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Old 07-02-2016, 09:56 PM   #21
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Sounds like the kind of person who buys 6.0's. ANd no need to get all bent out of shape. I've read the giant blocks of text. I get your point.
But why anyone would take on the hassle and expense of a van with a 6.0 crammed into it is beyond me. Even in a full size bus its way more complication and hassle when there are other perfectly good engines available not needing all the special attention and rigging from aftermarket shops and suppliers. By the time anyone's getting these things on the surplus market they're a real nightmare. If the techs at the bus yards are fed up with em, that ought to tell you something.
While we may disagree, I DO see what you're getting at. None of this is meant to be any kind of flame war or anything. Just a discussion with different points of view. But it seems akin to reinventing the wheel to try to take a turd and polish it when there are such better options out there.
Your point about the transmissions is moot when it comes to fullsize buses, btw.
Definitely not bent out of shape. Yes I did buy a 6.0 in my truck. After deciding it was time to upgrade the 7 three. I too, felt the same as you about the 6 leaker. I did some research and then did some more. I realized that there was an awful lot of misinformation out there. I found that just like every other model out there, things are improved upon whichto the uninitiated, looks more complicated. In actuality, it's not much different.
The biggest difference I've noticed is that it takes more than your average stuck in the mud grease monkey to understand the issues or at least take interest in it. I wouldn't call a mechanic at a bus garage someone who would be. There are lots of Ford garages who feel the same way. In fact, there was a time when many dealers wouldn't accept a 6.0 on trade. All of that has changed since "the fixes" have proven reliable for many years and hundreds of thousands of miles.
Again, the 6.0 isn't a turd. I posted that I spent less than 2 grand to preventively fix my 6.0. I did spend more to have it done, but if time was more available than money. I would jump right in. Just like the "average" person on this forum jumps right in, instead of buying an overpriced RV.
In the big picture, the perfect bus may be available where you live in Florida. I would assume there must be lots of them in order to have "bus yards". The rest of the country might not be so lucky and that's part of the reason why I felt compelled to post. There are not a lot of 7.3s in this area because they have all rusted away around the powertrain!
I guess I kept bringing up the transmission because I'm interested in a short bus or shuttle conversion. In that chassis, the transmission is a huge plus.
My comment about those who have spent $10k on a 6 leaker and still have issues was more an obversation on what not to do. Not all problems are the engine's fault. Any owner who refuses to be proactive and monitor with gauges certain parameters has no one to blame, but themselves.
Since I've been posting big blocks of text, I'll stop after this. FICM voltage, battery voltage, coolant temperature and oil temperature differential are some of the most important things you need to understand as an owner of a 6.0 liter diesel.
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:30 AM   #22
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I don't buy FL buses. They're junk, we spend very little on schools here. I bought my current bus in KY- a good one is worth travelling for, man.
Its got air ride, mechanical DT466, Allison 643, and with a quarter million miles burns less oil than my 2013 Subaru lemon. Cost $2150 out the door. A good bus can be had for less than "fixing" a 6.0!
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
I don't buy FL buses. They're junk, we spend very little on schools here. I bought my current bus in KY- a good one is worth travelling for, man.
Its got air ride, mechanical DT466, Allison 643, and with a quarter million miles burns less oil than my 2013 Subaru lemon. Cost $2150 out the door. A good bus can be had for less than "fixing" a 6.0!
Yet what about those who wish to buy a short bus? More specifically a van chassis? Keep on teaching man!

Just remember. I said you don't "need" to do what I did with my 6.0 and I did upgrades for less than $2k.
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:49 AM   #24
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Yet what about those who wish to buy a short bus? More specifically a van chassis? Keep on teaching man!

Just remember. I said you don't "need" to do what I did with my 6.0 and I did upgrades for less than $2k.
Teaching??

As to the van chassis- I'd say avoid the aggrivation...why settle?
Dude every ford forum that talks about "6.0 bulletproofing" seem to indicate the upgrades cost significantly more than a couple grand.
A couple grand is NOTHING for a 6.0
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Old 07-03-2016, 08:49 AM   #25
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Teaching??

