Lost R410a during install. What's next?

[JenniferWillow]

I just installed a Pioneer 12,000 BTU mini-split in my bus this last weekend. Unfortunately, when I released the refrigerant into the system I found a substantial leak. I fixed the leak and got the system working but I'm sure it doesn't have enough refrigerant in it. I'm only measuring about 30 psi and I know that the PSI should be closer to 150.
This morning I thought it might be a good idea to get an HVAC tech out to refill the system with R410a. Every single place I called refused to work on it because it was installed in a motor home (I told them motor home rather than school bus just in case they are prejudiced). Every store that carries R410a wanted me to have an HVAC license and an EPA certification before selling to me.
This created a true Catch-22.
I found a place on-line to sell me the refrigerant and I guess I'll just top up the system myself over the weekend. Has anybody else run into this problem? What have you done to deal with it?

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by JenniferWillow

I just installed a Pioneer 12,000 BTU mini-split in my bus this last weekend. Unfortunately, when I released the refrigerant into the system I found a substantial leak. I fixed the leak and got the system working but I'm sure it doesn't have enough refrigerant in it. I'm only measuring about 30 psi and I know that the PSI should be closer to 150.
This morning I thought it might be a good idea to get an HVAC tech out to refill the system with R410a. Every single place I called refused to work on it because it was installed in a motor home (I told them motor home rather than school bus just in case they are prejudiced). Every store that carries R410a wanted me to have an HVAC license and an EPA certification before selling to me.
This created a true Catch-22.
I found a place on-line to sell me the refrigerant and I guess I'll just top up the system myself over the weekend. Has anybody else run into this problem? What have you done to deal with it?

thats distributors.. technically you dont need an EPA cert to buy R410A but many sellers have a policy just to require it for all..(andf technicaslly you need a license to actually use it.)


the only correct way to install R410A in a minisplit is to recover the rest of the charge and then recharge in by weight.. some of the nicer ones like mitsubishi and fujitsu have a testing cycle mode where you can charge by superheat but with a heat pump that has an accumulator thats not a correct way to charge one.. I only ever charge them by weight



I dont know of any home-style minisplit that has been approved by its manufacturer for use in a mobile evironment.. (though many many people use them and they work fine).. as such companies wont touch a DIY install in a motorhome as they dont want the hassle if something doesnt work right.. (in their mind they are thinking a botched install that will end up with come-backs and not much profit)..


best bet is if your community has a local page or group on social media you can reach out there in hopes of finding someone who is independent and can pump it up for you. if you were in central ohio I would do it.

[JenniferWillow]

Thanks, I do understand. It seems like every "professional", no matter the field, has a prejudice against anyone that attempts to do their job. Guess what? Some people are actually competent. I have a good deal of animosity towards folks with this attitude. I've been building things my entire life and I"m almost 70. During the pandemic I built a boat. On the river folks say it's the most beautiful boat they've seen on the river. I do good work. I know how to learn things. The one benefit of having a Ph.D is that you figure out how to learn things on your own.
I wish the install went perfectly. I was very frustrated that I couldn't do a positive pressure test first. The vacuum level test worked fine but it didn't hold when the pressure was increased. One of the gas connections inside the bus just started spewing gas and I lost much of the refrigerant. I actually completely replaced that line because I though the problem was a kink in the line (it wasn't). Once everything was assembled again the system worked but it only has 30psi and it should have closer to 150psi.
It seems like "professionals" want to punish anyone who dares too DIY. Sometimes you run into problems that you can't solve easily. I tried to install front shocks into my 4runner and I just don't weigh enough to compress the springs. I started the job, realized that I didn't weigh enough to compress the springs. It took me days to find a mechanic who would finish the work because "I started it myself". I had the system completely back to it's original state before I even started calling around but because "I had started it myself" most folks didn't want to touch it. I finally found a guy that would install them but the attitude I ran into really soured me on having "professionals" do the work.
I'll finish off the installation when the refrigerant arrives but I'll never bother trying to "get help" from anyone in that industry.
Sorry, I'm a little bitter about this. Sometimes it would be nice to just get a little help.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by JenniferWillow

Thanks, I do understand. It seems like every "professional", no matter the field, has a prejudice against anyone that attempts to do their job. Guess what? Some people are actually competent. I have a good deal of animosity towards folks with this attitude. I've been building things my entire life and I"m almost 70. During the pandemic I built a boat. On the river folks say it's the most beautiful boat they've seen on the river. I do good work. I know how to learn things. The one benefit of having a Ph.D is that you figure out how to learn things on your own.
I wish the install went perfectly. I was very frustrated that I couldn't do a positive pressure test first. The vacuum level test worked fine but it didn't hold when the pressure was increased. One of the gas connections inside the bus just started spewing gas and I lost much of the refrigerant. I actually completely replaced that line because I though the problem was a kink in the line (it wasn't). Once everything was assembled again the system worked but it only has 30psi and it should have closer to 150psi.
It seems like "professionals" want to punish anyone who dares too DIY. Sometimes you run into problems that you can't solve easily. I tried to install front shocks into my 4runner and I just don't weigh enough to compress the springs. I started the job, realized that I didn't weigh enough to compress the springs. It took me days to find a mechanic who would finish the work because "I started it myself". I had the system completely back to it's original state before I even started calling around but because "I had started it myself" most folks didn't want to touch it. I finally found a guy that would install them but the attitude I ran into really soured me on having "professionals" do the work.
I'll finish off the installation when the refrigerant arrives but I'll never bother trying to "get help" from anyone in that industry.
Sorry, I'm a little bitter about this. Sometimes it would be nice to just get a little help.

