Where to start?

[cadillackid]

shade is definitely huge in keeping the inside cool.. keeping the temperature cool and not lettring it get hot is paramount over "cooling it down".. ive done severasl write-ups overthe years toward the HVAC industry I uased to be in, about air temperature in a space vs Core temperature...



a principal my grandmother spoke of when she was a kid and no one had air conditioning in their houses.. typically in summer in ohio it cools off decently at night.. so they would run electric fans in the windows and wet towels on the lesser humid days forther fans to blow over.. this would cool the house fairly nicely all night long.. in the early morning right as the sun came up her mother would go around and close up all the windows and set the fans around for circulating air inside the house.. it would stay cool well into the late afternoon before the heat made it inside and they would open the upstairs windows and eventually all of them.. they did their chores like cleaning and dishes from the night before , etc in the mornings.. dinner was cooked in the evening when the house was open and vent fans could pull out the heat.. in fact grandma said they kept the kitchen door closed (no open floorplans in the 1920s) to keep the heat in the kitchen..


point being the core temperature of the house was changed and helped to keep the air inside cool.. by the walls and floors, furniture etc being cooled off by the night air circulated with fans, during the day the reverse was true.. the walls, furniture etc helped to cool the air during the day for a time.



in your bus the object should be to keep the whole thing cool from the beginning of the day onward.. I love the idea of a canopy or dual awnings that can go across the roof as you can still get the solar heat when you want it on cold days.. permanent solutions like filling the roof with solar or a roof deck make it so you cannot get any of the heat when you do want it..



I realize everyone wants solar panels and the like for longer boondocking abilities and less reliance on fuel stations but i also love the versatility of being able to shade and unshade at will ..



like others have said its a huge difference.. my busses parked in the shade will cool down 5X as quick inside vs a bus parked in the sun, the cooler core temperature of it means the A/C doesnt have to cool all the metal, seats, floor etc nearly as much..

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

shade is definitely huge in keeping the inside cool.. keeping the temperature cool and not lettring it get hot is paramount over "cooling it down".. ive done severasl write-ups overthe years toward the HVAC industry I uased to be in, about air temperature in a space vs Core temperature...



a principal my grandmother spoke of when she was a kid and no one had air conditioning in their houses.. typically in summer in ohio it cools off decently at night.. so they would run electric fans in the windows and wet towels on the lesser humid days forther fans to blow over.. this would cool the house fairly nicely all night long.. in the early morning right as the sun came up her mother would go around and close up all the windows and set the fans around for circulating air inside the house.. it would stay cool well into the late afternoon before the heat made it inside and they would open the upstairs windows and eventually all of them.. they did their chores like cleaning and dishes from the night before , etc in the mornings.. dinner was cooked in the evening when the house was open and vent fans could pull out the heat.. in fact grandma said they kept the kitchen door closed (no open floorplans in the 1920s) to keep the heat in the kitchen..


point being the core temperature of the house was changed and helped to keep the air inside cool.. by the walls and floors, furniture etc being cooled off by the night air circulated with fans, during the day the reverse was true.. the walls, furniture etc helped to cool the air during the day for a time.



in your bus the object should be to keep the whole thing cool from the beginning of the day onward.. I love the idea of a canopy or dual awnings that can go across the roof as you can still get the solar heat when you want it on cold days.. permanent solutions like filling the roof with solar or a roof deck make it so you cannot get any of the heat when you do want it..



I realize everyone wants solar panels and the like for longer boondocking abilities and less reliance on fuel stations but i also love the versatility of being able to shade and unshade at will ..



like others have said its a huge difference.. my busses parked in the shade will cool down 5X as quick inside vs a bus parked in the sun, the cooler core temperature of it means the A/C doesnt have to cool all the metal, seats, floor etc nearly as much..

--------------------------
I completely agree, CK. I sometimes use G-Momma's technique, too.

Grandma didn't stop with just her house, she cooled her RV the same way. Some of the OG skoolie builders incorporated canopies, roof shades & upper windows for ventilation.

Roland R. Conklin's 1915 Skoolie

[Buster Crawdad]

Thanks, there surely seems to be a consensus that shade is very helpful in the cooling effort. It also would be nice to have some walk-around shade as well. As a bit of a redneck myself, I don't object to creative, though tacky-looking, innovations that serve a useful purpose. But some of the campgrounds don't care for anything more than 20 years old, period! My bus is 1994. Other campgrounds have a subjective visual appeal basis for acceptance, and it's not a matter of certain features or assets, so you have to show up and get graded or rejected, and then you're off to Love's for the night. I want function first, efficiency second and aesthetics third or fourth. It may be that if any place rejects me on the basis of vintage or attachments, I wouldn't want to stay there anyhow.

[Rucker]

Originally Posted by Buster Crawdad

I didn't find any posts discussing this, so I guess I'll start. It would seem to me that a deck over the roof would help reduce the radiant heat reaching the rooftop, but I have no idea how beneficial that is. I would also think awnings on both sides would reduce the solar impact on the windows and walls. Does anyone have a way to quantify the value of either?

