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Old 06-25-2020, 11:35 AM   #1
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: WA
Posts: 5
Year: 1993
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 32 foot
Dashboard Gauge Cluster Changes

Hello Hello,

First time asking for advice but I always look at the email updates for anything interesting.

I have a 1993 Thomas International
DT466 with an Allison MT643

I'm looking for Instrument panel schematics so I can update the dashboard cluster.
I want to give each readout it's open garage.

I have a cluster panel that is one entire box so it has 3: 16-36 pin connectors.

I want to find a schematic for my bus to help me match the pins from the Engine to a connector I will pin for the new gauges I buy.

I know how in over my head I am with no experience but I'm either going to find a schematic, use a multimeter, or last resort buy the same cluster I have.

Anyone have any insight?
Mac

Thank you for taking the time to help.
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Old 06-25-2020, 01:05 PM   #2
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Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 52
Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Saf-T-Liner MVP EF
Engine: Cat C7
Rated Cap: 29 (Perimeter Seating)
sorry, no insite but some empathy. i'm in the same boat with my 05 thomas. the instruments work but the plastic panels holding them in place are all broken. When i get a warning light i have to note its position in the cluster then pickup the cover with the words on it to determine whether i need to punch out or just hit the next T/A.

Am i correct that all your gauges are mechanical? Do you have access to the back of the instruments or are they enclosed eternally within the box? Could you replace 1 at a time, using the same wiring that is on the gauge? Mine each have like 4 wires going to them and I might take this approach. You know, try to reverse engineer from the gauge back.

Im afraid im oversimplifying your cluster setup.

good luck with this

Evan
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Old 06-25-2020, 05:13 PM   #3
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Join Date: Mar 2019
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Posts: 5
Year: 1993
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 32 foot
Yes all mechanical

Thank you for the reply Evan.

I have not taken the full cluster panel apart.. yet.
I think i would just need to unscrew the panel to take a look inside.

That would probably be the best way to trace the wires without tracing the engine connector back to their individual sources. reverse engineering the gauges would be my best option right now.

I believe mine is also a couple wires going to each connector on the back of the panel, some have more than others.

Ive had some luck talking to the Thomas manufacturer and not so much luck.

I was told that the year I have would be difficult to find the schematic for, but seeing that yours is an 05 you might want to call Thomas Bus if you haven't already.

Mac
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Old 06-29-2020, 02:47 PM   #4
Mini-Skoolie
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Melbourne, FL
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Year: 2005
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: Saf-T-Liner MVP EF
Engine: Cat C7
Rated Cap: 29 (Perimeter Seating)
Thanks for the suggestion Mac! I just got off the phone with Thomas and they were very helpful. I talked with James Smolder II, he looked-up the schematics for me. He also said he had access to some data that was 55 y/o on the computer. The number i called was 855-253-0419.
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:14 PM   #5
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Year: 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stlthe View Post
Thanks for the suggestion Mac! I just got off the phone with Thomas and they were very helpful. I talked with James Smolder II, he looked-up the schematics for me. He also said he had access to some data that was 55 y/o on the computer. The number i called was 855-253-0419.
I think the 93 might be too old for this, but the 05 shouldn't be. You can use the Blue Fire diagnostic connector and a tablet for a modern looking digital dash. I have seen some pretty cool customized dash panels using this set up. I'm quite hopeful I can get something nice set up for my 99 using Blue Fire.
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Old 06-29-2020, 03:45 PM   #6
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 13,103
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
in 1993 it should be same as my 1990.
CLUSTER POWER
green connector
pin 10 - +12VDC ignition
pin 17 - GND



TACH
green cluster connector

pin 14,17 signal from flywheel sensor


TEMP
green cluster connector
pin 15 - temp sender in engine


SPEED
green cluster connector
pins 5,8 - speed sender signal (16 pulse per driveshaft rev)


FUEL
green cluster connector
pin 3 - fuel sender from tank


VOLTS
pulls voltage from power / ground inputs


OIL and AIR
mechanical non electric gauges


LIGHTS
LEFT turn
green cluster connector
pin 6 (+12 to bulb when flash is on)


RIGHT turn
green cluster connector
pin 12 (+12 to bulb when flash is on)


HIGH BEAM
green cluster connector
pin 4 (+12 to bulb when brights are on)


AIR BRAKE ALARM
yellow cluster connector
pin 3 (ground is present when air pressure is low) (open otherwise).


hope this helps..
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:03 PM   #7
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Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: WA
Posts: 5
Year: 1993
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 32 foot
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlthe View Post
Thanks for the suggestion Mac! I just got off the phone with Thomas and they were very helpful. I talked with James Smolder II, he looked-up the schematics for me. He also said he had access to some data that was 55 y/o on the computer. The number i called was 855-253-0419.
Thats great! I'm glad you were able to find what you were looking for. I keep calling to late and getting their machine, but I'm hoping to get the info I need for the cluster after the message I left. Thank you! Hope you build goes well!
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:08 PM   #8
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Join Date: Mar 2019
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Year: 1993
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 32 foot
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
in 1993 it should be same as my 1990.
CLUSTER POWER
green connector
pin 10 - +12VDC ignition
pin 17 - GND



