INTRO: New Full Timer - Please Help Me Choose The Bus

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by o1marc

Are you saying the info below is incorrect, that the stroke is the same, but the bore different between the 466/530? Makes sense, to avoid the cost you refer to, to make the change in an easy sleeve change than to add a stroker kit to the bottom end.

I'm saying the bore on a 466 is the SAME as a 530.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

The bore on a 466 and 530 are the same. The bottom end of the 530 is what's different. Yeah you COULD turn a 466 into a 530 but it would be ridiculously expensive and time consuming. Could just buy a 530 for way less money and hassle. Unless you're a master diesel tech.

You've got a top of the line bus, so if its got the HT engine then yeah the ONLY difference between your 466 and a 530 is the bottom end.

Originally Posted by o1marc

Are you saying the info below is incorrect, that the stroke is the same, but the bore different between the 466/530? Makes sense, to avoid the cost you refer to, to make the change in an easy sleeve change than to add a stroker kit to the bottom end.

Plz see the parts in bold.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

Plz see the parts in bold.

So you agree with me. dj posted different results for bore and stroke and I was confirming your numbers. Wonder where he got his numbers from?

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by o1marc

So you agree with me. dj posted different results for bore and stroke and I was confirming your numbers. Wonder where he got his numbers from?

I guess so, IDK that got a bit confusing.

[o1marc]

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie

The mechanics in this neck of the woods don't like the 444E unless it's on a small bus. And even then they don't like working on it. The 444E is an 8 cylinder (used in Ford pickups) and the 466/530 is an inline 6 using the same block for both. So all 3 are Internationals but not the same family.

I would recommend the 466/530 or 8.3. Those are the big school bus engines.

And yes, the 5.9 is the same engine as used in Dodge trucks.

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I guess so, IDK that got a bit confusing.

Go see post #130

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by o1marc

So you agree with me. dj posted different results for bore and stroke and I was confirming your numbers. Wonder where he got his numbers from?

I got my numbers from my service manual.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by djdalfaro

The DT408 is
Bore: 4.301
Stroke: 4.680

The DT466 is
Bore: 4.301
Stroke: 5.350

The DT530 is
Bore: 4.590
Stroke: 5.350

So, the DT466 is a stroked DT408, and the DT530 is a bored DT466.

*There may be other differences, and this may have changed since the MECHANICAL service manual that I have.*

Originally Posted by o1marc

Go see post #130

Oh wow, I totally missed that post entirely. LOL

That's total misinformation!

[EastCoastCB]

https://www.redpowermagazine.com/for...c/85923-dt530/

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...y&guccounter=1

https://www.expeditersonline.com/for...-l-2005.62044/

[glenncooper]

It's pretty cool how much dialog this has created. I am SO glad to hear that your departure date is somewhat flexible. Overall I think it is such a cool thing that people with varying degrees of skill just jump in and do it, so I really commend your spirit here. With the understanding that your life doesn't end if you're not on the road in October, then go for it, and have your journey! And of course it won't be perfect - wouldn't be a skoolie if it was. I've watched so many YouTube videos of people that do fairly poor jobs building out their skoolies, and often have no clue what they're doing. But in the end they do it - they are on the road, having their journey, and all manages to work out. Again - knowing that October can move is a big deal!

[boojiewoojie]

Fadderall I'm hoping you're ok with the thread drift but I've wondered about the 466/530 (rebuild) differences for a while. East Coast, I'm thinking the mechanic was telling me, "Since we have it apart I could upgrade it to the 530 for not much more effort because yours is an HD engine." The details are fuzzy but to save me money he had me buy the parts that I could get at the same price as him. That's how he brought the subject up when he told me to get the rebuild kit. He was a wonderful independent mechanic whose family business has worked on buses for several decades. Unfortunately he closed his shop a couple of years ago, otherwise I would go ask him what exactly he said!

