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Old 07-07-2020, 03:20 PM   #21
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Jesus this got out of hand.

Take your bus to any shop with hvac equipment, they can install gauges and tell you if what you have needs recovered or not. If it's a significant amount, you should have it recovered, even though R134a is "safe" for the ozone compared to R12, it still causes global warming, so it shouldn't be vented and is illegal to do so. I've never heard of anybody being caught doing so, but why do it? Do it the right way and forget about it.

Secondly, you don't need to cut the hoses. Those hex nuts near the aluminum block should swivel on the hose ends. The hoses look to be inserted into compression fittings, so I don't know the reason for the additional clamps. But you shouldn't have to cut them to get that stuff apart.

Worst comes to worst and you might have to hold the swivel with a vise grips until the dirt/corrosion breaks free between it and the hex nut.

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Old 07-07-2020, 03:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman View Post
Knowingly venting to atmosphere is breaking the law for anybody -- not just "certified or licenced" professionals...

Will you get caught? No. Are you still breaking the law? Yes.

Are you a piece of sh!t for not caring about the environment -- I will of course say yes, but that's just my silly opinion about science, health and things of that nature...
Not to poke a hornets nest with a stick or anything.....

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Have you ever rolled through a stop sign? Have you ever carried your concealed weapon somewhere you weren't suppose to? Have you ever burned rubber at a stop sign/light? Have you ever had more to drink than you should have and gotten behind the wheel? Did you ever swipe a pack of gum from the five n dime when you were 5?

Just sayin...…….
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by JackE View Post
Not to poke a hornets nest with a stick or anything.....

Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Have you ever rolled through a stop sign? Have you ever carried your concealed weapon somewhere you weren't suppose to? Have you ever burned rubber at a stop sign/light? Have you ever had more to drink than you should have and gotten behind the wheel? Did you ever swipe a pack of gum from the five n dime when you were 5?

Just sayin...…….
........................ .......................
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:17 PM   #24
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no the EPA likely wont come to your house is you lose the A/C charge.. no the world isnt going to burn up in a ball of flame if you lose 7 lbs of R-134A..



I worked in the HVAC business for a number of years and as many of you know I still work on quite a few systems for people's homes / businesses / and especially Busses..



I have my current EPA certs ,608s and 609 universal..



while im not going to go pull out my manual and paste the lines from the book about refrigerants, the Venting law has to do with **HOW** the substance is used not WHAT it is..



any substance used as a refrigerant is illegal to vent.. meaning that I could charge an A/C with propane (yes it will cool believe it or not.. ).. and its ILLEGAL to vent that propane whereas you *MAY* be able to vent propane from a tank to clear air from the lines legally when its not used as a refrigerant..



now onto this system tear down..



regardless of the Greenies or the former HVAC pros telling you not to vent a system, its downright dangerous to do so..



1. most refrigerants are heavier than air.. take that system apart and there is very little ventilation or breezer or you vent it inside the bus.. you can suffocate..



2. you dont know whats in there? remember how I said you could charge it with propane and it would get cold? you just stick a hose on and vent 7 lbs of propane into your engine compartment or bus interior...



3. any refrigerant in Liquid form can burn or if you accidentilly breathe in the liquid to your lungs it can frost bite your lungs.. on your hands it can burn quickly..





any of the above is not liekly to happen but it could..



I was working on a 120 Ton liebert, system had 3 40 ton compressors and 2 8 foot condensor fans.. you actually sat inside the high side condensing unit to service it. unit tossed a fan belt which got gobbled up by the other fan.. both fans stopped.. and before the high pressure switch could shut the whole thing down a vibration eliminator exploded.. 90 pounds of freon in less than a minute.. my gloves, long sleeves and full face shield are what saved me from serious injury.. my jacket and parts of my face shield were frosty when I made it out of there...



Be safe out there working on your air conditioner..


this stuff is real..


-Christopher
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Old 07-10-2020, 12:10 AM   #25
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What follows is a discussion of the laws governing refrigerants and technicians who work on air-conditioning systems. Most people will find it tedious. So feel free to skip it.

I like to try to read the laws for myself, but more often than not I find it an unpleasant exercise. This is proving to be the case with the laws governing who can work on A/C systems and the regulations governing refrigerants. After reading several conflicting interpretations, I have concluded that section 608 of the Clean Air Act does in fact prohibit the discharge of refrigerants, including non-exempt substitute refrigerants, of which r-134a is one.

40 CFR § 82.161 seems to be the relevant law governing who can work on said equipment.

At first glance 40 CFR § 82.16 seems pretty clear, however I believe that there is some room for the idea that the owner of a vehicle is not a technician as indicated (see the paragraph at the end of this section):

§ 82.161 Technician certification.
Until January 1, 2018, this section applies only to technicians and organizations certifying technicians that maintain, service, or repair appliances containing class I or class II refrigerants. Starting on January 1, 2018, this section applies to technicians and organizations certifying technicians that maintain, service, or repair appliances containing any class I or class II refrigerant or any non-exempt substitute refrigerant.

