EPS Stop Engine, Check Trans

[bb12489]

Hi all,

We went out to our bus today to replace the batteries with fresh ones, and to start it up and run for a few. It's been sitting for a couple weeks since we drove it back from GA. We got the batteries hooked up, but when I go to turn the key, I get a loud beeping, and the Check Trans, and EPS Stop Engine light is on. At this point the bus won't crank over.

I checked all my battery connections on the terminals to make sure everything was making contact. All seems to be good there. I did also recently remove the TCM about a week ago since I'll be getting it reprogrammed soon. So this morning I hooked it back up before we replaced the batteries. Since the check trans light was on, I was wondering if it could be something with the TCM? I triple check the connectors on the TCM to make sure everything is seated properly.

I can't seem to figure this out. Any help is appreciated!

Bus Starting

Battery Connections

[ewo1]

Originally Posted by bb12489

Hi all,

We went out to our bus today to replace the batteries with fresh ones, and to start it up and run for a few. It's been sitting for a couple weeks since we drove it back from GA. We got the batteries hooked up, but when I go to turn the key, I get a loud beeping, and the Check Trans, and EPS Stop Engine light is on. At this point the bus won't crank over.

I checked all my battery connections on the terminals to make sure everything was making contact. All seems to be good there. I did also recently remove the TCM about a week ago since I'll be getting it reprogrammed soon. So this morning I hooked it back up before we replaced the batteries. Since the check trans light was on, I was wondering if it could be something with the TCM? I triple check the connectors on the TCM to make sure everything is seated properly.

I can't seem to figure this out. Any help is appreciated!

Bus Starting

Battery Connections

Well first of all, please fill out your user profile so when one asks for help, any reader can just look at your profile and see what you got, and then we can then help you better!

That being said, because I do not know what kind of rig you got, if your tranny is an MD 3000 series, if the TCM is bad or not seeing power, the bus won’t even crank.

Since you played with the batteries, have you checked both your ECU And TCM fuses?

[ewo1]

So I looked at your previous 3 threads and I see you do have an MD3060 tranny.

When you turn the key to the “ON” position, what do you see on the tranny push pad, numbers, letters, 2 lines that look like this -> “ -/-“ or is the pushpad dark, does not light up?



Nevermind the question, I just saw your video and can see that the pushpad displays an “N” when you turn the key.

This is good as it tells you the TCM fuse is good and the TCM is communicating.

Did you disconnect or remove any wiring? Door or window sensors?

Since you already removed and replaced, I would also reinspect the TCM connection, maybe it is not seated properly?

[bb12489]

Originally Posted by ewo1

So I looked at your previous 3 threads and I see you do have an MD3060 tranny.

When you turn the key to the “ON” position, what do you see on the tranny push pad, numbers, letters, 2 lines that look like this -> “ -/-“ or is the pushpad dark, does not light up?



Nevermind the question, I just saw your video and can see that the pushpad displays an “N” when you turn the key.

This is good as it tells you the TCM fuse is good and the TCM is communicating.

Did you disconnect or remove any wiring? Door or window sensors?

Since you already removed and replaced, I would also reinspect the TCM connection, maybe it is not seated properly?

Apologies for the lack of details in my profile. just updated them. The push pad does display N whenever I turn the key over. I haven't touched any wiring in the bus, aside from swapping in fresh batteries today, and unplugging the TCM a few days ago.

Any wiring related to the door or windows was disabled by the previous owner. Or so he said. We drove it from GA to NC without any issue. I stopped and started it a couple different times along the way. So I'm leaning towards anything I might have done recently.

I did hook the TCM back up to the bus before installing the new batteries. I eventually went back and double checked the connections on the TCM twice over when I was getting the dash messages about Check Trans. I can't imagine just unplugging the TCM for a few days and plugging it back in would cause this. Let alone installing new batteries.

[joeblack5]

In your starting video. Some relay is rattling when you turn the key. Then you state it does not allow you to turn the key. What do you mean it does not allow to turn the key.. is there a mechanical interlock in the key mechanism that prevents you from turning the key or do you mean the relay does not rattle the second time you try to start.. what if you repeat the procedure from scratch..turn off..contact...start.
Is the relay sound coming from the starter solenoid?

[ewo1]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

In your starting video. Some relay is rattling when you turn the key. Then you state it does not allow you to turn the key. What do you mean it does not allow to turn the key.. .......

Is the relay sound coming from the starter solenoid?

I too just reviewed the starting video...this time with some sound!
joeblack pointed out to a rattling relay and i too heard it on the video.

To me is sounds like either low batteries or a poor connection somewhere that is not allowing for full current flow.
I know you put new batteries in...that just means they are new. sometimes even though they are new they might be half dead.