As to the van chassis- I'd say avoid the aggrivation...why settle?
Dude every ford forum that talks about "6.0 bulletproofing" seem to indicate the upgrades cost significantly more than a couple grand.
A couple grand is NOTHING for a 6.0
The van chassis because it's my first foray into conversion. This is a temporary home for my wife and I until our house is built, then will be used for weekend trips or short vacations. We are coming from a 3,000 square foot house that we used less than a third of it and are now renting a 2 bedroom condo that we use less than half of. A full size bus would be a waste and would limit where we could take it. To "go anywhere" we want to visit, is a 200 mile drive one way. Having the ability to park in almost any parking lot and still navigate normal city streets is imperative. Less is more nowadays. Just pokin' at ya there a little.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:12 AM   #26
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Less than $2k because you need to be smart about what you purchase and from where. Yes, I could have bought expensive Bulletproof Diesel products, but then I would have been "buying" into the hype machine. Keep researching, you'll see what I mean.
If I was foolish enough to purchase a 6.0 liter and blindly drive it until I had a failure before finding out what needs to be done preventively and monitored while driving, you could easily spend $10k fixing your screw up. It seems your knowledge of the 6.0 liter is of reactionary and oblivious owners. None of your comments or figures resonate with a 6.0 purchaser with a good head on their shoulders who did thorough research before jumping in.

Every single part I purchased was OEM except the ARP head studs, EGR delete, coolant filter, exhaust and radiator. The last 2 were upgrades I wanted to do, but didn't need to.

If I had failures first, I can see paying $3k for injectors, $800 for a FICM, $300 for batteries, $400-500 for an upgraded alternator, $1200 for a new turbo, several thousand for new heads, $500 for a new oil cooler or over $2000 for a Bulletproof Diesel oil cooler relocation kit, $250 for a EGR delete kit and I could keep going. Most, if not all of that list could be prevented with some research.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:21 AM   #27
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See? These kinds of conversations are great.
And I didn't mean "avoid van chassis buses", I meant avoid the 6.0 in one.
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:43 AM   #28
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See? These kinds of conversations are great.
And I didn't mean "avoid van chassis buses", I meant avoid the 6.0 in one.
I'm learning!
Currently I'm looking at a V10, 4R100 van chassis. I should start a thread for purchasing advice, but am not sure where I should post it? Sorry for the thread hijack OP!
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Old 07-03-2016, 02:35 PM   #29
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I looked at a lot of bsses from a lot of places.. and I like to think i got pretty decent bus... it does what I want it to.. has the "old bus feel..look, and sound".. has a few issues to fix.. drives out on the highway and makes me smile..

I was told to avoid the VT365 and the Maxxforce 7 at ALL costs... yet others said avoid the T444E.. and some said the DT-466E were all engines that would cost me crazy money...

I heard very little negative about any cummins... though some said the 5.9 was underpowered..

the same people said my DT-360 was hugely underpowered... that I must have a DT-466 or Bust..

when it came down to it.. for what i wanted.. an OLDER bus with that energy / feel / sound / etc of the busses I rode to school in..

on PURE ECONOMICS lets say I paid a similar price for a newer bus that has a working at the time or very recently failed injector.. in a VT-365.. vs an old bus with a mechanical DT466 / 360 in it.. then getting the newer bus (likely you are looking at 5-10 years newer)... you fix the VT-365 and I hear ruors that those fixes stay and the engine runs many miles.. you have a bus that has newer steering components, likely less rust, possibly easierto take things apart on... newer transmission.... windows and such that probably still seal up... heaters that work and arent plugged... maybe even road A/C....

seems like that performing the accepted fix to this "everyoe on skoolie.net hates it" engine might not be so bad after all comparatively.. and depending on what someone is doing to their bus..
-Christopher
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Old 07-03-2016, 03:00 PM   #30
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...I like to think i got pretty decent bus... it does what I want it to... drives out on the highway and makes me smile...
That's cool.
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Old 07-03-2016, 03:43 PM   #31
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I looked at a lot of bsses from a lot of places.. and I like to think i got pretty decent bus... it does what I want it to.. has the "old bus feel..look, and sound".. has a few issues to fix.. drives out on the highway and makes me smile..

I was told to avoid the VT365 and the Maxxforce 7 at ALL costs... yet others said avoid the T444E.. and some said the DT-466E were all engines that would cost me crazy money...