A deck would block radiant heat, however not conducted heat. That deck will heat up in the sun and radiate down onto the metal roof in the shade. Just a matter of time before the interior of the bus reaches equilibrium with the top of the deck.

Solar panels are the same, but quicker to conduct.

[Veloc]

Originally Posted by Rucker

A deck would block radiant heat, however not conducted heat. That deck will heat up in the sun and radiate down onto the metal roof in the shade. Just a matter of time before the interior of the bus reaches equilibrium with the top of the deck.

Solar panels are the same, but quicker to conduct.

The airgap is important. Solar panels mounted to a large rack that could be swiveled up would allow solar panels on the roof to act as a shade. For solar panels, which themselves heat up in operation, I think I'd put an 18 inch airgap in. Build a platform, attach it to the bus with 18 inch rods, and when you arrive on site lift the platform up. Due to the weight, you'll probably want to use a servo setup to to do the actual raise and lower, and the platform will need to be pinned in place for driving.

[Buster Crawdad]

Originally Posted by Veloc

The airgap is important. Solar panels mounted to a large rack that could be swiveled up would allow solar panels on the roof to act as a shade. For solar panels, which themselves heat up in operation, I think I'd put an 18 inch airgap in. Build a platform, attach it to the bus with 18 inch rods, and when you arrive on site lift the platform up. Due to the weight, you'll probably want to use a servo setup to to do the actual raise and lower, and the platform will need to be pinned in place for driving.

This discussion is stimulating some ideas that are starting to sound attractive. I need to keep sight of the primary objective, though and the economics of it all. If a solution is a two-fer or three-fer, that helps, but if the cost is as such in the opposite direction, it's a nogo.

From the feedback I've received, Yes, shade is a significant contributor to cooling, as you'd expect. Blocking any further radiation below deck and providing an air gap to carry off static, heated air, is probably a good idea. So I'm thinking a deck with a foam panel underlayment; I dunno, 1/2", 1"... would probably yield some very favorable results in Big Sky country, but probably not so much in Bayou country, where I'd likely only be in cooler months (crawfish season) and might want some solar heat. Retractable side awnings sound like they'd help in any location, so that's probably where I should start. They wouldn't impact fuel mileage much and they are off-the-shelf technology with simple installation techniques.

So I think I will head down that path first, as it doesn't seem to have any negatives at all. And if I want to go even further with a roof deck (my wife would never get up on it, so I'd be partying alone) I also don't think I'd want to be up on it for long without shade. So a roof deck without canopy doesn't sound like it offers enough bang for the buck. I'll mull over some of the ideas and see what makes sense, or if I'll have adequate shore power to just use more AC, more economically. I'm trying to keep it mostly a 30 amp system, but I do have a 50 amp setup in case I need more juice.

[somewhereinusa]

I'm just going to chime in here with my personal observance of what I have on MY bus.
I have about 2/3 of my roof covered by solar panels that, for the most part, have a fair amount of clearance above the roof. When I measure the temperature of ceiling inside the part with the panels is cooler than the part without.
I also have awnings on both sides. They make a tremendous difference when sitting in the sun with the windows open. When SWMBO is not with me I very rarely turn on the AC. (She thinks 70° is hot, I'm not comfortable until it gets to at least 72°)
On a side note MCI built some coaches with a double roof for export to Saudi Arabia. https://www.google.com/search?q=saud...ih=995&dpr=0.9

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by somewhereinusa

I'm just going to chime in here with my personal observance of what I have on MY bus.
I have about 2/3 of my roof covered by solar panels that, for the most part, have a fair amount of clearance above the roof. When I measure the temperature of ceiling inside the part with the panels is cooler than the part without.
I also have awnings on both sides. They make a tremendous difference when sitting in the sun with the windows open. When SWMBO is not with me I very rarely turn on the AC. (She thinks 70° is hot, I'm not comfortable until it gets to at least 72°)
On a side note MCI built some coaches with a double roof for export to Saudi Arabia. https://www.google.com/search?q=saud...ih=995&dpr=0.9

good thing you have TWO minisplits.. you have ZONES.. you can hang out upfront with the A/C on 76 and she can hang out in back with the A/C on 66 same principle I use in my House...Zones..
portioning things off is huge concept too.. putting up an insulated curtain that can close off the driver area in the hottest part of the day if you arent driving the bus can really help the interior.. I use the reverse.. I have a simple Cheap clear shower cirtain I put up in my 1978 Superior behind the first row of seats.. i only have one Dashboard air conditioner.. and it keeps me nice n cool while driving.. with that simple cheap uninsulated plastic curtain.. the temperature difference behind it is 30 degrees higher on average than right in front of it.. and of course closer to the air conditioner where i am is cold.. an insulated curtain can make a huge difference in the heat load inside the bus staying in an unused area...

