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Old 05-20-2024, 01:41 PM   #1
Mini-Skoolie
 
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Question Help with Wabco Power Brake System

2008 International BE200 with VT365 13k original miles.

Bus uses a Wabco Hydraulic Power Brake system. (MM0401)

Bus wont crank.
Getting Parking Brake, ABS Light and Brake Pressure Light.

Checked codes and got the following:

Fault Code: 2580-10
Source: 11 (Brakes Controller)
SPN: 2580
FMI: 10
Lamp: Stop
Occurrence: 2
Desc: Hydraulic Brake Pressure Circuit 1. Abnormal Rate Of Change.

2580-6 Brakes Controller - Hydraulic Brake Pressure Circuit 1. Current Above Normal or Grounded Circuit

639-9 Brakes Controller - J1393 Network #1, Primary Vehicle Network. Abnormal Update Rate

639-14 Body Controller - J1939 Network #1, Primary Vehicle Network. Special Instructions Needed


Attempted the following with my very limited skill:
  • Cleaned all ground terminals and reconnected
  • Replaced 30a fuse on Firewall
  • Replaced Batteries and checked all fuses connected to battery harness.
  • While off, removed Brake reservoir cap, pumped brakes 30 times. Turned key to On.
  • Unplugged and checked/cleaned all connections to HCU, reservoir, parking brake

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Old 05-20-2024, 03:05 PM   #2
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Location: Central Tx.
Posts: 2,091
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E HT 250HP - Md3060
Can't help you with this but here is a link to the WABCO HPB maintenance manual.
It is over 4 megs so can't upload it here.

https://graphicvillage.org/meritor/MM0401.pdf

hope it helps!
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Old 05-20-2024, 06:33 PM   #3
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Big thank you for that and also on another post you posted the Wiring Diagram for this which I'm combing through now.

Random but, you would happen to know what the 'Terminal' location in the wiring diagram when it says something like this:

CAV CIR GAUGE COLOR TERMINAL
A J14C 12 RD 1661708C1


I'm trying to wire trace all wires associated with this Brake system to check for issues.
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Old 05-20-2024, 07:56 PM   #4
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easy...

CAV CIR GAUGE COLOR TERMINAL
A J14C 12 RD 1661708C1

CAV=cavity - A ???
Cir = circuit -> J14c

Gauge=wire size -> 12 gauge wire

Color =rd -> wire is red

Terminal = terminal number -> 1661708c1

what page is this info on, I'll take a look and see...
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Old 05-20-2024, 08:14 PM   #5
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Engine: DT466E HT 250HP - Md3060
Point me to the thread where the wiring diagram you say I posted is...please.

Also, here's some more technical reading for you.
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Old 05-21-2024, 07:50 AM   #6
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https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f37/n...ams-41786.html

Part 1 page 21 - Looking at the K14 and the J14 lines. Cant tell if the item connected to the crank motor solenoid is a relay or not.

The item I referenced before is Part 2 Page 68 - I'm thinking this connects to the above K14 and J14 lines?

I tested this 30a fuse and was only getting 9v to it with key off. Not sure if that is normal.
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Old 05-21-2024, 11:58 AM   #7
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Year: 1984
Coachwork: Bluebird
Chassis: International 1753
Engine: 6.9 International
Rated Cap: 65
Terminal isn't a location, it's the part number for the wire terminal used in the connector.

The round thing labeled "crank motor solenoid" is actually the starter motor, and the rectangle above it is the starter solenoid mounted on it. 4/0 wire goes from the battery to the starter solenoid, then to the k14 wires which feeds the megafuse, which powers the j14 wires a,c & d. j14 wires b & e are fed by k14 and are not fused. All the wires you asked about should have full battery voltage at all times.

The part you referenced above(A J14C 12 RD 1661708C1) I found on page 50 of part 2(page 128 of the actual document) and that is the connector for the hyd brake valve fuse. You can find the wiring diagram regarding j14c/j94l on page 64 (part 1,pg71) which goes to "solenoid valve supply" on the Full power brake controller.
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Old 05-21-2024, 12:08 PM   #8
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Rated Cap: 65
As far as diagnosing a no crank. Verify the easy things first, like battery volts and that the shifter is in neutral. Then go ahead and check for voltage following the wiring diagram found on part 1 pg 38(manual's page 31). Follow circuits k17f/j17f/j17b/a17/a15/a14c/a14 from the starter motor to the engine crank inhibit relay to the ignition switch to the 10a fuse to the battery feed stud.

With the ignition switch held in the crank position, find where you're losing voltage along that circuit, Be it the ignition switch, fuse, or inhibit relay.