[boojiewoojie]

With all the engine talk here's my non-mechanic take on it: The transmission makes a big difference. Yes, if it's a 3060 it's probably paired with a bigger engine so it's kind of an apples to oranges thing. All I know is that when I get in a bus with the push button tranny it almost always runs strong. The others with the stick (545) and 5.6 are almost always dogs. The 643 is decent and sometimes really nice and strong. If it's the 3060 it will almost always run really well unless there's something wrong with the engine.
This is from my experience of being a sub driver for several different school districts where you just go hop in a different bus every day.

Don't get a bigger bus with the 545 and the 5.6. Yes, they're the most plentiful still and they're fine for a route but not over the highway. In a shorty, yes they're fine.

If it's got the 643 it's probably worth checking out.

If it's got the 3060 (and I'm assuming the 2000 series but you don't see that one as much) and a Cummins, CAT or International it's worth checking out. The 3060 is expensive to repair or replace but you rarely hear of transmission problems.

As others have said the CAT is expensive to repair but it's rare to have major engine problems. I ran a CAT/3060 combo for about 80k miles in an FE bus and I loved it. They had to retire the bus because it was over the 200k mile mark but it could have kept going.

And I wouldn't worry about the electronic engines. Yeah, you may have the check engine light on all the time because of a clogged sensor. But I learned after several trips to the mechanic, "Is it running hot? Oil pressure okay? Does it feel/sound okay? Well, I wouldn't worry about it until your next maintenance."

Oh, this may help in your search: most states will let a bus run for 15 years or 200k miles. In Tennessee you can extend it for two more years or until it hits 200k (assuming it passes inspection). That's why you see some of the price discrepancies. Contractors like me are willing to buy a used bus for 20k if it meets mileage/age requirements. And the local banks will finance for us up to 15 years (which to me is a little crazy).
So if you see a fairly late model bus for cheap with 198k miles on it, yep, nobody's gonna buy it to put in service. Export or skoolie only. A 15 year old bus with only 90k miles? Yep, nobody's gonna buy it to put it in service. It has to be under the age limit for two years in Tennessee. So I'm not gonna buy anything older than 2005.

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by glenncooper

It's pretty cool how much dialog this has created. I am SO glad to hear that your departure date is somewhat flexible. Overall I think it is such a cool thing that people with varying degrees of skill just jump in and do it, so I really commend your spirit here. With the understanding that your life doesn't end if you're not on the road in October, then go for it, and have your journey! And of course it won't be perfect - wouldn't be a skoolie if it was. I've watched so many YouTube videos of people that do fairly poor jobs building out their skoolies, and often have no clue what they're doing. But in the end they do it - they are on the road, having their journey, and all manages to work out. Again - knowing that October can move is a big deal!

Glenn,
Thank you and amen brother. We started this idea for a family journey looking at the usual trailer/truck and motor home options, then saw a skoolie and were hooked. The big motor coaches, fifth wheels, toy haulers and all are truly awesome comfort machines. <**Hippy Moment Spoiler Alert**> But, those vehicles just dont mesh with the spiritual aspect of our journey. They just dont have the right soul. The re-purposing of an awesome hunk of steel and American muscle, that would otherwise be mostly discarded, is pretty cool. Yes, we rationalized the decision to go skoolie based on safety, strength of the vehicle and much lower cost to get exactly what we want. But the truth is, there is only one reason we are going skoolie - CUZ ITS COOL AF.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie

Fadderall I'm hoping you're ok with the thread drift but I've wondered about the 466/530 (rebuild) differences for a while. East Coast, I'm thinking the mechanic was telling me, "Since we have it apart I could upgrade it to the 530 for not much more effort because yours is an HD engine." The details are fuzzy but to save me money he had me buy the parts that I could get at the same price as him. That's how he brought the subject up when he told me to get the rebuild kit. He was a wonderful independent mechanic whose family business has worked on buses for several decades. Unfortunately he closed his shop a couple of years ago, otherwise I would go ask him what exactly he said!

That sounds about right. I know you know a good bit about buses. Don't you post over on the School Bus Fleet forum?

