INTRO: New Full Timer - Please Help Me Choose The Bus

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

A pic is worth a thousand words man.

PDF attached to previous post.

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

That pdf doesn't make sense... Its got nomenclature that doesn't seem too legit. They don't refer to the engines by their company given names and the 408 wasn't available in 2004.

The 466/530 use the same in-frame rebuild kit-
1836012C94 | NAVISTAR DT466E/ I530E INFRAME REBUILD KIT

http://www.astleford.com/pdf/dt466dt530brochure.pdf

the bore of the 466- 4.59x4.68
bore of the 530- 4.59x5.35

I'm not sure what nomenclature you're referring to. The two pages dated 2004 were amended. The rest of the manual is 1994 with a few other amendments.



As I've said every time I've quoted the manual, this information is for the MECHANICAL variants and details may have changed. Somebody on this forum has to have the 466E, 530E manual. If only they'd settle this.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by djdalfaro

I'm not sure what nomenclature you're referring to. The two pages dated 2004 were amended. The rest of the manual is 1994 with a few other amendments.



As I've said every time I've quoted the manual, this information is for the MECHANICAL variants and details may have changed. Somebody on this forum has to have the 466E, 530E manual. If only they'd settle this.

The very first generation of DT's had the bore different between the 466/530 but that was long ago.

Now your manual's numbers are making sense!

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

That pdf doesn't make sense... Its got nomenclature that doesn't seem too legit. They don't refer to the engines by their company given names and the 408 wasn't available in 2004.

The 466/530 use the same in-frame rebuild kit-
1836012C94 | NAVISTAR DT466E/ I530E INFRAME REBUILD KIT

http://www.astleford.com/pdf/dt466dt530brochure.pdf

the bore of the 466- 4.59x4.68
bore of the 530- 4.59x5.35

So from the brochure, it appears that International completely changed the bore & stroke of their engines at some point. Not really surprising. I suppose the thing would be to know which scheme your own engine fell under. I wonder if the early 466e and 530e followed your displacement scheme or mine.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by djdalfaro

So from the brochure, it appears that International completely changed the bore & stroke of their engines at some point. Not really surprising. I suppose the thing would be to know which scheme your own engine fell under. I wonder if the early 466e and 530e followed your displacement scheme or mine.

To all folllowing along- NOTE that insults and abuse were not needed to have the conversation.
Dj- thanks for an informative and intelligent discussion.

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie

Ok, a lot more to chew on.
... been a bus driver a long time because I'm a musician that couldn't find another job.

A musician? Thats awesome. Do you have any links to your music you want to share? I am a total musician wannabe. I have tried messing with piano, guitar, drums over the years, but never mastered any of them. Can play a little by shear will no talent. My kid has talent, not me. I found the ukulele recently and dig on that. Its only 4 strings and nicely spaced for my fat fingers. I am truly in awe of real musicians. BTW- I need a spot on the bus for my drum kit, do they make a bigger than 40 bus or should I trade in my drums for a cocktail kit? LOL

There's an insurance agent on here that posted not long ago. He said he could write up skoolies.

Any chance you have a link to that post? Im a start searching now.

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

To all folllowing along- NOTE that insults and abuse were not needed to have the conversation.
Dj- thanks for an informative and intelligent discussion.

Your so right. A debate with differing opinions on the internet that did not devolve into comments about anyone's mother, sexual orientation or position on the "spectrum". Nice man!

[EastCoastCB]

Heck- I learned something today!

[Dapplecreek]

Originally Posted by fadderall

Any chance you have a link to that post? [insurance agent] Im a start searching now.

Ricky Burgess, of Sutphin Insurance Agency, in Moneta, Virginia. He can't write out in Nevada. But the company he found for me (and others) is active all over the States, and he might have a contact for you out there. The company is National General if you want to see what you can find. Ricky's number is 540 -266-3074. He's a great guy, and sees it as your job to be perfectly frank with him and his job to meet your needs (and keep you from getting bit by the fallout from a misrepresentation as you try to get a policy).