TACH
green cluster connector

pin 14,17 signal from flywheel sensor


TEMP
green cluster connector
pin 15 - temp sender in engine


SPEED
green cluster connector
pins 5,8 - speed sender signal (16 pulse per driveshaft rev)


FUEL
green cluster connector
pin 3 - fuel sender from tank


VOLTS
pulls voltage from power / ground inputs


OIL and AIR
mechanical non electric gauges


LIGHTS
LEFT turn
green cluster connector
pin 6 (+12 to bulb when flash is on)


RIGHT turn
green cluster connector
pin 12 (+12 to bulb when flash is on)


HIGH BEAM
green cluster connector
pin 4 (+12 to bulb when brights are on)


AIR BRAKE ALARM
yellow cluster connector
pin 3 (ground is present when air pressure is low) (open otherwise).


hope this helps..
Amazing! If this is correct I will be so happy!

I think I have 3 connectors in the back of the cluster: Green, White, and Orange/Yellow.

How did you find this out?

Thank you for the reply.
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:10 PM   #9
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Location: Eustis FLORIDA
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Year: 1999
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Chassis: Freighliner FS65
Engine: Cat 3126
Rated Cap: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyMac View Post
Amazing! If this is correct I will be so happy!

I think I have 3 connectors in the back of the cluster: Green, White, and Orange/Yellow.

How did you find this out?

Thank you for the reply.
If Chris said it- its correct. He's as smart as they come, that guy. He knows buses better than anyone.
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:53 PM   #10
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: mid Mo.
Posts: 362
Year: 1976
Coachwork: bluebird
Chassis: F33695
Engine: 427 chevy converted to 466
Rated Cap: 84
When I did my engine change I bought Stewart Warner speedo and tach, they are almost infinitely adjustable so I recommend them but your gonna spend some money. The speedo does pulses and you set with satellite, tach will do flywheel magnetic pickup or alternator pulses. Take note of your rpm at full throttle before you pull dash and duplicate when setting pulses on new tach.
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Old 07-02-2020, 03:34 PM   #11
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Join Date: Mar 2019
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Year: 1993
Coachwork: Thomas
Chassis: International
Engine: DT466
Rated Cap: 32 foot
Thank you Chris "cadillackid" for the organized info!

Sportyrick, when I am at full throttle it shifts at around 3-4RPMs depending on the grade. is this what you are referring to when noting the RPMs at full throttle?

Thank you all that have responded. Honestly had such a difficult time trying to google search this info.

Side note,
I was told by RWC Group in Spokane, one of the International chassis manufactures i believe, that the wiring diagram is not something they give out. I was given a number for one of their on call techs. He said that he would come out to see what needs to be done, but the fee is 150 to arrive and 150 an hour. This would be my last resort after exhausting everything I can do myself.
He also said that someone on here might have the diagram because in 93 they didn't have all the computers to file away things and needed to have papers for their mechanics.

So if any retired mechanics out there
have a paper copy of a wire diagram
from the engine to the gauge cluster
of a

1993 Thomas bus
International Chassis
DT466 engine

please send me a message.

I will be taking your advice as well Cadillackid, thank you again guys.
money and life savers you all are!
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Old 07-02-2020, 06:17 PM   #12
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 13,103
Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlyMac View Post
Amazing! If this is correct I will be so happy!

I think I have 3 connectors in the back of the cluster: Green, White, and Orange/Yellow.

How did you find this out?

Thank you for the reply.
I have 3 connectors on my cluster . Some had an extra one me but I though the orange was special for 4x4, Iíd have to look it up ..


What I sent you is what came from my international book so hopefully itís correct, I have found errors at times but ití should give you a pretty good place to start.
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Old 07-02-2020, 06:48 PM   #13
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 13,103
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyrick View Post
When I did my engine change I bought Stewart Warner speedo and tach, they are almost infinitely adjustable so I recommend them but your gonna spend some money. The speedo does pulses and you set with satellite, tach will do flywheel magnetic pickup or alternator pulses. Take note of your rpm at full throttle before you pull dash and duplicate when setting pulses on new tach.



SW gauges are some of my all-time favorites!! highly recommend them.. they arent cheap but they work and work right
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Old 07-02-2020, 08:44 PM   #14
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: mid Mo.
Posts: 362
Year: 1976
Coachwork: bluebird
Chassis: F33695
Engine: 427 chevy converted to 466
Rated Cap: 84
Not what i meant, when changing out your tack for a SW run your engine up and see what it maxes out at so you can do the same to zero your new tach in, I didn't do that and am not sure if my settings are correct.
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Old 07-02-2020, 09:30 PM   #15
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 13,103
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
For the tach the IH should put out 132 pulses per rev of the engine, so if you are setting it that’s a good point to start
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Old 07-08-2020, 11:02 PM   #16
Skoolie
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 194
International has crap clusters. You can get newer Ones and swap the whole mess out. The electricals and draw of Amps could affect other parts of the ecm. Could be a Pandora’s box. Find a school bus mechanic and talk to him they are pretty sharp.
The cracked plastic is from pounding on it to get the speedo operating. The printed board cracks and will work on and off as the bumps
In the road dictate. You can magnify the board and soldier a jumper across the break (s). Been there done that
Cheers
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