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Old 12-19-2020, 12:49 AM   #21
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I can find them down to 2 gallons ... but for a system consisting of a heater core, coolant heater, water lines, and maybe a water pump ... 2 gallons is waaayyyy over sized. I have not yet done the calculations to determine exactly how much coolant all those components will hold. Once I have that, I'll be able to accurately determine the size of expansion tank needed.

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Old 12-19-2020, 01:13 AM   #22
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Hmm, yeah. I forget what the system coolant capacity is for my bus, but it's a reasonable amount. A 2 gal might seem overkill, but as you say, hard to find anything smaller. It should be OK, right?
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Old 12-19-2020, 01:24 AM   #23
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Right now,wehave no heater lines and The Beast takes 6.5 gallons of coolant. Somewhere, I read that an expansion tankshould be 10% to 20% of the volume of the system before adding the expansion tank. Thus, if I were adding a tank for the ENGINE, it would be sized between two quarts and 5 quarts. The system I am designing is for the heater loop inside the bus which *might* end up being 2 gallons TOTAL (this us a SWAG) so that a properly sized expansion tank would be at most less than a half gallon. But sure ... bigger is okay, just a waste of space.
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Old 12-19-2020, 07:20 AM   #24
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A lot of modern cars use expansion tanks instead of overflow bottles. They can be found with various inlets and outlet locations and sizes.

Some of them receive a 3/8" sized air/coolant bleed line from the thermostat housing, which will have hot coolant through it. And with coolant temps in modern cars running 230+, the plastic they use must be rated pretty high.

For instance, I have an expansion tank on my underbody generator. It was a new piece from dorman for 30 bucks and it fits 2006-2012 gm cars. The tank has 2 ports, the bottom one is 5/8 and connects to the lower radiator hose, the top one is 1/4 and is connected to the engine beneath the thermostat. This way it has a circulation loop to bleed air from the system easily. It's also clear, which is nice so I can see the coolant level easily.

You can find these tanks for multiple vehicles with different ports and what not.

Worst case scenario, you make your own out of a steel tank.
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:09 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Native View Post
I am having a difficult time locating an expansion tank (looking for a bladder tank) that is rated in excess of 200 degrees (F).


Where did you get yours?


What type?


How much?

think race-car / hot rod expansion tanks, mine is aluminum, it came from amazon.. it is small. but thus far seems to be enough to keep both pumps primed . (I installed an auxilliary pump as i found it was possible to air-lock the heater so downstream is a small davies-craig pump thaty turns on when it senses the other pump is on (relay driven from the heater pump circuit).



the style pumps used in these heaters and widely avsailable online have ZERO ability to prime thermselves.. they absolutely have to stay flooded or they will drop prime. so even a little air in the system can let that impeller spin dry and unless gravity feeds it enough liquid it will just fling what little it has off the impeller. the built-in bus heater pumps are the same way.. when i looked for self priming pumps i came up pretty much empty. masny arent designed for any liquid over 140f, they are diaphram type pumps generally for marine or agricultural use.. apparently the diaphrams cant handle the high temperatures?? not sure but the few I inquired about said they were designed for fresh water.. others said they werent designed for continuous duty..



seeing that its winter up here in ohio im using my system every day now.. the bus does get plugged in for the block heat. but im preheating my cabin heater loops every morning with the VVKB. so when i get in to drive i just fire up the fans and instant heat.. if my trip is short I leave thre VVKB on while im driving.. since its cut-out is 80c, it cuts out just before the engine thermostat opens which is nice because if im driving slow my engine is not wasting heat to the radiator.. the VVKB cuts back in at 60c if im either idling and taking away too much heat or if I shut the bus off to hang out..



if I hop on the freeway then of courser the bus tstat opoens to the radiator.. my auto shutters stay closed until 195f or so, they rarely open unless im on the freeway for more than 15-20 minutes, otherwise thats reserve heat for me when I park.. shutters closed radiator hot till the engine tstat closes back up..





the expansion tank came with a 0.9 bar cap, the bus system runs with a 7 PSI cap.. which gave me about 4-5 PSI higher blow-off on the expansion than the bus system.. that was mistake number 1, I flooded the back of the bus the first time i drove it.. turns out the bus water pump and heater boost pump at high RPM send a LOT of flow down those heater loops.. even with me having 4 or 5 heater cores it blew right past that cap..