[PandorasSoapbox]

this is super great advice for my needs too, thank you! and Teschner, have you ever considered just driving the car behind the bus? A. you wont be putting all that stress on the bus, and b. (lol) you and your wife can switch off who drives the bus and who drives the car in peace with their music of choice. Or who rides with mom and dad in the car and has a nice long chat about something. but good luck! also, maybe look into a layout thats more hallway on the side instead of down the middle. I know the bunk beds in the hallway is super popular, but Ive seen some blueprints that are a bit different and work alot better for some people! Best of luck!

[DeMac]

Originally Posted by PandorasSoapbox

this is super great advice for my needs too, thank you! and Teschner, have you ever considered just driving the car behind the bus? A. you wont be putting all that stress on the bus, and b. (lol) you and your wife can switch off who drives the bus and who drives the car in peace with their music of choice. Or who rides with mom and dad in the car and has a nice long chat about something. but good luck! also, maybe look into a layout thats more hallway on the side instead of down the middle. I know the bunk beds in the hallway is super popular, but Ive seen some blueprints that are a bit different and work alot better for some people! Best of luck!

‐-------------------
Welcome to the Insane Asylum, PandorasSoapbox. We love new members.



Fellow Floridian, tell us about yourself & your bus.
You could also start a new thread in the
New Members Intros - Say Hello!

I'm partial to a side-hall, too. We're looking forward to hearing more about your conversion.

[Buster Crawdad]

Thanks for that bit regarding ceiling temps, but if you had some numbers on covered vs open to sun, that would be real helpful. If you get a chance and maybe have an IR temp gun, that would be great intel.
What kind of insulation is in your roof; OEM fiberglass? Panel Foam? spray foam? Although we're past peak heat, if you could get a chance when it's good and sunny with the sun up high, noting the ceiling temps would be great to know. I can probably mock something like that up myself as I have a 20' x 10' tarp I could redneck rig for a static test. I appreciate you!
BC

[Veloc]

On an actual rooftop deck, I suggest checking with your insurance company before putting one up. Some companies won't cover a bus with a deck.

I wouldn't think building what would effectively be a tent for the top would be that expensive.

[Buster Crawdad]

Veloc, thanks for your reply, but I'm not quite sure what you're thinking of in terms on insurance... As I see it, there's little difference between a deck on a bus and a roof rack on a Subaru, and 90+% of those have aftermarket racks.
If it is the potential of leaks due to putting holes in the roof, I am very much opposed to any holes added to a perfectly good, watertight roof. I'm almost phobic about piercing the topskin for any reason, so if I were to deck, all supports would be in the side channels, and my Thomas is deigned to allow for some leakage into the walls with tar-like coated drain channels that empty in the rear corners when water does get in there. But maybe I'm going off on a tangent here.
Maybe it's the raised CG and tip-over potential? Solar panels would have equivalent potential in both drip and tip situations, I'd think. BTW, although nobody asked, I got my (progressive) policy through AAA and for complete coverage with comprehensive, liability, personal property, medical and uninsured amigo protection, it's less than $300-/year. I could get liability only for under $100-.

[Veloc]

Originally Posted by Buster Crawdad

Veloc, thanks for your reply, but I'm not quite sure what you're thinking of in terms on insurance... As I see it, there's little difference between a deck on a bus and a roof rack on a Subaru, and 90+% of those have aftermarket racks.
If it is the potential of leaks due to putting holes in the roof, I am very much opposed to any holes added to a perfectly good, watertight roof. I'm almost phobic about piercing the topskin for any reason, so if I were to deck, all supports would be in the side channels, and my Thomas is deigned to allow for some leakage into the walls with tar-like coated drain channels that empty in the rear corners when water does get in there. But maybe I'm going off on a tangent here.
Maybe it's the raised CG and tip-over potential? Solar panels would have equivalent potential in both drip and tip situations, I'd think. BTW, although nobody asked, I got my (progressive) policy through AAA and for complete coverage with comprehensive, liability, personal property, medical and uninsured amigo protection, it's less than $300-/year. I could get liability only for under $100-.

The concern for a rooftop deck for insurance companies is lawsuits. You have a deck, invite someone up, they fall off and sue. If your insurance company doesn't allow for a rooftop deck, they'll void the policy and you'll be on the hook for a personal injury suit. They may say no, we won't cover or yes we'll cover but as a rider which costs X dollars more a year. Better to find out the easy way now, than the hard way later.

[Buster Crawdad]

Ah yes, Jumpoff Joe and Falloff Phil are always ready to file a suit and Larry Lawyer (L.H.Parker for example) is always willing to "fight for you" and beat the evil insurance company out of business. Not a fan of Larry or Big I, but they are necessary evils at cross-purposes. I am reluctant to let anyone get on a ladder anywhere on my property for that reason, but it doesn't stop after Big I makes a settlement; Larry will come after you for all you're worth too. I've had a little experience with addicts so desperate for a fix they'll deliberately injure themselves and then try to get a $$$ settlement so they can lay around on their ass and take more drugs. Solution: Don't give access, much less invite anyone on the deck.