You'll need photos and the length of the bus, I believe.

My bus is insured as a "Conversion In Progress" for minimum liability only. I would prefer to have more liability coverage, but that's all they offered.

[Dapplecreek]

Originally Posted by fadderall

Your so right. A debate with differing opinions on the internet that did not devolve into comments about anyone's mother, sexual orientation or position on the "spectrum". Nice man!

Good heavens! A thread of 169 posts and nobody got called a Nazi! Wow!

Well, yet...

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by Dapplecreek

Ricky Burgess, of Sutphin Insurance Agency, in Moneta, Virginia. He can't write out in Nevada. But the company he found for me (and others) is active all over the States, and he might have a contact for you out there. The company is National General if you want to see what you can find. Ricky's number is 540 -266-3074. He's a great guy, and sees it as your job to be perfectly frank with him and his job to meet your needs (and keep you from getting bit by the fallout from a misrepresentation as you try to get a policy).

You'll need photos and the length of the bus, I believe.

My bus is insured as a "Conversion In Progress" for minimum liability only. I would prefer to have more liability coverage, but that's all they offered.

DAPPLE-
THANKS! Just got off the phone with Ricky. You are right he is a great guy. He spent a good deal of time talking to me even though he cannot write a policy in Nevada, although he can in many states other than Virginia. I would say to everyone that if you are looking for school bus insurance, skoolie insurance, conversion insurance or RV insurance give Ricky Burgess, of Sutphin Insurance Agency, in Moneta, Virginia 540 -266-3074. Even if you are not in Virginia, its worth a shot as he does service other states.
He explained that this "conversion in progress" surcharge or policy is relatively new to Virginia having only become available to him last fall. He also said that the insurance companies are cracking down on the "commercial vehicle for personal use" angle. He said they dont want to do it unless it is for a business purpose. In other words if its a bus and you buy it to use in your business but not as a bus to carry people as your business, then that is what the policy is meant for. Not, trying to argue anyone that has that coverage, just providing the information I was given.
Anyway, just wanted to do a little advertisement for Ricky. He spent time helping me even though I told him right off the bat Im in Nevada and he cant write the policy here. He also is totally up on the skoolie thing and reads these forums so you can call and just tell him straight up what you are doing. Good people. I hope he can help some of you that are in areas he serves. Now I need to find a local National General agent and see what they dig up for me. At least I know what to ask for.
Thanks again for the referral

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Heck- I learned something today!

Me too, It appears that International changed their whole scheme for creating the differing displacements between the 466 and 530 from the NGD to the E models.

Weird. Not that it's uncommon for engine companies to make changes to their blocks over the years, it seems to me that to go from (increasing the bore) to (increasing the stroke) but basically calling the engines by their old names is a bit funky.

Thanks for the informative discussion.

[fadderall]

Just called AIS RV Insurance (Agent for National General and others Nationwide) and found out about the Conversion In Progress Policy that National General offers. Unfortunately, Nevada is not one of those states. For anyone in the following States, National General offers a Bus Conversion In Progress Policy -
Alabama
Arkansas
Colorado
Georgia
Iowa
Illinois
Kentucky
Louisiana
Missouri
Mississippi
New Hamshire
Ohio

I talked to a guy named John, seemed to know what I was talking about right away. 800-859-6360 x72824 John at AIS.

I think if you live in one of those states then this is the best way to go. It is insurance for what we are actually doing and then can be converted to RV insurance once the vehicle is completed.

So, for my situation they are going to use Progressive commercial to get me coverage. I do not know what policy yet, but the guy I talked to said that he has had really good luck with this and sees no problem getting me insurance. He is calling me back with a quote when commercial opens. All he needed was name address make and model. He said give him a likely make model since I dont have bus yet and he doesn't think it will effect the quote much since it is a liability only policy. When I get the bus and have a VIN, I call back and they will email the real quote to sign then issue the policy on the spot.....or so thats what he said. I will update the progress.