I got a 30 PSI racing cap... tested cap pressures (after I removed the tank from the system just so I could drive the bus with heat.. ).. a bicycle pump pressurizing that tank on the bench. so I could see exactly what the caps blow off at.. turns out the 0.9 bar chinese cap blew off at 10 PSI.. the one I got from Jegs actually does blow off at 30 PSI.. so far no floods..

technically you dont need a blow-off at all as when you are driving you are only under the water pump drive and the bus cooling system pressure.. and then when parked your webasto shuts off well before you shoiuld be making any kind of serious pressure inside.. and the expansion tank will take up the slack. when cold that expansion tank should be down low in level.. and when hot it should fill up.. you dont ewant to fill it completely full when cold or the purpose of expansion is defeated.



this is the tank I got.. whether its enough capacity or not, time will tell as also whether my coolant distribution stays good or will i end up with the levels getting wrong.. I made sure the expansion tank is below the level of the navistar tank.. I have it installed on top of the chair rail in the bus so theoretically it wont go completely empty when driving the bus.



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1




thanks for the info on K-line!, I need to learn more about it.. in control lines I like driving relays with MOSFETS where i can or at least a transistor circuit.. I typically use really large gate resistors to limit the current surge on whatever line im using to fire the MOSFET. Ive done a lot of protocol hacking and such over the years.. I hacked the minisplit protocols 11 years ago when I built the advanced zoned HVAC in my house.. oddly enough in the minisplits the wired-protocol on mine are identical to the wireless remote.. standard pulse-distance encoding and bi-directional on one-wire. when you want to transmit you hold the line low for 500ms and that throws the other end into receive mode.. when done transmitting you finish off ewith a 1000ms low which tells the other end you are done. their error-checking was sending all the data MSB first and then repeating it backwards.. LSB first.. if you could compare the frames backward and forward to come up with the same then you knew that frame was good. the minisplits use little ATMEL micros.. ther comms line for the wired wall thermostat stayed at TTL levels.. they just had Optos at each end to isolate the micros. the comms from outside unit to inside unit they ran through Optos at TTL level and then through level converters to a carrier of 30 VDC.. not sure how they came upon 30 VDC. but thats where it resides.. all i wanted to do on the inside-outside was monitor so I picked up the TTL level signal between the opto and the level converter. using a ZBASIC.NET chip (back then was an advanced version of a basic stamp.. arduino wasnt out yet).. the ZBASIC chips are swiss army knives. with built in dallas 1-wire, D/A, A/D, PWM, and of course digital I/O. you could be up and running really quick with just a little support circuitry.. or even less if you boiught one of their development boards which had all the support circuitry built in.. it programs similar to Visual basic (remember think mid 00's)...



-Christopher
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:28 AM   #26
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If you use two expansion tanks they have to be on the same height.
Otherwise the liquid of the highest tank will overflow the lowest incase both caps are off , or you have a very small airleak in either of the caps.

I can completely insulate the engine from the heater cores with two valves but only one valve is required to stop the flow to the engine. With only closing one valve you only need the original expansion tank.

The front ,windshield defroster heater, and the rear heater are in parallel and with a tee connect to the engine. The webasto is in that heater loop.

Closing of one valve to the engine allows the coolant to circulate thru the heater loop..front and rear... Opening up one valve ( assuming the other stays open all the time ) allows coolant also thru the engine.

When you hook it up be sure that the direction of flow from the webasto is in the same direction as the engine block flow otherwise the webasto can cut out because lack of flow.

Good luck,
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Old 12-19-2020, 08:46 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by joeblack5 View Post
If you use two expansion tanks they have to be on the same height.
Otherwise the liquid of the highest tank will overflow the lowest incase both caps are off , or you have a very small airleak in either of the caps.

I can completely insulate the engine from the heater cores with two valves but only one valve is required to stop the flow to the engine. With only closing one valve you only need the original expansion tank.

The front ,windshield defroster heater, and the rear heater are in parallel and with a tee connect to the engine. The webasto is in that heater loop.

Closing of one valve to the engine allows the coolant to circulate thru the heater loop..front and rear... Opening up one valve ( assuming the other stays open all the time ) allows coolant also thru the engine.

When you hook it up be sure that the direction of flow from the webasto is in the same direction as the engine block flow otherwise the webasto can cut out because lack of flow.

