Hi! Newbie giving myself 2 years go to full-time skoolie - from MI

[Kato]

Hi everyone,
I guess a bit about 'me' first, then some newbie questions about a bus I'm going to look at (short notice though)

Growing up I was lucky that my Dad worked for IBM and I was exposed to computers from a young age. We're talking pre-Internet, 5 1/4" floppy discs, being excited about the 'first' laser printer, etc. While being computer nerds, Dad's also a really handy guy. Has a small wood shop, builds additions to his houses, knows a little bit about a LOT of stuff and I've basically followed in those foot steps.

That jack-of-all-trades master of... well, few at least makes an RV conversion seem like a fun project. But I'm fully aware it'll actually be a lot of frustration; hopefully with enough fun to make up for it! Haha

Graduated high school in 2000 and tried talking friends into the idea of, "Lets just go! somewhere! We'll go until we run out of money, work there for a bit, then continue on." But it never happened. Gave up on the idea until recently. Then I started thinking that a conversion van or transport van to RV would be a good project. Then the possibility of getting a shuttle bus crossed my mind, and finally, skoolies.

I'm planning on going full-time RV in about 2 years from now. That will give me time to do the build, save up some emergency funds, and prepare ALL THE OTHER stuff involved that you don't think about at first when going full-time. Address and mail, health insurance, voting registration, practically becoming a diesel mechanic in case of breakdowns in the middle of nowhere, solid mobile Internet access, etc. Unless something changes, I'm just going solo. Well, with my cat. (oh dang, possibly my kitty, and my 'cat' lol, engine humor). For the most part, I see my travels being that I stay in a spot for a week to a month, then start moving on somewhere else. With no real plan, I'll just meander around the US, working remotely and taking pictures for fun.

The bus I'm thinking about buying (TOMORROW, short notice for this post) is a 2004 Freightliner Thomas bus, tall roof (mandatory), full-ish length with 10 windows. I kind of wish it was a bit shorter, but going full-time, giving up some mobility and parking options will probably be worth it. It has a Cat 3126 and the guy's mechanic said it's an Allison 2000. I've read that it's a decent combo, and it's a good engine as long as it's maintained properly - stress on keeping good, clean oil in it. 127k miles and from the ad it says:

"In the last 2 years it has new radiator, trans filter and cooler lines, air filter, fuel filters, batteries, rear bags, full exhaust and DOT inspection." The seller, in a message also said, "The dot was kept up on until recent year or so. This bus was used by woodside church and only driven a couple times a year. It runs great and I cant imagine any repairs needed any time soon."

He was asking $4000, and agreed on $3000 if it all checks out when I go look/buy it tomorrow.

I guess that's enough background, may as well move on to the noob questions. I've done my best to research them and have found a lot of good info, but also a LOT of conflicting info.

When checking this bus out, I watched a video that mentioned that there's a high pressure oil hose that came as rubber, they can deteriorate on the inside and can make the oil nasty; that they should be replaced with a metal line with filter. So I can check that.

I'm not sure the engine's 'letter designation' yet, (like 3126d, 3126e etc) Is that important? Are some more reliable than others?

I haven't owned anything with a big diesel engine before, but one thing I picked up is that it'd be bad to, say, drive it on the freeway for a distance, pull off somewhere and shut the engine off. That it's best to let it idle and cool down for a while (15 mins?) first. Is that that, or is there more to it? Is it similar for starting it up? Should it idle for a while before going anywhere? Any elaboration on that would be appreciated.

With that Allison 2000 I've read that often times the top gears are locked out on busses. Is there any easy way to check that? (I mean, maybe just driving it and counting the gears as it shifts), also is there any way to tell if I'll be able to 'unlock' it easily? Does it matter? Side question to that - I've read that a lot of busses are governed at around 62mph but going 55 is the sweet spot anyway. Any way to check or remove that? What I mean is, can I tell it's governed, and not just running out of power at that speed because of gearing? I've read that at, say 60 mph, the RPM should be around 2,500?