IDK where the other guys manual came from but a DT408 is a long stroke version of the DT360 and the DT530 is a long stroke variant of the 466.

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie

With all the engine talk here's my non-mechanic take on it: The transmission makes a big difference. Yes, if it's a 3060 it's probably paired with a bigger engine so it's kind of an apples to oranges thing. All I know is that when I get in a bus with the push button tranny it almost always runs strong. The others with the stick (545) and 5.6 are almost always dogs. The 643 is decent and sometimes really nice and strong. If it's the 3060 it will almost always run really well unless there's something wrong with the engine.
This is from my experience of being a sub driver for several different school districts where you just go hop in a different bus every day.

Don't get a bigger bus with the 545 and the 5.6. Yes, they're the most plentiful still and they're fine for a route but not over the highway. In a shorty, yes they're fine.

If it's got the 643 it's probably worth checking out.

If it's got the 3060 (and I'm assuming the 2000 series but you don't see that one as much) and a Cummins, CAT or International it's worth checking out. The 3060 is expensive to repair or replace but you rarely hear of transmission problems.

As others have said the CAT is expensive to repair but it's rare to have major engine problems. I ran a CAT/3060 combo for about 80k miles in an FE bus and I loved it. They had to retire the bus because it was over the 200k mile mark but it could have kept going.

And I wouldn't worry about the electronic engines. Yeah, you may have the check engine light on all the time because of a clogged sensor. But I learned after several trips to the mechanic, "Is it running hot? Oil pressure okay? Does it feel/sound okay? Well, I wouldn't worry about it until your next maintenance."

Oh, this may help in your search: most states will let a bus run for 15 years or 200k miles. In Tennessee you can extend it for two more years or until it hits 200k (assuming it passes inspection). That's why you see some of the price discrepancies. Contractors like me are willing to buy a used bus for 20k if it meets mileage/age requirements. And the local banks will finance for us up to 15 years (which to me is a little crazy).
So if you see a fairly late model bus for cheap with 198k miles on it, yep, nobody's gonna buy it to put in service. Export or skoolie only. A 15 year old bus with only 90k miles? Yep, nobody's gonna buy it to put it in service. It has to be under the age limit for two years in Tennessee. So I'm not gonna buy anything older than 2005.

Boojie - Thanks as always for your unique insight (having operated so many of these). BTW, did you just drop a little nugget of wisdom I missed. Is the 545 never a push button only the manual lever? It seems finding out the trans from people can sometimes be iffy. They always know what engine but then say "oh ya its got that allison transmission". Uh, dont they all or almost all have ally? If true that would be a neat way for me to tell right off the bat.

Im done stressing over all the little differences. Thanks to the skoolie community here I think I know enough to be dangerous. Seriously contemplating going to AZ in morning and not leaving till I get a bus. A nice RE 1999 DT466 Mech with pass though I found is tempting me. Tranny, I think he said 3060 and I just did the tranny thing myself.

[fadderall]

I have read so many threads going back so many years on insurance and title that I cant keep up. I need some 2018 wisdom.

INSURANCE - Wow, more threads on this going in more directions then I can keep track of. Most info seems to be 2016 vintage with a little 2017 and a spat of 2018. What the hecks the deal?
Skoolieinsurance.com is dead.
General is dead but maybe a zombie?
State Farm maybe if you say the right thing in the right state?
USAA (my insurance) said no more RV sent to progressive who said no to everything.
AIS says on site no one likes school buses.
It seems to go on and on with different companies. In 2018, is it still the prevailing wisdom that I go to an agents office and tell them I want Commercial Vehicle for Private Use insurance? Anyone have luck with this in 2018 in Nevada? What company? Agent info by chance?
If I am going down tomorrow and drive back next day or two, I wont have time for that. Or will I? How long did it typically take for them to approve?Should I get temporary (I think its 3 day) commercial truck insurance?