Good luck,
Johan

with a buffer of air in the top of each tank shouldnt that keep one from filling full? I had tried keeping one valve open overnight when the system cooled and i still ended up coolant deficient.. my valves are backwards.. they are NC electrics so I had to keep one powered all night.. technically i should probably use NO valves and power them closed.. (the HVAC scenerio of always Fail-into-heat). piping my heater in full parallel ended up that i never got flow to all my heater cores.. the heater water of course took the path of least resistance so it would pump water through either the front or the rear heater core but never both.. carpenter busses use a full parallel flow heasting system. 2 1 inch trunks running the length of the bus and you peel off an inlet and outlet for each heater core..



my webasto is piped such that I take its inlet and outlet from the supply line trunk.. using Y-fittings to proote coolant flow into anbd out of the heater.. and a check-valve so the heater cant pump backwards into itself.. this way when the heater is off the path of least resistance is through the check valve .. when the heater is on its pump sucks water from the supply , therough the heater and then pushes it back out into the supply.. any extra flow can still go through the check valve toward the back of the bus. the heater sits at the lowest point gravity-wise in the bus.. (its under the floor. and I made sure its hoses dont loop into "traps")..



I had thought like you if I left one valve open i would have free-flow of coolant back into the cabin loops as the bus cooled down from a drive.. but I still ended up with a dry pump and the heater luckily has a protection system in it that if it detects the coolant temperature rising too fast in comparison to the heat chamber temp then it shuts down assuming that there is no water flow in the heater...
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Old 12-19-2020, 09:32 AM   #28
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Chris, is your main expansion tank lower then the heater loop? I guess I do not understand how these pipes go dry and get a dry running pump

In Dory the heater coils are on the roof, so to fill the system you have to have a pump to get the coolant to the roof level. If there is a minute air leak the water would slowly leak back .

Yes. That is why I installed my webasto in series with the last heater. So with the engine close of the coolant circulates thru the rear then thru the front and comes back to the webasto.. with the engine connected that becomes the parallel path so not much heat goes in the engine but enough to get the temp gauge out of the zero...luke warm.

The engine coolant pump seems to be powerfully enough to get the coolant pump to the front of Dory. There used to be an electric pump but I eliminated it after it started leaking. The electric coolant pump to the roof is there, not sure if that is required but I wanted one anyhow to circulate coolant once I have my webasto interfaced in dory.

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Old 12-19-2020, 11:19 AM   #29
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I'm not sure how your heater is set up christopher, but this is how mine is.



The isolation valves in the pictures are either ball or gate valves, and they're in the engine compartment, near the engine, and used to isolate the heater system from the cooling system. Every bus that I've seen has these. I also have a 3rd gate valve near the driver's left knee that the driver uses to control/modulate coolant flow for the heaters. This isn't on every bus though.

To install a webasto on my bus, I would eliminate the driver's gate valve, Install the webasto on the heater return, and install a 3 way L style ball valve before the passenger side defrost heater core. I'd put the 3 way valve on the floor near the heater core, so you can turn the valve to the desired position every time you get in the bus.


You'd lose the ability to modulate the heat from the driver's seat, but I've never found myself doing that anyways, it's either on or off. With the 3 way valve like it's shown, the system would function like it normally would.

With the webasto turned on though. The system would look like this.


Heat would go to the engine first, then through the heater cores, and back to the webasto.

If you don't want to heat the engine, turn the valve on the floor to the other way, and the engine system is essentially isolated flow wise from the heater system.


This would allow you to heat the interior with the webasto, without loosing heat to the engine. Warm your interior this way, climb in the bus and turn the valve, and your engine will then take over heating the bus.

I'm not a fan of the 2 expansion tanks on one system, I've seen radiator caps fail too often for me to trust it. But I would think a buffer of air in your second tank would be fine for awhile so long as that tank is sealed from the atmosphere. Eventually though, the air in the 2nd tank will disappear without having the air buffer being in a separate bladder.

If you do run 2 tanks, don't leave the caps off over night ever, or the system will overflow which ever tank is lower at the time.

What I don't understand is how your cooling system wouldn't accomodate for pressure variations with just one valve in the cooling loop. With a supply and return hose, it should always have access to the cooling system volume with only one of those hoses blocked off.
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Old 12-19-2020, 12:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
thanks for the info on K-line!, I need to learn more about it.. in control lines I like driving relays with MOSFETS where i can or at least a transistor circuit.. I typically use really large gate resistors to limit the current surge on whatever line im using to fire the MOSFET. Ive done a lot of protocol hacking and such over the years..
I will share the schematics soon for the simple device and also the second design I'm working on, which essentially is a full OBD-II dongle (again to USB) that's based on the pre-programmed PIC processors from OBD Solutions. They have premade ones out, but they cost around $50, and I think that's just a bit ridiculous... I may not ever spin boards for that one, but I like to tinker anyways, and it gives me plenty of ideas, including their K-line interface (all transistor-based), and also their power conversion with protection on the battery power line (nominally 12V).