I heard very little negative about any cummins... though some said the 5.9 was underpowered..

the same people said my DT-360 was hugely underpowered... that I must have a DT-466 or Bust..

when it came down to it.. for what i wanted.. an OLDER bus with that energy / feel / sound / etc of the busses I rode to school in..

on PURE ECONOMICS lets say I paid a similar price for a newer bus that has a working at the time or very recently failed injector.. in a VT-365.. vs an old bus with a mechanical DT466 / 360 in it.. then getting the newer bus (likely you are looking at 5-10 years newer)... you fix the VT-365 and I hear ruors that those fixes stay and the engine runs many miles.. you have a bus that has newer steering components, likely less rust, possibly easierto take things apart on... newer transmission.... windows and such that probably still seal up... heaters that work and arent plugged... maybe even road A/C....

seems like that performing the accepted fix to this "everyoe on skoolie.net hates it" engine might not be so bad after all comparatively.. and depending on what someone is doing to their bus..
-Christopher
Thanks Christopher. I think that just about anything on the Internet may have naysayers. You just need to do your research extensively and get both sides of the story. Then make the best decision for you.
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Old 07-03-2016, 06:07 PM   #32
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Yeah there are internet naysayer for anything. Then there are just plain old problematic consumer goods that have online apologists.
Both you guys should try this 6.0 bus thing out though. I'd HONESTLY love to find an affordable way of taking advantage of the MANY CHEAP 6.0's at all the auctions, and you both seem like you have enough money to throw at a 6.0 headache machine and "make it right'.

Some discussion over on School Bus Fleet- http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/...TOPIC_ID=22511
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:20 PM   #33
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Yeah there are internet naysayer for anything. Then there are just plain old problematic consumer goods that have online apologists.
Both you guys should try this 6.0 bus thing out though. I'd HONESTLY love to find an affordable way of taking advantage of the MANY CHEAP 6.0's at all the auctions, and you both seem like you have enough money to throw at a 6.0 headache machine and "make it right'.

Some discussion over on School Bus Fleet- VT365 Woes - School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums
An 18 post 5 year old thread is your solid up to date proof? I can go to Ford Truck Enthusiasts.com or Powerstroke.org or Powerstrokenation or PowerstrokeArmy or Diesel stop or Bulletproofdiesel.com and pull up anecdotal threads or testimonial that shows your wrong.

Or incorrect enough that you shouldn't be stating your opinion as fact.
Of course there are many examples of like minded people who have issues first before doing proper research. Who complains more? Those looking to blame anyone but themselves or those owners with no problems?
It's also a highly regarded opinion that most technicians are clueless and follow what Ford or International says to do and won't/can't stray from that because they're glorified parts throwers. Not all, but those aren't the ones you want doing your work WHEN YOU'RE NOT A DYI type of person anyways. Keep looking. I haven't heard of the plastic rocker piece before. I wonder if this is a International only part or possibly the update took care of the issue? I know the pushrods have been updated to the 6.4 liter pushrod length (a little shorter).
You can listen to EastCoastCB who despite being given first hand experience, chooses to ignore it completely and reiterates half truths and opinions he read on the internet that supports his very much one-sided viewpoint with no personal experience.
Or you can realize that there is a differing opinion out there with many testimonials with positive experiences whether completely stock or modified. I have listed some of the websites you can do some research on.
I'm done with this thread and for now this website. Have a good summer everyone!
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:43 PM   #34
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An 18 post 5 year old thread is your solid up to date proof? I can go to Ford Truck Enthusiasts.com or Powerstroke.org or Powerstrokenation or PowerstrokeArmy or Diesel stop or Bulletproofdiesel.com and pull up anecdotal threads or testimonial that shows your wrong.