CDL - No way I can get nor do I want a CDL by tomorrow. If I drive the bus from Arizona to Las Vegas and get pulled over, what exactly or typically happens? One dealer told me that the trooper will not let me drive the bus and give me a ticket. A good portion of the road from AZ to NV is in the middle of nowhere. Not even cell service. Dont want to be pulled over there. I will have all the school stuff off, lights and even the seats out before I drive back. Yes the seats will be out not pipe dreaming, found a hook up. Does doing all this help with the LEO? Any suggestions on what exactly to mention or not mention to the good officer? I only got one buddy with a CDL and he lives in Oregon dammit. Oh well, if I just white knuckle it, any suggestions on the route least likely to be a problem?
DIRECT ROUTE 93

A NICE QUIET ROAD BUT THAT STRETCH BETWEEN CONGRESS AND I40 IS EMPTY WASTELAND. LOOK IT IS EVEN CALLED NOTHING. I DONT WANT TO BE CAUGHT BETWEEN NOTHING AND BAGDAD!

THE LEISURELY ROUTE. UP THROUGH SEDONA GET MY VORTEX ENERGY TUNED UP THEN UP THE HILL TO FLAGSTAFF AND DOWN I40 93 UP. MIGHT BE A NICE SHAKE DOWN FOR THE BUS, SEE HOW IT HANDLES THE MOUNTAINS. NO MIDDLE OF NOWHERE BUT A LOT MORE INTERSTATE AND POPULATED LEO AREAS.

I know no one knows for sure but just looking for some opinions. Straight shot through the badlands or scenic drive through the mountains?

TITLE - Man oh man what a pain the paper work side of this is. Totally not clear. The Nevada DMV apparently needs the toilet, bed, kitchen etc stuff and an inspection. What about this VERMONT REGISTRATION thing? Sounds like JJ did that in this post and they still called it a bus (based on VIN I imagine). WAREWOLF claims all you have to do is call the DMV and they will send another corrected Vermont title, but this just happened so I dont know if thats right.
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f18/ho...-15292-49.html
Still, I wonder if I have that Vermont Title that says MH will I have to still jump through the Nevada hoops to get it registered Nevada MH?
Then, there is the whole issue of De-Rating the GVWR....ah well get a bus first kid, right?
I guess I can worry about title later main thing now is get it home.
Thanks guys.

[fadderall]

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie

Fadderall I'm hoping you're ok with the thread drift but I've wondered about the 466/530 (rebuild) differences for a while. East Coast, I'm thinking the mechanic was telling me, "Since we have it apart I could upgrade it to the 530 for not much more effort because yours is an HD engine." The details are fuzzy but to save me money he had me buy the parts that I could get at the same price as him. That's how he brought the subject up when he told me to get the rebuild kit. He was a wonderful independent mechanic whose family business has worked on buses for several decades. Unfortunately he closed his shop a couple of years ago, otherwise I would go ask him what exactly he said!

Boojie, no problem at all. I like all this talk. Im an ignorant sponge looking for smart water.

[boojiewoojie]

Ok, a lot more to chew on.
First, EastCoast you made me laugh. No, I don't know a lot just been a bus driver a long time because I'm a musician that couldn't find another job. Now, I kinda really like loving on the kids. I'm the one that has all the kids hanging out the window.
Now, being a contractor in my county has taught me a lot. It's my responsibility if the bus breaks down. Lots of guys (and gals) that have had a contract for 20 or more years with lots of stories about figuring out what was wrong with their bus. They buy them cheap from the rust states and put enough lipstick on them to pass inspection. It's a hoot. No, they are careful to make the bus safe. Nobody wants to see kids harmed because of negligence. The old timers just know how to fix things.
I've been on that forum but I don't post much. It's the thought of converting my bus to a skoolie that keeps me going, not the technical stuff.
And the hippie thing- absolutely. Take your time and enjoy life. That trip where we had barely converted it was truly special. Full timing for a year? Yeah, that's a little different.

OK.