Undo you battery connections, clean real good...also look at the other side of those cables.. check your frame/chassis ground to make sure it is not rusted out.

The reason the key won't continue to turn, just flip back to full OFF...does it work again?
It could be a safety feature so you don't blow up your starter.

Is your bus a rear engine? can you try starting it from the rear to see what it does?

Rear starting busses have two starting circuits divided usually by a diode. both circuits though are tied to the one battery source so that is why it is really important to check the unseen side of those battery cables.

The dash light coming on when you turn the key, that is normal, supposed to happen. Once the bus starts they should go out.

[BamaBus]

Why does the volt meter peg out when key is turned on? Are the small wires where they are supposed to be?

[bb12489]

Originally Posted by ewo1

I too just reviewed the starting video...this time with some sound!
joeblack pointed out to a rattling relay and i too heard it on the video.

To me is sounds like either low batteries or a poor connection somewhere that is not allowing for full current flow.
I know you put new batteries in...that just means they are new. sometimes even though they are new they might be half dead.

Undo you battery connections, clean real good...also look at the other side of those cables.. check your frame/chassis ground to make sure it is not rusted out.

The reason the key won't continue to turn, just flip back to full OFF...does it work again?
It could be a safety feature so you don't blow up your starter.

Is your bus a rear engine? can you try starting it from the rear to see what it does?

Rear starting busses have two starting circuits divided usually by a diode. both circuits though are tied to the one battery source so that is why it is really important to check the unseen side of those battery cables.

The dash light coming on when you turn the key, that is normal, supposed to happen. Once the bus starts they should go out.

My bus is a front engine. I'll be bringing my multimeter with me next time I'm out at the bus. I did check cables to make sure they are making clean contact on the battery terminals. I have not check anywhere else for ground connections outside of the battery compartment.

Originally Posted by BamaBus

Why does the volt meter peg out when key is turned on? Are the small wires where they are supposed to be?

I noticed this too. I'm not sure why this is pegging when I turn the key over.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by BamaBus

Why does the volt meter peg out when key is turned on? Are the small wires where they are supposed to be?

did you perhaps connect your 2 new batteries in series instead of parallel?


the cables that go from battery to battery need to go negative on one to negative on the other and positive on one to positive on the other...


if you went positive on one to negative on the other and vice versa you would be pushing 24 volts into the system which would cause the violt gauge to peg and likely throw the computer into a tizzy if it didnt damage it.. ive not see na school bus that ran 24 volts.. (coach busses sometimes do)..

[magnakansas]

Before I made my to Cadillac's post I was thinking the same thing..... series connection was made instead of parallel.

william

[bb12489]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

did you perhaps connect your 2 new batteries in series instead of parallel?


the cables that go from battery to battery need to go negative on one to negative on the other and positive on one to positive on the other...


if you went positive on one to negative on the other and vice versa you would be pushing 24 volts into the system which would cause the violt gauge to peg and likely throw the computer into a tizzy if it didnt damage it.. ive not see na school bus that ran 24 volts.. (coach busses sometimes do)..

I connected the negative of battery 1 to the negative of battery 2, and the positive of battery 1 to the positive of battery 2.

I then connected the positive side of the harness to the positive terminal on battery 1, and the negative side of the harness on the negative terminal of battery 2.

It should show in my battery connection video if you haven't seen it yet. I wanted to get a sanity check to make sure it's connected properly.

[BamaBus]

Originally Posted by bb12489

I connected the negative of battery 1 to the negative of battery 2, and the positive of battery 1 to the positive of battery 2.

I then connected the positive side of the harness to the positive terminal on battery 1, and the negative side of the harness on the negative terminal of battery 2.

It should show in my battery connection video if you haven't seen it yet. I wanted to get a sanity check to make sure it's connected properly.

The large battery cables are installed correctly but I wonder about the smaller wires. Being the only thing that has changed are the batteries being reinstalled, is it possible that the smaller wires are not correct? I can't really tell if the colors are different to indicate where they go. They both have some paint on them in the same spot. So why are they on two different terminals. Originally were the battery post polarities side by side as they are now or opposing each other? If the one wire is not supposed to be on the positive post it may be feeding extra voltage to make the gauge to spike.
That's all I got. Good luck.

[Albatross]

Originally Posted by bb12489

I can't imagine just unplugging the TCM for a few days and plugging it back in would cause this. Let alone installing new batteries.

Never underestimate the stupidity of electrical circuitry these days--especially since accountants have become involved with the design and production of electrical circuits.