Or incorrect enough that you shouldn't be stating your opinion as fact.
Of course there are many examples of like minded people who have issues first before doing proper research. Who complains more? Those looking to blame anyone but themselves or those owners with no problems?
It's also a highly regarded opinion that most technicians are clueless and follow what Ford or International says to do and won't/can't stray from that because they're glorified parts throwers. Not all, but those aren't the ones you want doing your work WHEN YOU'RE NOT A DYI type of person anyways. Keep looking. I haven't heard of the plastic rocker piece before. I wonder if this is a International only part or possibly the update took care of the issue? I know the pushrods have been updated to the 6.4 liter pushrod length (a little shorter).
You can listen to EastCoastCB who despite being given first hand experience, chooses to ignore it completely and reiterates half truths and opinions he read on the internet that supports his very much one-sided viewpoint with no personal experience.
Or you can realize that there is a differing opinion out there with many testimonials with positive experiences whether completely stock or modified. I have listed some of the websites you can do some research on.
I'm done with this thread and for now this website. Have a good summer everyone!
I trust the guys over there operating school buses and fleets.
WHo cares how old the thread is? THere are newer ones, too. The 6.0's have more than fairly earned their reputation. Some folks don't just take a lemon and want to spend thousands of dollars trying to make lemonade when they can simply buy lemonade to begin with.
Why are you turning this into a personal war? Discussion, man. Its what we are here for. Half truths? Hardly. Opinions? absolutely.
Have a nice summer.
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:45 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Yeah there are internet naysayer for anything. Then there are just plain old problematic consumer goods that have online apologists.
Both you guys should try this 6.0 bus thing out though. I'd HONESTLY love to find an affordable way of taking advantage of the MANY CHEAP 6.0's at all the auctions, and you both seem like you have enough money to throw at a 6.0 headache machine and "make it right'.

Some discussion over on School Bus Fleet- VT365 Woes - School Bus Fleet Magazine Forums

perhaos listen to my POINT about it.. and that is if you find an otherwise very nice bus sbut has a VT-365 thats dropped an injector or has a bad rocker, etc.. the repairs to it very well may make that bus worthwhile..

if you are someone that has all kinds of time and skills to do everything yourself including rust removal, sealing up leaks, replacing aged parts of every type on a bus yourself then the VT-365 may not be the bus for you..

but from what I see there are a lot of very nice busses.. (oh that by the way the VT-365 runs perfectly now and doesnt have any error lamps or codes... and the oil is normal, etc). I looked at a couple... so whos to say that these VT-365s either havent already been updated or arent some that just run???

OR perhaps its not.. you buy it and it breaks.. you got a nice body, clean running bus that the engine has issues... so you drop $4-5k on the repairs to that engine.. (you dont run the poor thing into the ground!)... so you still have a nice bus at the end with the repairs...

there *ARE* a mix of people on this forum... some dont have any many.. others do.. and neither should be shunned.. not everyone is building a thin budget build.... not everyone is building a full-out home or RV...

not EVERY VT-365 blows apart in pieces or dumps oil in the crankcase or loses rockers, pushrods, etc.... there are plenty that run out their lifespan just fine...

but on a Forum for cars, busses, etc.. even 2 broken parts of the same type seems to set off alarm bells.. I went thtough it on all the car forums I am a member of... god knows the jeep wrangler forums are full of whiners that certain parts go bad.. (TIPM anyone??)..

the naysayers are in every forum.. so are the positive thinkers and the ones with knowledge of how to spot and fix broken parts too!!

god forbid even the worshipped DT-466 can and does fly apart in pieces... seen plenty of them in scrap status...

didnt someone on here recently have a nice cummins cost them an arm and a leg?

-Christopher
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:50 PM   #36
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No one's being "shunned".
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Old 07-22-2016, 07:51 AM   #37
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From a listing on GovDeals for a bus with the 365-

Quote:
Please be advised, if you are not in the bus business and have no knowledge of the VT365-175, you should not purchase this bus"
Quote:
condition AS noted....Bad Engine,!!!**** Warning
Pretty stern warning for an agency trying to sell a bus, no?

Public Surplus: Auction #1654691
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Old 08-08-2016, 05:11 PM   #38
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Here's another one

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...89&acctid=2489

https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...88&acctid=2489
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Old 08-16-2016, 04:12 AM   #39
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https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?f...473&acctid=455
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Old 08-16-2016, 07:15 AM   #40
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ting is that VT-365 is not a uge repair if someone hasnt run it into te ground and ruined it..

its problem is that an injector will stick and dump fuel into the oil... it also creates a "skip" or "miss"... thats shame on the bus driver for running the bus while it has the skip... and hsame on the fleet manager for not noticing the oil level is going UP..

to repair it youself you buy 3rd party injectors and put them in yourself.. done.. they are not super hard to install... once updated the VT-365 is pretty reliable and decently powered for a sort bus like an IC CE-200 or an IC-BE series.. I wouldnt want it in a full size CE though.... even with an allison 2000 esp if running A/C or adding a lot of weight to the bus in a conversion...

-Christopher
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