You don't need a CDL! Take some tape with you to cover the school info. on the side of the bus. You don't even have to cover it completely, just a strip or two should suffice. Don't stress over a temporary tag. If it's a dealership they'll have one for you. If it's a personal sale just write "In Transit" on a piece of paper and tape it to the back window. Or not. I don't know about out west but in the east they never pull you over unless you're really doing something wrong. DON'T be on your phone!
I'm not help for you with registration. Tennessee is easy with registration. They didn't make us get commercial tags driving for a school system until two years ago! When we convert a bus all we have to do is say, "Yeah it used to be a school bus but I'm converting it to a camper." If you say skoolie they'll look at you weird. In the cities maybe it's harder.
There's an insurance agent on here that posted not long ago. He said he could write up skoolies.

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

That sounds about right. I know you know a good bit about buses. Don't you post over on the School Bus Fleet forum?

IDK where the other guys manual came from but a DT408 is a long stroke version of the DT360 and the DT530 is a long stroke variant of the 466.

International... You know that company that makes the motor.

[djdalfaro]

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie

Fadderall I'm hoping you're ok with the thread drift but I've wondered about the 466/530 (rebuild) differences for a while. East Coast, I'm thinking the mechanic was telling me, "Since we have it apart I could upgrade it to the 530 for not much more effort because yours is an HD engine." The details are fuzzy but to save me money he had me buy the parts that I could get at the same price as him. That's how he brought the subject up when he told me to get the rebuild kit. He was a wonderful independent mechanic whose family business has worked on buses for several decades. Unfortunately he closed his shop a couple of years ago, otherwise I would go ask him what exactly he said!

The reason your mechanic said this is because the difference between the 466 and the 530 is the bore, and because these are wet sleeve engines, and the rebuild kit changes the bore, as long as the rest of the components in your engine can handle the increased stresses (this is probably what he was talking about the HT engine) its an easy mod.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by djdalfaro

International... You know that company that makes the motor.

That pdf doesn't make sense... Its got nomenclature that doesn't seem too legit. They don't refer to the engines by their company given names and the 408 wasn't available in 2004.

The 466/530 use the same in-frame rebuild kit-
1836012C94 | NAVISTAR DT466E/ I530E INFRAME REBUILD KIT

http://www.astleford.com/pdf/dt466dt530brochure.pdf

the bore of the 466- 4.59x4.68
bore of the 530- 4.59x5.35

Engine Type Diesel, 4-Cycle
Configuration In-Line 6-Cylinder
Displacement 530 cu in (8.7 L)
Bore and Stroke 4.59 in x 5.35 in (116.5 mm x 139.9 mm)
Compression Ratio 17.2:1
Aspiration EVRT™ Electronically-Controlled Turbocharger and Air-to-Air Intercooled
Governed Speed 2200 rpm
Combustion System Direct Injection
Cooling System Capacity (engine only) 13.5 U.S. qt (12.8 L)
Lubricating System Capacity 30 U.S. qt* (28.4 L)
Total Engine Weight (dry) 1,425 lb (647 kg)
Dimensions 45.1" L x 29.3" W x 40.8" H (1146 mm x 744 mm x 1036 mm

Engine Type Diesel, 4-Cycle
Configuration In-Line 6-Cylinder
Displacement 466 cu in (7.6 L)
Bore and Stroke 4.59 in x 4.68 in (116.5 mm x 118.9 mm)
Compression Ratio 16.4:1
Aspiration Turbocharged with Wastegate* and Air-to-Air Intercooled
Governed Speed Std. Trq. /High Trq. 2600 rpm/2400 rpm
Combustion System Direct Injection
Cooling System Capacity (engine only) 13.5 U.S. qt (12.8 L)
Lubricating System Capacity 30 U.S. qt (28.4 L)
Total Engine Weight (dry) 1,425 lb (647 kg)
Dimensions 45.1" L x 29.3" W x 40.8" H (1146 mm x 744 mm x 1036 mm)