How much more expensive are 2007 and newer buses to own and maintain?

[Gyrkin]

I drive school bus for a living and have driven a good number of different busses with and without emissions control. The ones that have been the most trouble are the early years of the emissions changes. The ones that have regenerative exhaust but do not use DEF fluid. Those busses were always breaking down. We still have two in our fleet and can't wait to get rid of them. The newer ones (2010 and on) that use DEF fluid have been pretty trouble free.

[Bus'n it]

Originally Posted by Gyrkin

I drive school bus for a living and have driven a good number of different busses with and without emissions control. The ones that have been the most trouble are the early years of the emissions changes. The ones that have regenerative exhaust but do not use DEF fluid. Those busses were always breaking down. We still have two in our fleet and can't wait to get rid of them. The newer ones (2010 and on) that use DEF fluid have been pretty trouble free.

That is interesting as my 2008 Sprinter van that had regenerative emissions without DEF was the costliest vehicle I have ever owned. There is not one part of that emissions system that has not been replaced. I bought that van new. My 2018 Ram 2500 diesel also bought new has not had a lick of issues and it has the DEF. If I were to buy a newer vehicle, I would opt for the DEF despite the added expense if something should go wrong. I believe the DEF does keep the system clean.

[DAVEHOLMAN]

My only comment is...2007 engines are usually in 2008 busses.
I have a 2007 Thomas, with the last of the pre-EGR, 2006 Mercedes diesels.
And that was a big selling point. No EGR, but yes air seats, abs, etc, and just all around better condition than the 1983 I was pushing previously. Which saved a ton of time and money in conversion.

[cofrari]

I'm 18-months into ownership on my MaxxForce DT and so far I have had no issues. I paid $3500 for my 2008 just as it was coming out of service. Luckily the EGR was totally replaced just before I got it, so I'm hoping I'm in the clear.


My rationale was that I'm getting a bus for cheaper, less mileage, minimal surface rust, brand new tires; where I could bank the savings to cover a costly repair IF it happens. So far, 10,000 miles and 18-months in, it's been great!

[WiredForStereo]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Some of the results are eye opening.. ie a Jeep Wrangler had less environmental impact than a Prius ..

This comes from a study done in 2008. It is no longer accurate.

Top 12 greenest cars (cradle to grave) are all hybrids or EVs, with the top spot held by the Prius Prime. (I didn't buy one last time around because though it is the greenest, it is not the most economical).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz...h=15ae0745c5be

[Oldyeller]

Once, back in the early 2000's, a consultant came into my shop for some ' consulting'. He was into saving the envoronment and wasn't afraid to tell me about it. I listened for a few days of this then asked him how many children he had. He proudly announced that he had 4. I informed him that by having 4 children he had done more harm to the environment than someone without children could do during a lifetime of conspicuous consumption. To his credit, he paused, thought about it and admitted the truth of it.

How many of you have children?

[mokibrabrant]

You pays your money you takes your chances. My rule of thumb is simple.
I DO NOT WANT. EGR-TCU-ECU-SENSORS-DPF-DEF-MULTI GRADE OILS OR SYNTHETICS-HAND HELD SCANNERS.
If they have it I'm out.

I do want lights and gauges that function as they should, drive trains that don't weepy or leak fluids. And an axle ratio designed to keep me in the HP/TQ curve.
And big exhaust.
If I am going to own one of the latest greatest over engineered crap shoots.
Then prior to purchase I want to understand everything I can to remove and/or delete.
I know what I want. That's just me.
Don't need Limp Mode and DPF generated fires. And endless diagnostics and sensor and clutch pack replacements to find out thousands of dollars later and months of delay: It was all a cracked wire and cross talk between the alternator and the ECU. Your mileage will vary. Creative Destruction and planned obsolescence.
Welcome to America. Pilgrim.

[Bus'n it]

Originally Posted by Oldyeller

Once, back in the early 2000's, a consultant came into my shop for some ' consulting'. He was into saving the envoronment and wasn't afraid to tell me about it. I listened for a few days of this then asked him how many children he had. He proudly announced that he had 4. I informed him that by having 4 children he had done more harm to the environment than someone without children could do during a lifetime of conspicuous consumption. To his credit, he paused, thought about it and admitted the truth of it.

How many of you have children?

No kids for us and yet no one will wipe my ass when I get old… that’s ok. Enjoying life my wife and I…

[Bus'n it]

Originally Posted by mokibrabrant

You pays your money you takes your chances. My rule of thumb is simple.
I DO NOT WANT. EGR-TCU-ECU-SENSORS-DPF-DEF-MULTI GRADE OILS OR SYNTHETICS-HAND HELD SCANNERS.
If they have it I'm out.

I do want lights and gauges that function as they should, drive trains that don't weepy or leak fluids. And an axle ratio designed to keep me in the HP/TQ curve.
And big exhaust.
If I am going to own one of the latest greatest over engineered crap shoots.
Then prior to purchase I want to understand everything I can to remove and/or delete.
I know what I want. That's just me.
Don't need Limp Mode and DPF generated fires. And endless diagnostics and sensor and clutch pack replacements to find out thousands of dollars later and months of delay: It was all a cracked wire and cross talk between the alternator and the ECU. Your mileage will vary. Creative Destruction and planned obsolescence.
Welcome to America. Pilgrim.

I’m with you on all you said. Funny that 99% of the time, it’s a bad wire/connection that leads to parts replacements when the techs do find the bad connection but sell the consumer on it having been a bad component. That’s what scares me the most about the new computerized stuff

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by mokibrabrant

You pays your money you takes your chances. My rule of thumb is simple.
I DO NOT WANT. EGR-TCU-ECU-SENSORS-DPF-DEF-MULTI GRADE OILS OR SYNTHETICS-HAND HELD SCANNERS.
If they have it I'm out.