[fadderall]

Oh boy, I feel like the tilt o whirl is tilting. Just got the call back from AIS commercial. The commercial guy had no idea what I was calling about, they just transferred me to the commercial department. So, if you are calling AIS and are not in the 12 states listed above that do the Conversion In Progress policy, skip the regular number and call straight to the commercial department. 800-859-6503.

So, I explain everything and contrary to what John said, Sam tells me "I cant start or quote anything without a VIN". I give him the VIN of a 1997 Bluebird TC2000 that I had from a for sale ad. As soon as he puts the VIN in he asks "is this a Bluebird"? I say yes. He says the computer tells him he has to call it in. I ask what that means and he says they just need to do these manually. I ask if this means there is a problem with the Bluebirds, Thomas's and such. He says no they just do these a different way that wastes a lot of time. I explain the situation of going down to AZ and counting on insurance to get back. He tells me that it should not be a problem 99% this is a go. This is starting to sound familiar to others.

Does anyone have or know where to find the parameters they use to decide if they will cover? Do they have a cut off for age, mileage, weight, type or anything? It just seems like such a shot in the dark. Im playing a game that I barely understand and that the people I am playing with are telling me they will tell me the rules as I go along. Ya right.

NOTE- At no time did I or the AIS agent mention the word SCHOOL bus. All I did was give him the VIN and he said Bluebird.

I am heading out on a wing and a prayer, I hope they come through.

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by fadderall

Oh boy, I feel like the tilt o whirl is tilting. Just got the call back from AIS commercial. The commercial guy had no idea what I was calling about, they just transferred me to the commercial department. So, if you are calling AIS and are not in the 12 states listed above that do the Conversion In Progress policy, skip the regular number and call straight to the commercial department. 800-859-6503.

So, I explain everything and contrary to what John said, Sam tells me "I cant start or quote anything without a VIN". I give him the VIN of a 1997 Bluebird TC2000 that I had from a for sale ad. As soon as he puts the VIN in he asks "is this a Bluebird"? I say yes. He says the computer tells him he has to call it in. I ask what that means and he says they just need to do these manually. I ask if this means there is a problem with the Bluebirds, Thomas's and such. He says no they just do these a different way that wastes a lot of time. I explain the situation of going down to AZ and counting on insurance to get back. He tells me that it should not be a problem 99% this is a go. This is starting to sound familiar to others.

Does anyone have or know where to find the parameters they use to decide if they will cover? Do they have a cut off for age, mileage, weight, type or anything? It just seems like such a shot in the dark. Im playing a game that I barely understand and that the people I am playing with are telling me they will tell me the rules as I go along. Ya right.

NOTE- At no time did I or the AIS agent mention the word SCHOOL bus. All I did was give him the VIN and he said Bluebird.

I am heading out on a wing and a prayer, I hope they come through.

At least you were able to talk to someone, hopefully they can help you out.

You might not have said school bus, but generally the VIN will tell them/us that it's a bus.

Generally insurance looks at your insurance score & policy history, your claims history report (CLUE) and driving record (MVR), age and location are also a factor.


It's hard to say what they are looking at since I don't know how AIS works, but I would imagine someone is calling an underwriter and trying to see where the Bluebird fits for what your use will be.

[o1marc]

With the seats out it is no longer a school bus and will not require a CDL to drive. Check with your current vehicle insurer and see if you are covered in "any new/used vehicle " you buy for a short period.

[sutphinins]

Originally Posted by o1marc

With the seats out it is no longer a school bus and will not require a CDL to drive. Check with your current vehicle insurer and see if you are covered in "any new/used vehicle " you buy for a short period.

Technically it's always going to be a bus, it's just not being used as a bus, or is a bus rv conversion. If you take all the seats out of a car, it's still a car, you can't have passengers anymore, but that doesn't change the overall vehicle type.