100%!!!
I was an HVAC tech turned engineer for years and I try wherever i can to help people complete their own HVAC projects because I know 99% of them are straight forward.. like I say if you were near me id be glad to fix up your unit and show you what I am doing while i do it..



I only gave the reasons given to me by the guys I know still in the business.. many of the guys will help on the side but some of their companies disallow it..



the flare fittings on minisplits are some of the most failure prone things out there.. many of the flares on the liens from the china factories are not deep enough or are flared crooked so a connection will feel tight when its not..



I use Nylog blue on all my flare connections.. and I also make new flares too.. flaring tools are easy to get (HVAC flares are different than brake flares)..



nylog blue can be ordered from amazon and its a solution you put on the flare which helps to seal it.. i have great luck using it..

[somewhereinusa]

I was in the same situation 10 years ago. Made a mistake, lost freon, fixed mistake, no one would recharge. Well, one would but wanted an arm and a leg and my second born. I might have given him my first born.
I don't have a PhD but, you don't need one to do this.
I bought the correct gauges, adapters and vacuum pump from HF. Bought the R410a online. You will need an accurate scale to do it right. Freon scales are expensive. Postal scales are cheap.
I haven't had any problems since I fixed it about 10 years ago.
I don't know where you are but, judging by your profile picture you must be near water. I'm not so, probably too far for me to help.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by somewhereinusa

I was in the same situation 10 years ago. Made a mistake, lost freon, fixed mistake, no one would recharge. Well, one would but wanted an arm and a leg and my second born. I might have given him my first born.
I don't have a PhD but, you don't need one to do this.
I bought the correct gauges, adapters and vacuum pump from HF. Bought the R410a online. You will need an accurate scale to do it right. Freon scales are expensive. Postal scales are cheap.
I haven't had any problems since I fixed it about 10 years ago.
I don't know where you are but, judging by your profile picture you must be near water. I'm not so, probably too far for me to help.

postal scale works good enough.. I have a real HVAC scale but a postal scale (the 70 lb version) works just fine..

[heimlich]

I was thinking about this same issue earlier when I was installing my pioneer mini split. I left the vacuum hose on it all night to see if it stayed at -30. I asked myself what happens if I need freon. I looked it up and in 2022 the EPA banned R410A to be banned next year. Because of that I wouldn't buy anything that used R410A. It will be expensive to replace later on.


Can you not charge R410A like you do with other freon? I've seen where they use the gauge and check how cold the vents get.

[cadillackid]

R410A will be around for awhile... theres a *LOT* of existing 410A equipment out there... theres still R22 systems out there.. I fixed a leak and recharged one this summer for a friend of a friend... you can still buy jugs of R22.. its pricey but its there..



if you are really concerned.. order a jug of R410A to keep around in case you need it... but my guess is R410A will still be around when most everyone who puts a minisplit in their bus today has it die... minisplits so far dotn have near the lifespan that traditional systems have... im seeing 10-15 years seems to be a good lifespan of these units... in a bus im guessing that will be average

[heimlich]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

R410A will be around for awhile... theres a *LOT* of existing 410A equipment out there... theres still R22 systems out there.. I fixed a leak and recharged one this summer for a friend of a friend... you can still buy jugs of R22.. its pricey but its there..



if you are really concerned.. order a jug of R410A to keep around in case you need it... but my guess is R410A will still be around when most everyone who puts a minisplit in their bus today has it die... minisplits so far dotn have near the lifespan that traditional systems have... im seeing 10-15 years seems to be a good lifespan of these units... in a bus im guessing that will be average

That's really reassuring. I have R22 system in my house and some people don't seem to carry R22 anymore. It's very expensive to buy. I switched out to window units but now I might do some minisplits like you did instead.

I just looked up R410A. It's been around a long time. Wow.

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

last year i had to get a jug of r22 and it was almost 2000$.
421 is not going anywhere anytime soon.
they started using an R454b refrigerant and york is already using and trane and mitsubishi will be using it as of this month. but it wasnt to expensive 700$ for a jug.
had to work on a brand new chiller that needed a little help that had it.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger bus 223

last year i had to get a jug of r22 and it was almost 2000$.
421 is not going anywhere anytime soon.
they started using an R454b refrigerant and york is already using and trane and mitsubishi will be using it as of this month. but it wasnt to expensive 700$ for a jug.
had to work on a brand new chiller that needed a little help that had it.

ive still got 2 30 lb jugs of R22 ive had forever... I use a couple pounds every few years... the 3rd jug is prob 1/3 full and I cracked it open probably 15 years ago..

[Albatross]

Whatever you do, don't notice the patent protection expiration and definitely don't compare it to the release of new refrigerant technologies... Just because the ozone hole above Antarctica is coming back doesn't mean anything at all, whatsoever.


Bossman of the shop bought a few R-22 bottles right before it became illegal to make in the USA, and I have faith that R-410 will be around for awhile.

[cadillackid]

What’s interesting about refrigerants is that 410a despite its higher pressures has much better thermal properties than R22 esp in heat pump applications .. R22 did not like high discharge temperatures that are required for heat pump applications .. 410A naturally does and the associated oils used with 410A were designed to not break down under high discharge temps..

Now we are going to mildly flammable refrigerants.. part hydrocarbon.. HC refrigerants have king proven themselves in thermal capacity over that of legacy .. however people were uneasy about flammables in any HVAC application .. though Ice plants have used HC (and ammonia) for decades ..

Conspiracy theorists would tie refrigerant changes to parents and now tool makers (you are required on the field as a contractor to buy new tools to work with flammables)…

I tend to look at the performance of refrigerants .. I may or may not have created my own blends purely for my own entertainment ..,it can be quite entertaining to see your breath on 100F days