Since clean/good oil is apparently SO important in the 3126, what do I look for or how do I test on-site? Yet another side-note to that. If he said it was used by a church and only driven 'a couple times a year' - is that actually a good thing or a bad thing? Good for miles of course, but I've heard that a lot of engines just like to be run regularly, so it *could be a bad thing.

I can't see how good the tires are in the pictures, as far as tread left, but I know they're important, and expensive. So that'll be something I'll check out of course.

Same with rust in bad spots. It looks good overall from the pictures, but we're in Michigan and there aren't pics of the underside or engine compartment. I'm planning on just taking a screwdriver or something and tapping around to see if everything sounds solid that should sound solid, but are there any specific spots to really check into?

Other than the questions I've already asked, am I forgetting anything important? Is there anything specific to look for, or listen for? Anything I should plan on having a mechanic look at when I get it home? (50 mile trip) Anything that would be an obvious "DO NOT BUY"?
Should I do anything special when I park it and start working on the conversion?

I'm planning on parking it next to a garage in the back yard and will put some wood down beneath the tires, making sure it's pretty level in the process. Might put a tarp over it just for some protection. I'll have to paint it at some point too.

I guess that's it for now. Thanks for reading the intro, and for if you have any answers for me. I'm sure there will be many, many more questions. I'll get some pics of it and if I end up buying it, will start a build thread.

[Kato]

All the images I could get of the potential buy.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Be aware that 2004 is the year that active diesel emissions systems became mandatory. DPFs and DEF systems are known for issues and can get quite expensive when they take a notion to malfunction. They've been known to leave you sitting on the side of the road with an engine that runs, without enough power to go anywhere. Not an everyday thing with any particular vehicle, but something to bear in mind going forward.

Otherwise, looks and sounds like it could be a good buy if there is no serious rust (foregone conclusion, I see rust in the wheel wells, so check underside of floor and undercarriage) and there are no obvious mechanical problems. As to the transmission gear lockout, top gear is indeed locked out on most of these from the factory. And from what I understand, you will have to get in touch with the right people with the right equipment to have it unlocked.

Honestly, though, I see enough rust in the wheelwells that I might reconsider my options. My advice, draw a line across the northern borders of VA, TN, AR, OK, NM, AZ and look south of that line.

Diesels are generally best left idling if moving again is planned within a short time, but what you mention is more about reducing wear on turbocharger bearings. Diesels are particularly cranky in colder climates, especially on cold starts. That is why most commercial trucks will idle overnight.

Also, if buying a larger bus like this, I highly recommend a good basic CDL course or primer. A CDL is not required for RV use with such a vehicle, but it is good to know the dangers that do not change with such use.

[Kato]

Thank you very much for the reply and info CHEESE_WAGON!

With the rust, I was kind of thinking that if the frame was still solid, replacing some of the floor wouldn't be all that bad. But it's almost like the equivalent of black mold in a house isn't it? That it would just continue to spread over the years.

I'm finding it difficult to balance initial cost of the vehicle and it's condition, when I know I'll be putting 2-3 times that amount into the conversion itself (even more, but I'm going cheap). If that rust is likely more of an issue than I thought, maybe I best look for something else.

Right now I have a regular license with a chauffeur endorsement. I've thought about getting a CDL and totally agree with your suggestion. I will likely do that within the couple years of prepping if I stick with a full-size bus.

When shopping for busses in other states online, I have (we all have?) the issue of not being able to check it out beforehand. Auction sites seem to really like the "Well, it runs and can move forward and backward, but beyond that, GOOD LUCK!" clause. The possibility of getting stranded during the trip home and hassle it would cause is amplified when talking 500+ miles vs 50 miles. Plus the cost of getting out there in the first place to drive it back. I guess it's all just a balance of time/money/effort. It sure would be nice to find someone with the same idea who drove one up here to MI and gave up on the project. I ALMOST had someone who wanted to get a shuttle bus from the south, just to move a bunch of stuff to MI then sell the vehicle here. They decided to just u-haul it instead though. Travel expenses and a far-from-home breakdown could easily turn a $3000 (or whatever initial cost) into a $5000+ initial cost, but that just comes with the territory doesn't it. Even after the conversion expensive breakdowns could happen at any time.