I think the CDL has more to do with the size/weight of the vehicle than the use. I've never tried to get a CDL so I don't know for certain. I tell people to check with the DMV if they have a question about whether it would be required.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

Technically it's always going to be a bus, it's just not being used as a bus, or is a bus rv conversion. If you take all the seats out of a car, it's still a car, you can't have passengers anymore, but that doesn't change the overall vehicle type.

I think the CDL has more to do with the size/weight of the vehicle than the use. I've never tried to get a CDL so I don't know for certain. I tell people to check with the DMV if they have a question about whether it would be required.

You're wrong, it depends on if it's set up to carry 16 passengers or more. Once the seats are gone it can't carry 16 passengers it is still a bus, but not a school bus requiring a CDL to drive if it is not being used for business. Buses are not like cars as they can be set up in different configurations. You can make a bus an RV, you can't make a car an RV.

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by sutphinins

Technically it's always going to be a bus, it's just not being used as a bus, or is a bus rv conversion. If you take all the seats out of a car, it's still a car, you can't have passengers anymore, but that doesn't change the overall vehicle type.

I think the CDL has more to do with the size/weight of the vehicle than the use. I've never tried to get a CDL so I don't know for certain. I tell people to check with the DMV if they have a question about whether it would be required.

Originally Posted by o1marc

You're wrong, it depends on if it's set up to carry 16 passengers or more. Once the seats are gone it can't carry 16 passengers it is still a bus, but not a school bus requiring a CDL to drive if it is not being used for business. Buses are not like cars as they can be set up in different configurations. You can make a bus an RV, you can't make a car an RV.

I think you are both right. I was looking into insurance, registration and DL today in order to get bus in AZ and bring to NV. I looked at the rules in AZ and NV and Federal.

The Federal law is 26,001 weight + is a CDL vehicle, but states can make their own exception laws for commercial vehicles (by weight) but used for non commercial use. Thats were personal use, RV, farm, off road and such comes into play.

In Arizona if you have something recognized as a motorhome (store bought RV or conversion as long as "for private pleasure" and not Commercial purpose) then you don't need a CDL or Any special license even if 26,001+ GVWR regardless of passengers.

In Nevada if you have something recognized as a motorhome (store bought or converted) you don't need a CDL but you may need a Class A, B, C, NON CDL and/or ENDORSEMENT. Its basically CDL RV license added to your DL but not a REAL CDL.

I think the 16 passenger thing is part of the Federal law and that is under the CLASS C Federal designation that says to the effect vehicles not meeting CLASS A or CLASS B but can carry more than 16 passengers require CLASS C CDL. If it is a commercial vehicle then the weight of most buses would negate the CLASS C anyway regardless of passengers. I suppose if you had a shortie 16 passenger that you wanted to use commercially (maybe hotel shuttle) and you took out a seat and it wasn't in the weight of CLASS A or CLASS B then you could operate it without a CDL (provided you also were not transporting hazardous material). Of course this stuff is only applicable to commercial vehicles anyway.

Each state is different and where each of you is located I am sure the rules are different. I am not even sure I have this totally correct, just learning as well.

So the bus might not always be a bus if its titled/registered a motorhome and 16 passengers may or may not come into play depending what your using it for and what states everyone is in.
Each state can require what they want to make it qualify as an RV. So once it does, for registration, title and Insurance (in terms of complete or in process coverage) the bus can cease to be a bus. But, the VIN I believe will always come up Bluebird or Thomas etc. BUS. That is also what the insurance companies ask for is only the VIN not reg or title.
So, to Ricky at the insurance company a bus is always a bus or converted bus. But to the DMV/State a bus is sometimes not a bus anymore but a personal pleasure mobile AKA Recreational Vehicle.

All the states accept the laws of the registration state of your vehicle in reciprocity, so you can drive around the country and not worry about different licensing or titling. The Federal law is for commercial to give one set of rules and grease the roads of interstate commerce. Sure would be nice if we were allowed to title our vehicles in the most advantageous state. Sort of how business opts for Delaware or Nevada corporation status. Of course it wont ever happen because our states need that tax dollar.