I definitely will be working in suitable protection circuits, and yes, any lines intended to drive relays will be using MOSFETs for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
I hacked the minisplit protocols 11 years ago when I built the advanced zoned HVAC in my house.. oddly enough in the minisplits the wired-protocol on mine are identical to the wireless remote.. standard pulse-distance encoding and bi-directional on one-wire. when you want to transmit you hold the line low for 500ms and that throws the other end into receive mode.. when done transmitting you finish off ewith a 1000ms low which tells the other end you are done. their error-checking was sending all the data MSB first and then repeating it backwards.. LSB first.. if you could compare the frames backward and forward to come up with the same then you knew that frame was good. the minisplits use little ATMEL micros.. ther comms line for the wired wall thermostat stayed at TTL levels.. they just had Optos at each end to isolate the micros. the comms from outside unit to inside unit they ran through Optos at TTL level and then through level converters to a carrier of 30 VDC.. not sure how they came upon 30 VDC. but thats where it resides.. all i wanted to do on the inside-outside was monitor so I picked up the TTL level signal between the opto and the level converter. using a ZBASIC.NET chip (back then was an advanced version of a basic stamp.. arduino wasnt out yet).. the ZBASIC chips are swiss army knives. with built in dallas 1-wire, D/A, A/D, PWM, and of course digital I/O. you could be up and running really quick with just a little support circuitry.. or even less if you boiught one of their development boards which had all the support circuitry built in.. it programs similar to Visual basic (remember think mid 00's)...
Oh my... would you happen to have schematics around for your solution here? I am currently planning to leave in the minisplit (Carrier EM-2 is the evaporator, CM-2 (I expect) is the condenser) that is in my wee bus. As long as it's working, it's all in place and is the "right" size for the bus... 40k BTU total, and the bus is 19 ft bumper to bumper. It would be nice to have the controls for that swept up into my "control/telemetry" box, which will be either RaspberryPi or just some small NUC-sized Linux box one way or another. Not really looking forward to designing the frontend to run on the tablet, but that's an entirely different issue

I also lucked out last night. I actually found a site with the custom PIDs for the 6.5L turbo diesel (+ transmission) available specifically in the format used by Torque Pro! YOINK! That will be nice to see running once I have the bus in my hands again. It includes such gems as: Engine Run Time, Fuel Temp, Fuel Rate, Transmission Fluid Temp (!), Transmission shaft speeds (input and output), Boost Pressure, Barometric Pressure.... Woohoo!

It is at: 6.5L EFI Diagnostic Scanning for DIY Owners
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:32 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
think race-car / hot rod expansion tanks, mine is aluminum, it came from amazon.. it is small. but thus far seems to be enough to keep both pumps primed . (I installed an auxilliary pump as i found it was possible to air-lock the heater so downstream is a small davies-craig pump thaty turns on when it senses the other pump is on (relay driven from the heater pump circuit).


this is the tank I got.. whether its enough capacity or not, time will tell as also whether my coolant distribution stays good or will i end up with the levels getting wrong.. I made sure the expansion tank is below the level of the navistar tank.. I have it installed on top of the chair rail in the bus so theoretically it wont go completely empty when driving the bus.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thank you for the link to the unit you used.
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:34 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
I'm not sure how your heater is set up christopher, but this is how mine is.



The isolation valves in the pictures are either ball or gate valves, and they're in the engine compartment, near the engine, and used to isolate the heater system from the cooling system. Every bus that I've seen has these. I also have a 3rd gate valve near the driver's left knee that the driver uses to control/modulate coolant flow for the heaters. This isn't on every bus though.

To install a webasto on my bus, I would eliminate the driver's gate valve, Install the webasto on the heater return, and install a 3 way L style ball valve before the passenger side defrost heater core. I'd put the 3 way valve on the floor near the heater core, so you can turn the valve to the desired position every time you get in the bus.


You'd lose the ability to modulate the heat from the driver's seat, but I've never found myself doing that anyways, it's either on or off. With the 3 way valve like it's shown, the system would function like it normally would.

With the webasto turned on though. The system would look like this.