I hadn't yet found that info about DPFs and DEF systems. Thanks for that! I'll start doing a bit of research on them.

Again, thank you very much for taking the time to share your thought and info with me!

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Kato

With the rust, I was kind of thinking that if the frame was still solid, replacing some of the floor wouldn't be all that bad. But it's almost like the equivalent of black mold in a house isn't it? That it would just continue to spread over the years.

The frame (aka chassis) on this bus is fine. The metal parts are very thick and (importantly) it has a chance to dry out after a soaking. The body, on the other hand, is made entirely from thin sheet metal (16 ga. for the floor and 20 ga. for the roof, on my bus at least); even what look like solid beams on the underside of the floor are just formed sheet metal, so a level of corrosion that would be minor surface rust on the chassis can be fatal on the body. And even then bus bodies seem to only rust badly when they have plywood inside which soaks up water and holds it against the steel floor.

Check out my build thread for an example of the kind of work you have to do to repair rust in a bus body. Here's a briefer summary of my floor repair: https://imgur.com/a/Vp4Xpv6. The bus you're looking at is probably not going to be quite this bad, but it will definitely still be bad. There are a lot of indications of rust even in these carefully-collated pics.

I was similarly afraid of all the things that could go wrong with an auction and a cross-country trip to fetch back a bus, so I bought a NY bus because it looked nice in the pics and the seller offered to deliver it to me. In retrospect, the auction and trip seem ludicrously easy compared to the rust repair work.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

Check out my build thread for an example of the kind of work you have to do to repair rust in a bus body. Here's a briefer summary of my floor repair: https://imgur.com/a/Vp4Xpv6.

Oh wow, thanks for all those pics. A lot of really interesting stuff in there. That's definitely a considerable amount of work, but I like that you took the opportunity to make some alterations along the way like the sub-floor closet and spot for the shower tub.

Very interesting about those clips holding the chassis to the frame too. I had no idea! These pictures are great for learning more about the whole way a bus is put together, where the beams and components are, and what it all actually looks like.

This is something I haven't searched yet and could probably look up, but if I were go to with a more rust-free bus from the south, would it be a good idea to still disassemble whatever I can and give a coat of something like the rustoleum you used to protect it into the future?

I also know I'll need to, but haven't looked into the specifics of how to handle insulation yet. I've been kind of waiting until I find the vehicle, but this was also a good reminder of that.

Thanks again for sharing it!

[musigenesis]

Thank you. I like the idea of my bus being basically a living cutaway drawing.

No matter where you get your bus, you're going to want to gut the inside, meaning removing the ceiling and walls and all the insulation, and removing the seats and plywood flooring. Even what are essentially rust-free buses will usually still have at least a small amount of corrosion on the floors. Then treat the rust with Ospho or similar product (phosphoric acid to convert any rust to iron phosphate), clean and paint. SSOP (Standard Skoolie Operating Procedure).

[Ronnie]

Whatever bus you buy stripping the floor to bare clean metal, and painting is always a good idea. Wheel wells almost always have some rust, so doing the same with them as the floor.

As far as unlocking 6th gear there is a member on this sight that can do it, and an Allison dealer often can do it.

If the bus has DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) it will have another tank near the fuel tank for DEF fluid. You may or may not have that.

The DPF (diesel particulate filter) would be in the exhaust system, after the turbo and before the muffler, again a quick look at the exhaust will tell you if it has it.