FYI those manuals aren't straightforward or cut and dried. you might find other inhibit relays along the way for things like handicap lifts/emergency exits.
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Old 05-21-2024, 12:16 PM   #9
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Was this no crank on a new to you bus? Or is this something that appeared on a bus that you've had for awhile? If this is a bus you've had for awhile, back track and think of everything you've done and if any of it is something that would have created your present issue. Things like battery replacement, opening or even messing with any of the emergency exits/chair lift doors, or my personal favorite, "tidying" up wiring.
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Old 05-21-2024, 05:40 PM   #10
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I'm currently remote from the bus till Friday, but will thoroughly run through those steps. Thank you Booyah.

The no crank is new. We've had the bus for 2 years and got it with 57 miles on it. I didn't know till after I purchased it but the driver-side fuse panel door was open the 13 years the bus sat in the sun so the cables are quite cooked/weathered.

I replaced every fuse and relay in there to begin with as we initially had trouble with the front brake motor.

For quite some time we've had issues with that one motor seizing and we would go under and tap on it with a rubber mallet and we're back in business.
We stopped for gas one time and then the no crank came and hasn't left. However, that front motor has spun up in the key on position each time with no fault since the no crank.

*Edit*
The motor seizing and now the no crank leads me to believe there is a short somewhere but I just need to locate it.
The bus is 11hrs away and the wife and I drove to it last weekend with a BlueFire adapter to get the codes.
We're going back this weekend and will check and clean each wire/connection we can find.

One thing I was unsure of is if any of the items in that side fuse panel box are related to the brakes in anyway. Even if its a single wire causing an issue..
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Old 05-22-2024, 08:18 AM   #11
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This might be of assistance to you.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...29172-9999.pdf

So will this.

https://www.zf.com/products/media/au...P15143_web.pdf
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Old 05-22-2024, 08:27 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FijiWiji View Post
*Edit*
The motor seizing and now the no crank leads me to believe there is a short somewhere but I just need to locate it.
The bus is 11hrs away and the wife and I drove to it last weekend with a BlueFire adapter to get the codes.
We're going back this weekend and will check and clean each wire/connection we can find.

One thing I was unsure of is if any of the items in that side fuse panel box are related to the brakes in anyway. Even if its a single wire causing an issue..
I wouldn't start cutting apart harnesses or going on a wild goose chase to look for a short. I'd go into this as the 2 problems are separate, diagnose the no-start and keep the brake issue in the back of your mind.

Check power and ground connections, and then check the voltage drop on those circuits to verify internal wire integrity. I'm sure there is things in the side panel that could cause this, but I wouldn't focus my attention there. Follow the appropriate steps and see where it leads you.

Again, I don't want you to feel dumb or anything, but verify it's in neutral and check all emergency exits and doors. Also bring a dvom and check for battery voltage while trying to crank. The fact it was a no start after you stopped for gas tells me something changed and it's likely something simple, and just remember it might not be you that changed it.
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Old 05-22-2024, 08:30 AM   #13
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sorry, I linked the air system manual, this is the one for hydraulics.

https://www.zf.com/products/media/au...MM0401_web.pdf
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Old 05-22-2024, 01:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booyah45828 View Post
I wouldn't start cutting apart harnesses or going on a wild goose chase to look for a short. I'd go into this as the 2 problems are separate, diagnose the no-start and keep the brake issue in the back of your mind.

Check power and ground connections, and then check the voltage drop on those circuits to verify internal wire integrity. I'm sure there is things in the side panel that could cause this, but I wouldn't focus my attention there. Follow the appropriate steps and see where it leads you.

Again, I don't want you to feel dumb or anything, but verify it's in neutral and check all emergency exits and doors. Also bring a dvom and check for battery voltage while trying to crank. The fact it was a no start after you stopped for gas tells me something changed and it's likely something simple, and just remember it might not be you that changed it.

Appreciate the rundown and the confidence! I've never traced wires like this before but that's the best way to learn!
I'll report back on Sunday with the results and will hopefully have our bus back!
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Old 05-25-2024, 11:45 AM   #15
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Ok, I believe I found the problem but not sure how to fix it. Pin 17 on the 32 pin connector should be at zero volts in the key off. Currently, it's reading 12v. The 30amp fuse before that appears to be good. Not sure what to check.
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Old 05-25-2024, 12:19 PM   #16
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Ok so pin 17 is wire N94L which goes to forward chassis connector composite. Just updating as I progress. Trying to find that part now.
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Old 05-25-2024, 01:59 PM   #17
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With what little I know, I'm guessing there is something wrong with either the ignition relay, or something similar since that wire should not have voltage in the key off position. I just have no idea what/where/how to check.
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Old 05-25-2024, 05:00 PM   #18
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Location: Central Tx.
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Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E HT 250HP - Md3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by FijiWiji View Post
Ok, I believe I found the problem but not sure how to fix it. Pin 17 on the 32 pin connector should be at zero volts in the key off. Currently, it's reading 12v. The 30amp fuse before that appears to be good. Not sure what to check.
Question-How did you determine that this voltage is key switched on /off?