(a) Certification Requirements.

(1) Any person who could be reasonably expected to violate the integrity of the refrigerant circuit during the maintenance, service, repair, or disposal of appliances (as follows in this paragraph) containing a class I or class II refrigerant or a non-exempt substitute refrigerant must pass a certification exam offered by an approved technician certification program.

(i) Persons who maintain, service, or repair small appliances must be certified as Type I technicians.

(ii) Persons who maintain, service, repair, or dispose of medium-, high-, or very high-pressure appliances (except small appliances, MVACs, and MVAC-like appliances) must be certified as Type II technicians.

(iii) Persons who maintain, service, repair, or dispose of low-pressure appliances must be certified as Type III technicians.

(iv) Persons who maintain, service, repair, or dispose of all appliances described in paragraph (a)(1)(i) through (iii) of this section must be certified as Universal technicians.

(v) Technicians who maintain, service, or repair MVAC-like appliances must either be certified as Type II technicians or be certified in accordance with 40 CFR part 82, subpart B.

(vi) Persons who maintain, service, or repair MVAC appliances for consideration must be certified in accordance with 40 CFR part 82, subpart B.

(vii) Persons who dispose of small appliances, MVACs, and MVAC-like appliances are not required to be certified.

(2) Apprentices are exempt from the requirement in paragraph (a)(1) of this section provided the apprentice is closely and continually supervised by a certified technician while performing any maintenance, service, repair, or disposal that could reasonably be expected to release refrigerant from an appliance into the environment, except those substitute refrigerants exempted under paragraph (a)(1) of this section. The supervising certified technician and the apprentice have the responsibility to ensure that the apprentice complies with this subpart.

(3) The Administrator may require technicians to demonstrate at their place of business their ability to perform proper procedures for recovering and/or recycling refrigerant, except those substitute refrigerants exempted under paragraph (a)(1) of this section. Failure to demonstrate or failure to properly use the equipment may result in revocation or suspension of the certificate. Failure to abide by any of the provisions of this subpart may also result in revocation or suspension of the certificate. If a technician's certificate is revoked, the technician would need to recertify before maintaining, servicing, repairing, or disposing of any appliances.

(4) (i) Technicians certified under this section must keep a copy of their certificate at their place of business.

(ii) Technicians must maintain a copy of their certificate until three years after no longer operating as a technician.


Definition of the term technician as used in 40 CFR § 82.161


Quote:
Technician means any person who performs testing, maintenance, service, or repair that could reasonably be expected to release halons from equipment into the atmosphere. Technician also means any person who performs disposal of equipment that could reasonably be expected to release halons from the equipment into the atmosphere. Technician includes but is not limited to installers, contractor employees, in-house service personnel, and in some cases, owners.
Since I believe that the laws should always be interpreted to favor individual liberty, I am concluding that an owner is not a technician as contemplated by 40 CFR § 82.161, and therefore not subject to the regulations herein. I could be convinced otherwise if I were to encounter case law which show that courts have found consistently otherwise, but in the meantime I am going to act like a man in possession of a broad set of liberties.
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Old 07-10-2020, 12:27 AM   #26
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As to cutting hoses. I have not cut any hoses. I came here seeking information with the hope that I would not have to cut any hoses. I find that the pictures that I take of my work are often quite helpful, because in reviewing them on the 4k screen of my desktop computer I can often see more detail than I can when I am sticking my head in some tight place at an unnatural angle. That was what happened in this case. At first I thought that the hose barbs were one piece units to which the hoses were clamped after the barbs were screwed in place. After Ted mentioned that there might be isolation valves, I reviewed the pictures and realized that the barb is probably a two piece unit with a tube and a nut that are such that the nut can be turned independent of the tube.
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Old 07-10-2020, 12:42 AM   #27
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Thanks Christopher, Mountain Gnome, Ted and others who have provided the kind of useful information I have come to expect from this forum. And thanks to all the rest for making this a great social experience as well.
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Old 07-15-2020, 06:33 PM   #28
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It might save you money if you could become certified and get some basic tools to work on you own system. When I was scrapping out buses I took an online course to be a certified part 609 mobile technician. I got mine from macs mobile air conditioning something. Macs.com. It was only $20 and it was an online open book exam. It wasn't easy though. I am really good at taking tests and it took about three hours. Essentially you are given a set of regs and the questions are very specific and you need to match up the multiple choice answers given with the exact words in the regs. After you get certified you are able to buy parts and tanks not available to the general public. This doesn't really tech you anything so you still have to figure out what you are doing from sites like this or YouTube.
Next I got a set of manifold gauges from harbor freight for about $60. Quality doesn't matter much if you are not doing it for a living.