Heat would go to the engine first, then through the heater cores, and back to the webasto.

If you don't want to heat the engine, turn the valve on the floor to the other way, and the engine system is essentially isolated flow wise from the heater system.


This would allow you to heat the interior with the webasto, without loosing heat to the engine. Warm your interior this way, climb in the bus and turn the valve, and your engine will then take over heating the bus.

I'm not a fan of the 2 expansion tanks on one system, I've seen radiator caps fail too often for me to trust it. But I would think a buffer of air in your second tank would be fine for awhile so long as that tank is sealed from the atmosphere. Eventually though, the air in the 2nd tank will disappear without having the air buffer being in a separate bladder.

If you do run 2 tanks, don't leave the caps off over night ever, or the system will overflow which ever tank is lower at the time.

What I don't understand is how your cooling system wouldn't accomodate for pressure variations with just one valve in the cooling loop. With a supply and return hose, it should always have access to the cooling system volume with only one of those hoses blocked off.

I like this, straight-forward and simple.
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:40 PM   #33
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Thank you for the link to the unit you used.
Yeah, that went on my amazon wishlist so I don't lose it for later. Thanks, Chris.
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Old 12-19-2020, 02:43 PM   #34
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I also just found this 1L unit...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085NCY2S8

I like the sight valve on the side of that, it's a nice feature. Just have to figure out where I'd mount either unit, really.
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Old 12-19-2020, 06:01 PM   #35
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Booyah - I need to draw mine out..I got to get some good software for this.. what did you use? visio?



I dont want manual valves.. I modulate my heat from the driver seat all the time and also want to be able to modulate it remotely.. ie remember im running electric valves, i want the ability to be able to start my webasto to heat just the cabin loops or to heat the caboin and engine loops. and to be able to do it from afar.. when my bus is parked in the "barn" storage unit I have electricity so I can plug the block heater in.. but many times im parked in a hotel parking lot and at the end of it where no one else parks.. being able to grab my phone when im just getting out of bed to preheat the bus is my desire.. if im going to drive it ill turn on the valves to let the engine heat too.. if im just going to work in the lab then i'll turn on the heater and not the valves.. (or mnaybe the heater and a fan or two to warm the cabin up)...


m circuitry is different than yours.. mine is full parallel flow.. yours is series.. blue bird used series flow.. carpenter and Superior used parallel flow... , the DEV bus is carpenter.. the driver ball valve is gone when I replaced that heater box.. the only valves i have are the 2 underhood ones and they are electric with a switch on my dash to turn on heat or turn it off..



i'll try and draw it up to give you an idea of what it is and how I have it set up..



-Christopher
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Old 12-19-2020, 09:04 PM   #36
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Those are quick sketches in microsoft paint. I've tried using visio, autocad, smartdraw, etc. I just don't use those programs enough to become familiar with them, so paint it is. I drew that in a matter of minutes, whereas it would have taken me closer to an hour in any other program.

Granted, something complex or more precise would require a better program, but for simple diagrams to show setups, I've found paint to be the easiest.

I thought your dev was a bluebird, parallel flow would make it more complex, but you still have a single supply and return from the engine. Maybe a 3 way L valve on a stepper motor? IDK, I'm a mechanical kind of guy, I'd love to get into Arduino and bring to life some of the crazier ideas in my head, but I'm behind enough at work, let alone all the other side projects I've got.
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Old 12-19-2020, 09:08 PM   #37
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Definitely draw it up though, it's easier to view and understand sketches then it is to understand an explanation.
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Old 12-19-2020, 11:43 PM   #38
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Definitely draw it up though, it's easier to view and understand sketches then it is to understand an explanation.
I'll second that notion! You nailed it with your diagrams.
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Old 12-20-2020, 01:26 AM   #39
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Engine: 6.5L Turbo Diesel
Rated Cap: 19
Attached is what I'm pondering over connecting like. I'm aware that this may be over-complicated, and in reality, I may just put the Webasto in the "simple" method where it's always flowing through the entire coolant loop, but I do kind of want the option to run only through the engine (pre-warming for cold start avoidance), and also to run only through the heater blocks (when parked for cabin heat). What think ye?

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Old 12-20-2020, 01:28 AM   #40
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Port Huron, MI
Posts: 194
Year: 1999
Coachwork: MidBus
Chassis: Chevy Express 3500
Engine: 6.5L Turbo Diesel
Rated Cap: 19
Hmm, I just realized a possibly fatal flaw. Let me try that again.
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