I uploaded another wiring diagram, from a 2007 manual, that shows pin 17 being a battery power feed. On this diagram I did not see it as key switched but then again I only did a quickie review.

I also uploaded the WABCO controller pinout. This also reflects pint 17 as a direct batterry feed, not a switched power feed.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 2007-pg 71-ABS hyd controller wiring.pdf (29.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: pdf WABCO-hpb wiring pinout -mm0401.bk.fm.pdf (91.5 KB, 1 views)
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Old 05-25-2024, 05:32 PM   #19
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Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Tx.
Posts: 2,091
Year: 1999
Chassis: Amtran / International
Engine: DT466E HT 250HP - Md3060
Fault Code: 2580-10
  • Extended
    accumulator
    charging time
ABS Warning Lamp – ON
Brake Warning Lamp – ON
ATC Lamp – ON
Audible Warning – ON
Parking Brake Service
Lamp (1939) – OFF
Parking Brake Indicator
Lamp – ON (if applied)
OFF (if released).
Parking Brake Indicator
Lamp (1939) according to
SAHR status.

Verify reservoir cap is venting correctly using below procedure:
- If a hissing noise is heard when removing the cap, replace
the cap.
- If no noise is heard, deplete accumulators using Toolbox™
Software, or disconnect the battery or pull the pump fuses
and press the brake pedal a minimum of 30 times.
- Remove the cap.
- Reconnect the battery or fuses, if pulled, and measure the
time it takes for the pumps to run and shut off.
- If the pumps run longer than 60 seconds, replace the unit.
• If the pumps shut off before 60 seconds is achieved and the
failure disappears, replace the cap
• Verify that the fluid is not contaminated.
• Verify there is no air in the system, Bleed system if necessary.
• If all checks pass, may indicate a pump or motor has failed.


2580-6 Brakes Controller - Hydraulic Brake Pressure Circuit 1

Disconnect and inspect the ECU 2-pin and 31-pin connectors for
any sign of damage, moisture or corrosion,
verify all lock tabs
are in good condition and, clean connectors if necessary.
Check all ECU powers and grounds including load test, may
need to review wiring diagnostics and repair with OEM.
• Check accumulator pre-charge level using Toolbox™ Software
diagnosis.
- Deplete accumulators with ignition off, wait approximately 5
seconds then turn ignition on. Do not apply the brakes, then
under Display, select Pre-Charge Pressure.
- If the pressure is below 430 psi or 30 bar, replace the accumulator.
• Verify reservoir cap is venting correctly using below procedure:
- If a hissing noise is heard when removing the cap, replace
the cap.
- If no noise is heard, deplete accumulators using Toolbox™
Software, or disconnect the battery or pull the pump fuses
and press the brake pedal a minimum of 30 times.
- Remove the cap.
- Reconnect the battery or fuses, if pulled, and measure the
time it takes for the pumps to run and shut off.
- If the pumps run longer than 60 seconds, replace the unit.
- If the pumps shut off before 60 seconds is achieved and the
failure disappears, replace the cap.
- Check pressure in accumulators, if pressure exceeds 2435
psi, replace unit.


639-9 Brakes Controller - J1393 Network #1,

Check electrical system of J1939 bus (connections, wiring).
Disconnect and inspect the 31-pin connector for any sign of
damage, moisture or corrosion
, clean connectors if necessary.
At the 31-pin harness connector, check resistance across pins
14,15 with the key off (should be 60 ohms)
.
At the 31-pin harness connector pin 14, check voltage to ground
with key on (should be 2.5 to 5 volts)
.
At the 31-pin harness connector pin 15, check voltage to ground
with key on (should be 2.5 volts or less).

The reading for pin 14 and 15 may fluctuate within the range but they should never be the same and the total voltage of pins 14
and 15 should equal approximately 5 volts.

May need to review J1939 circuit diagnostics and repair with the
OEM.

• May have unusual or erratic sensor readings for 2 or more
sensors, check sensor adjustment, wheel end play and tone rings
for issues.
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Old 05-27-2024, 12:04 PM   #20
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 14
Thank you all for the extensive help and info. I ran through about every little thing you all suggested in addition to other suggestions I found online. Sadly though we were unable to determine the issue in the 1 day we had to troubleshoot.

Our next step now is to find a repair shop and get it towed as the problem is far outside my realm of knowledge.

Again, thank you all for your help and whenever the repair shop lets us know the fix, I'll be sure to update this for the community.
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