[bb12489]

Originally Posted by BamaBus

The large battery cables are installed correctly but I wonder about the smaller wires. Being the only thing that has changed are the batteries being reinstalled, is it possible that the smaller wires are not correct? I can't really tell if the colors are different to indicate where they go. They both have some paint on them in the same spot. So why are they on two different terminals. Originally were the battery post polarities side by side as they are now or opposing each other? If the one wire is not supposed to be on the positive post it may be feeding extra voltage to make the gauge to spike.
That's all I got. Good luck.
Attachment 67358

The bus originally had only a single battery that everything was connected to, but I knew that it normally needed two. Hence the upgrade. The two smaller cables were originally connected to the positive and negative terminals on a single battery. The red to positive, and black/grey to negative.

Since I wired these two batteries in parallel, I assumed that these two smaller cables also needed to be hooked up the same way the larger cables are.

[BamaBus]

I watched the starting video again and noticed the batteries sounded weak, like trying to boost start with some low cost jumper cables from the dollar store. It appears when you went to Advanced you also bought some small gauge wires to connect the batteries together and may not be getting the proper voltage. I wonder if you put the heavy gauge wires on the same battery if it would crank. Regardless of what the issue turns out to be, I would invest in some better cables.

[cadillackid]

that should be right unless a battery was labelled backwards..



I guess knowing its acting wierd, I get out a meter and measure what you have at the cable headed off the bank to ground across to the positive cable leaving the bank.. make sure that you have 12.xx volts standing..



**SOME** of the allison stuff is designed to work at 12 or 24 and accept either.. no idea on your exact parts...



I just wanted to have you start at the simple and go forward. . the bus worked and the main place thats been worked on is the battery box.. the small wires shopuld also be pulled off at the same spots as the large and it should be a 12 volt bank (and probably is).. but its an easy think to check..

[bb12489]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

that should be right unless a battery was labelled backwards..



I guess knowing its acting wierd, I get out a meter and measure what you have at the cable headed off the bank to ground across to the positive cable leaving the bank.. make sure that you have 12.xx volts standing..



**SOME** of the allison stuff is designed to work at 12 or 24 and accept either.. no idea on your exact parts...



I just wanted to have you start at the simple and go forward. . the bus worked and the main place thats been worked on is the battery box.. the small wires shopuld also be pulled off at the same spots as the large and it should be a 12 volt bank (and probably is).. but its an easy think to check..

I'll check with my multimeter the next time I'm out at the bus. It's in a storage lot at the moment. I did try with a single battery too (one of the new ones), and I got the same result. Can I take these back to Advanced and have them charge up the batteries if they are low? I don't have electric at the storage lot, and don't have a battery charger at home.

[BamaBus]

Originally Posted by bb12489

I'll check with my multimeter the next time I'm out at the bus. It's in a storage lot at the moment. I did try with a single battery too (one of the new ones), and I got the same result. Can I take these back to Advanced and have them charge up the batteries if they are low? I don't have electric at the storage lot, and don't have a battery charger at home.

Absolutely take them back to be recharged if they test low. Check each one separately for voltage 12.6 or higher being they are new. I always check voltage when purchasing, especially from Advance (but that won't happen any more).

[HamSkoolie]

New batteries can often sit on the shelf for some time. This is particularly true in a low volume store or if they are either expensive or not a popular size and capacity.....everyone wants to save a buck. So they may not have been at full capacity when you started out.

As others have said, the "rattling" solenoid noise is an indication of insufficient current meaning low batteries.You may very well have installed new batteries that were already low. The starting attempts may have been sending insufficient current to start the engine but enough to drain yet more from the batteries. They need to be charged and tested.

You can test the general condition of their charge with a multimeter but the only way to test their true condition is a full charge, let them "settle", and then perform a load test. The multimeter test is the first to do. Disconnect them from everything and put the multimeter to the terminals. A 12 volt battery has only half a charge at 12 volts. You want to see 12.6 or higher (higher is better).



While a battery charger won't do you any good at the bus site due to not having power there you need a battery charger. If your build plans include a generator, purchase that and a battery charger and you'll have the ability to charge your batteries independent of grid power. Don't cheap out on the charger either. Get a "smart" charger and it will serve you well.
Smart chargers generally have 3 or 4 charge levels and sense which is appropriate. When a battery is deeply discharged they apply the highest current (for the battery technology, in this case lead acid) and then "step down" as the battery becomes charged. They then apply a constant "maintenance" or "float" current to maintain the battery at it's maximum capacity.
It may not be your batteries since you also disconnected the TCM but so many times the "help my bus won't start" plea is solved by charging the batteries. It's most often (but certainly not always) that or the wires they cut out or disconnected.

[ewo1]

How about trying something really old school... jumper cables!

Find yourself some with a diesel engine truck where they too have two batteries for starting, put on the jumpers and let it sit for 15 minutes, then try cranking it!

If that works - batteries need charging...if not, we'll keep trying to help you!