Big plus if it has neither. I have seen 2004 without them.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

I was similarly afraid of all the things that could go wrong with an auction and a cross-country trip to fetch back a bus, so I bought a NY bus because it looked nice in the pics and the seller offered to deliver it to me. In retrospect, the auction and trip seem ludicrously easy compared to the rust repair work.

*Yoda voice* Yes, yes... To Obi-Won you listen...

With rust, you have to think about the amount of time you're going to spend trying to cut it out and patch and weld new metal in. It's a time-consuming process that takes away from your enjoyment of the finished product. Much better to get on a plane or train and get one from a part of the country with less rust. You may spend a little more money to get the bus in the first place with less rust, but believe me, it will greatly increase your enjoyment of the project and the finished product.

As for auctions, you will get no guarantees whatsoever. They are generally retired government vehicles, and as such, are generally well-maintained, but beyond that they cannot say whether it will last another 1000 miles or 100,000 miles. I would advise you to try to avoid buses that have AT545 automatic transmissions, they are fairly weak and many will likely need major attention when they are retired, especially for route buses that stop and start many dozens of times per day. MT643, 2000, and MD3060 are good, better, best, though not necessarily in that order, depending on your planned use.

[Ronnie]

As far as this bus is concerned it has not been seen to see how much real rust there is. Crawling underneath will show if it is clean or has light surface rust or is a mess with heavy rust. Go look at it.

The floor will have some rust to be sure almost all do. unless you pull up some of the flooring you really will not be able to tell much.

[Kato]

Thank you all so much for the info and tips! (CHEESE_WAGON, musigenesis, and Ronnie)

This whole idea actually started by thinking, "Maybe I should just get a cheap conversion van and convert that into an RV," then progressed and evolved to busses. It seems like the one I posted might be an ok deal, but nothing amazing. And TBH I'll be happy to avoid a rusty starter bus; even if that involves a long distance purchase, a higher purchase price, or even just being patient.

Personally I'd like a shorter bus anyway, even though they're considerably more rare - especially with the mandatory high ceiling. With that, what are your opinions on cutaways vs, uhhh, whatever one-piece non cutaways are called? haha. I know for shuttle busses, they can be prone to leaks where the fiberglass shell meets up with the cab.

My current plan is to skip the posted bus and wait for one that's either a really good deal, or one that is closer to my ideal size. In the meantime I might go with the original plan of starting out with a very cheap van build to get some experience with sourcing and building all the different systems that are necessary. It would be great if I could then flip it and put the extra money toward *MY* bus build; but even if I don't come out ahead financially, that knowledge and experience gained will be invaluable.

Given the market around here (Basically, everyone's poor), I could see it make sense to start with a $1000-2000 vehicle, put another $1000-2000 and time into it, then sell it for $3000-5000. If that works and I could come out ahead, maybe doing that a couple times would raise the budget for the bus.

I'm kind of bummed that I let a really nice bus from Ohio slip away (it sold pretty quickly and was a bit over my budget at the time), but there will be more!

Also, my parents are snowbirds, so if nothing happens before fall I could help them drive down to their place in Florida this year and hopefully be driving a nice bus back around then! In the meantime I'm still scouring all of the classifieds and auction sites I can find to find the right one; and reading through these forums to learn all I can.

Patience is tough, but you can never learn too much or save too much $. Heck, maybe I'll dive into learning more about diesel engines in general. That'll be helpful on the road, AND while shopping around.

[Native]

The pictures show this bus to have rust issues in back. Look at the lower edge of the emergency door ... all brown. The passenger corner is also sarting to rust through. I had to rebuild all of that area in our bus (a 2002 FS65). One picture of the interior was of the wheel wells, which was rusted. This bus has rust.... lots of rust that is hidden.


I am glad you have decided on passing on it.

[Kato]

Update on the start of the RV conversion journey.

I did decide against that first bus. All the talk of just how bad the rust *really* was - with how busses are built - made enough sense that it wasn't worth it. Not long after that, a cheap $1000 van showed up on Facebook Marketplace and I jumped on it. I re-visited my original plan of getting something really cheap to mess around with before starting on *my* real build.