Federal CDL Rules
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registrati...icense/drivers

Arizona Rules
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/03102.htm
Number 5 exempts weight over 26,000 if it is for "Private Pleasure". How much solar would I need to run that marital aide?

Nevada Rules
Nevada Driver Licenses and ID Cards

So, if I get my bus and take off all the school stuff it will be on Arizona title from Arizona dealer and sold to me for my Private pleasure, then I should be able to drive on a regular license. At least just to get it home. Once in Nevada I would get the Nevada NON commercial License and appropriate endorsements as needed.

Just for fun, I think the GVWR can even be changed. I havent gone too far down that rabbit hole yet but it seems theoretically possible.

GVWR is the max weight a vehicle can carry (including towing and the weight of the vehicle itself). Its the MAX loaded weight.

CURB WEIGHT is the weight of the bus with everything in it (options, fluids, fuel, etc) except for passengers and cargo.

Anyway, in a School Fleet post someone says that their Thomas Freightliner has a GVWR 28,999 and a CURB WEIGHT of 18,070. That means that there is 10,929 PAYLOAD pounds for those 72 kids or what all you are packing in the bus before you are illegally overweight (like my Saturday night after the Vegas buffet).

The GVWR is set by the manufacture as an engineering limit to what the particular chassis can safely move around. De Rating the GVWR would not defy the engineering limit but actually increase the margin of safety.

So in the above example, if we get the Thomas Frieghtliner MotorHome to be de rated to 26,000 pounds, then we would have 7,930 payload pounds for Passengers, 800 pound water/waste tanks, bunks, kitchen, etc. Of course it would be more because the weight of all the seats would be deducted from the curb weight.

So, as I understand, if we have a scale weight stripped, then add only weight to about 23000 or so pounds with modifications, water and such we still have 3000 pounds of cargo capacity for bikes, food, passengers and the drivers rear end. Legally, as long as we never load above that 26,000 we would be in legal compliance with the de rating. If we happened to load over by accident, it would never be a safety issue since the chassis can actually support an additional 3000 pounds. I wonder what the seats weigh does anyone know what a typical seat weight is?
Of course towing would be out of the question unless your towing a segway.

The thing is in Nevada if its under 26,000 then no special license is needed. I have read some people on here and elsewhere discussing this, but I cant say that anyone has been successful in practice. Does anyone have a confirmed case where they or someone they know was able to successfully get the GVWR DERATED to under 26k?

It may be more trouble then its worth. But, I hate the idea of wasting days with the DMV and testing and spending money for nothing but a letter on my DL.

BTW Page 5 of the Skills Study Guide shows that you need to take the following written and drive tests for the non commercial Nevada license. How you supposed to take a drive test without a license? How do you get the vehicle there? Under 26k starting to sound good.
Section 1, Driving Safely
Section 2, Transporting Cargo Safely
Section 4, Combination Vehicles
Section 5, Securing a Trailer
Section 6, Pre-Trip Inspection; A & B
Section 7, Basic Control Skills Test; A & B
Section 8, On-Road Driving Test; A & B
http://dmvnv.com/pdfforms/dlbookabj.pdf
Oh and there is also a Section 3 Air Brake endorsement. I better get studying.

[david.dgeorge07]

Got approval for comprehensive insurance today through State Farm in TN. And my understanding of the DL issue is very different based on my TN experience.

You will never need a CDL for a vehicle that is owned for personal (not commercial) use. Some states require a state endorsement for GVWR Vehicles above a certain weight, but at least in TN, this is also a mostly licensing thing. I never had weighted tags for the bus so it don’t think it ever applied.

If it did, once titled as a motor home that put an end to it. In most states (not all) any kind of motor home (regardless of brake type or GVWR) can be driven with a normal license (no endorsements).

All of that to say that in my understanding based on dealing with TN DMV, it is nearly entirely an issue of classification and not at all about the physical characteristics of the vehicle. There is reciprocity between states so if you are legal at home you are legal in all.

Seems likely some lobby money went into the requirements for RV drivers to be so lenient.