Then I got a recovery machine to evacuate the system. It is capable of sucking out many pounds of refrigerant and reliquifying it into a tank. I got an appion brand used for about $400 but that was 15 years ago. I don't know what they might go for now.

The last thing I got was an empty refrigerant tank. They look just like a propane tank but have two valves. Do not try to use an empty 134a tank they are meant to contain room temp refrigerant at standard pressures only.
If you do this you have control over your whole refrigerant chain. You take it out, store it, have it tested by taking the tank to an ac shop if needed, and if contaminated they can suck it out of your tank and legally dispose of it. I got mine for about $75 used. There are different sizes so get one that can hold at least the amount your bus holds.
You may also need an accurate scale to measure the amount you put back into the system.
You probably won't save much money by doing this but if you are like me you end up with a bunch of tools and the knowledge of how to use them.
This is also not quick, it takes a while to look for really good deals to come up on Craigslist. You might be able to help your fellow skoolie. If anyone in the Sacramento area wants to borrow my setup I would be happy to lend it to them.
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:11 PM   #29
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I encourage knowledge for sure ! Whether you buy your own tools is really if you have a need or not, I was in the HVAC industry so I took various classes and keep my certs up. I worked on everything from 2 ton household to 150 ton rooftops and even did some chiller work back then it was damn old trane chillers with faulty slide valves ugh!

Anyway only buy the tools if you plan on working on lots of stuff.. and learning how it works and the proper way to charge it..
so many bus AC I get (people seem to gravitate toward me to fix their AC), the units are mis charged .. either over , under or with lots of contaminates. That’s the kind of stuff which ruins compressors.

Make the effort to learn the proper way to evacuate and charge a system . If the weight is listed great, if not then learn to gauge charge .. and no it’s not just pumping Freon in till the air is cold..
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Old 07-15-2020, 11:32 PM   #30
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:51 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demoman View Post
Do not try to use an empty 134a tank they are meant to contain room temp refrigerant at standard pressures only.
You physically can't use one of the empty r134a tanks. I believe those containers all have a check valve installed in them that keeps a person from doing that. Maybe an old r12 tank or on from another type of refrigerant, but I know most r134a and r22 tanks made within the last 20 years has the check valve.

Not only is it for your protection to keep one from overcharging a tank, it's to keep the new refrigerant in the tank pure and contaminant free. I also heard rumors that there were people who were taking skids of new virgin tanks, removing the refrigerant, replacing it with propane, and then reselling the tank still as new. This was going on with the more expensive refrigerants like r12, but it's still a possibility.

Also, if you're serious about doing ac work, a scale isn't really an option, but a necessity. Especially for evacuation purposes.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:08 AM   #32
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correct, those are disposable cylinders and are required to have a check valve.. peoiple were converting them to air tanks years ago and moisture was rusting them out and injuries occured.. another reason I believe they installed valves..


a scale is a MUST.. I charge by weight on many units.. i really hate re-using any refrigerant I recover out of a system unbless I charged it in.. no idea what peoiple put in there..



-Christopher
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:07 PM   #33
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Yes a shop can and will likely reuse and sell refrigerate to another customer. The only risk involved is of someone has changed the system with something other than R134A. That risk is usually removed before they evacuate your system with the use of a refrigerant identifier. Most shops will check before taking the chance of contamination of their equipment.
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Old 07-16-2020, 12:23 PM   #34
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Scale needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
You physically can't use one of the empty r134a tanks. I believe those containers all have a check valve installed in them that keeps a person from doing that. Maybe an old r12 tank or on from another type of refrigerant, but I know most r134a and r22 tanks made within the last 20 years has the check valve.

Not only is it for your protection to keep one from overcharging a tank, it's to keep the new refrigerant in the tank pure and contaminant free. I also heard rumors that there were people who were taking skids of new virgin tanks, removing the refrigerant, replacing it with propane, and then reselling the tank still as new. This was going on with the more expensive refrigerants like r12, but it's still a possibility.

Also, if you're serious about doing ac work, a scale isn't really an option, but a necessity. Especially for evacuation purposes.
You said a scale is needed for evacuation purposes. I know it is needed to keep track of how much you put in to a system but why is it needed for evacuation? Is it to see how much was taken out so you can recharge with the same amount?
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Old 07-16-2020, 06:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demoman View Post
You said a scale is needed for evacuation purposes. I know it is needed to keep track of how much you put in to a system but why is it needed for evacuation? Is it to see how much was taken out so you can recharge with the same amount?
Well, tanks are rated at a certain capacity. It's best practice not to overfill them.

It's also nice to have an idea of current charge level and compare it to system capacity. Sometimes, finding the system capacity isn't readily available, so the best way to do it is to recharge with how much was removed.
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