Things like getting the water system in there, propane system in there, solar system in there. With so much planning involved, going through it once or twice while learning along the way seemed best. I mean, with ANYTHING, how often do we say "If I could do it again, I could do so much better!"

Unfortunately, with Secretary of State not open for transferring titles right now, it can't be a quick flip to put more into the next one. But the end goal is still a bus - and midwest transit has one that seems pretty nice, but it goes back to the, "How can I tell if it runs, or is safe to drive home?"

Do you have any tips on that? There are pictures but very little description of if or how well they run. They're too far away to take a trip just to check it out, unless the chances if it being good are fairly high. I know Midwest Transit is fairly popular on these forums, even though they're not in the southern states, as may be ideal.

How do you all go about it?

[bigskypc50]

Kato, I use to collect IBM 5150's. I would not mess around to much unless you have tons of money to blow. All the money you spend "messing" around could be spent on your dream bus or rig. Doing solar water and etc is easy, I see countless people here who are clueless learn everyday. How to tell if it's safe and will make it home, you never know. Have the seller or Midwest give you photos of the underneath if it looks clean and it pass's a few basic checks, you just have to chance it. Just like anything used or new it's all caveat emptor.

[Kato]

Hi bigskypc50! I remember having an IBM 5150, with those dual floppy drives. Then getting a PC Jr with it's cartridges was so futuristic!

Originally Posted by bigskypc50

I would not mess around to much unless you have tons of money to blow. All the money you spend "messing" around could be spent on your dream bus or rig.

The messing around I was planning on doing was pretty much just a cheap flip or two, hopefully to save even more for 'my' final build - and gain some experience in the process. It could be risky though, if any of those flips became a flop instead. lol

Finding the right combination of body type, engine, transmission, and condition is so rough. I've started jotting down handwritten notes to try and keep it all straight.

On engines, I've read and been told that 2004 is the magic year that diesel emission systems started messing everything up. That there may be some 04-06 without them, but to try and look pre 04. Does the year trump the engine model? Like if there's a 04 with a T444, or an 08 with a Cummins 5.9, stay away because of the year, or is the actual engine more important if it's a 'good' one?

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Kato

On engines, I've read and been told that 2004 is the magic year that diesel emission systems started messing everything up. That there may be some 04-06 without them, but to try and look pre 04. Does the year trump the engine model? Like if there's a 04 with a T444, or an 08 with a Cummins 5.9, stay away because of the year, or is the actual engine more important if it's a 'good' one?

The '03 or earlier rule is just a close approximation of what you need to look for, and it depends on the engine. The T444 was apparently never produced with emissions controls, so an 04 or 05 with one would still be OK. The DT466 was produced with emissions controls from 04 onward, so in that case year trumps engine type.

[Native]

Word of advice ... if you are planning on flipping a vehicle, you must know what the prospective buyers want and built it to meet those expectations, not your own.

[ol trunt]

What Native said. Oh, and I've got this really neat Edsel 4 door for sale--------
Jack

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by bigskypc50

Kato, I use to collect IBM 5150's.

It is noteworthy here to mention that '5150' is police code for 'crazy person'.

[Kato]

Originally Posted by musigenesis

The '03 or earlier rule is just a close approximation of what you need to look for, and it depends on the engine. The T444 was apparently never produced with emissions controls, so an 04 or 05 with one would still be OK. The DT466 was produced with emissions controls from 04 onward, so in that case year trumps engine type.

Ahhh, thanks for the info! See, there are so many little details like that with all of these engines/transmissions and other various parts; the initial learning curve is pretty steep! But all of the knowledge from you all on these forums is SO helpful.

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

It is noteworthy here to mention that '5150' is police code for 'crazy person'.

I do computer work at a local mental health facility. When I got the job I said, "At least there will be plenty of people around who can help when I end up going crazy!" haha