I do want lights and gauges that function as they should, drive trains that don't weepy or leak fluids. And an axle ratio designed to keep me in the HP/TQ curve.
And big exhaust.
If I am going to own one of the latest greatest over engineered crap shoots.
Then prior to purchase I want to understand everything I can to remove and/or delete.
I know what I want. That's just me.
Don't need Limp Mode and DPF generated fires. And endless diagnostics and sensor and clutch pack replacements to find out thousands of dollars later and months of delay: It was all a cracked wire and cross talk between the alternator and the ECU. Your mileage will vary. Creative Destruction and planned obsolescence.
Welcome to America. Pilgrim.

I embrace the new tech.. enough to know how to fix it.. because at some point this is going to be the old-tech and its going to be the only thing easily attainable.. hello? try and go buy a DT466 / MT643 combo these days? those that have em for sale know what they got and you'll pay more than twice what you will for an 07+ granted the curve is still such that the 07+ stuff can easily cost you more than paying that high price for the mechanical drivetrain.. so its still attainable in some form and definitely buildable for those with high skill levels..


when i started cruising this forum back in 08 / 09 everyone SWORE theyd never touch a DT466E or a CAT-3126E and even the T-444E had a bad rap... once the kinks were worked out many of those drivetrain choices ended up being pretty rock solid..



as many 4300 / 4600 trucks out there that are running Maxxforces and freightliner FL series running Cat-C7s and mercedes series motors that the aftermarket comes to the rescue for parts and pieces to make them run pretty good.. even without deleting them..



more and more states esp on the coasts will adopt laws that say you cant even drive your mechanical diesel in their state at some point will make some who live or want to travel the coastals end up purchasing such beasts..



now is the time to learn them when you arent forced to own one, so if the unthinkable happens and you total your older bus you can be knowledgeable in how to buy a newer rig.. and to help educate those looking to do it..



or maybe even cashing in on being able to repair them or produce an aftermarket part that people flock to buy..



right now? nope theres no real reason that one *MUST* buy an 07+ as theres still plenty of 03 and older busses coming up for auction which dont even don an EGR ..personally im learning alot about them..how they work, how to fix them and such.. they do tend to be really powerful, have by far better transmissions than the predecessors and get better MPGs.. now once we got to the DEF era of the 2010 / 2012 time frame the MPG argument is out the door as pouring DEF fluid in negates any MPG gains..



the transmissions definitely are a bigger key to MPG than the engines.. and of course I and others have proven its possiuble to outfit older busses with very modern transmissions.. at a cost.. my allison swap in my red bus wasnt cheap (doing it with new performance parts).. however that swap has proven itself to be rock solid and took a bus that got 7-8 MPG to 11-14..
not all the new stuff is bad or unreliable..

[cadillackid]

I have no kids
I have a Freestyle Life instead.. and nope im in no way a tree hugger.. sorry about everyone's luck here.. I build and play with cool fun stuff that may burn lots of fuel at times...

[mokibrabrant]

Embrace all you like. Being stranded and towed hither and yon because of a cracked wire or bad connection is not in my future.
These forums as well as others are replete with the failures and costs of these dream machines made better through computerization and catalytic converters and EGR's and regeneration cycles and the like.
Embrace away.
It's not complicated.
And it all comes with a cost.
Pay me now or pay me later.
You seem to know what you want and I surely do. All the rest is ancedotal.
I'll pay more for my mechanical machines. Save more in the long run. And it's always been and will always be HP and Torque and rear axle ratios. Final drives in an Allison can be over come.

[LargeMargeInBaja]

2003, we converted a 1997 Ford CF8000 commercial truck to our concept of an ExpeditionVehicle.
Cummins 8.3, Allison 3060.
.
A couple-three years ago, we replaced the radiator.
.
After nearly two decades full-time live-aboard, our cost-per-use is less than zero.
.
I hope this helps!

[mokibrabrant]

Originally Posted by LargeMargeInBaja

2003, we converted a 1997 Ford CF8000 commercial truck to our concept of an ExpeditionVehicle.
Cummins 8.3, Allison 3060.
.
A couple-three years ago, we replaced the radiator.
.
After nearly two decades full-time live-aboard, our cost-per-use is less than zero.
.
I hope this helps!

Well I'm an advocate of repurposing. I have a Ford C8000 Super Cab in Hawaii that has cost me about the same as yours to run.
And as well for mainland travels this 87 Federal. Mid Engined all aluminum Dive Rescue. 6V92TA @360HP and HT740 Allison only cost this far oil change and tires. So yeah I like me the good stuff.

[LargeMargeInBaja]

We have zero-zero-zero experience with 2007 and newer, with engine computers, with Exhaust Fluid gizmos.
.
Our 1997 Ford CF8000 has a Cummins 505ci mechanical.
We tow a 1996 Dodge 2500 4x4 Cummins 359ci mechanical.
(Some folks use metrifical equivalents; I am fine with good old American standards... except in Canada so 14,683 hectares per kilo-hour seems getting there quicklier than regular mph.)
.
The aircraft I fly use a mechanical magneto system.
For reliability?
You decide.
.
.
For a hoot, I peruse RecreationVehicle forums.
Posters seem to be in the 'more money than brains' category.
A couple examples:
* Despite thousands of threads about exploding refrigerators, TrueBelievers are absolutely certain it only happens to somebody else.
* Despite thousands of threads cursing Exhaust Fluid contraptions, TrueBeleivers are convinced the dang things won't strand them ON THE WAY HOME FROM THE DEALER.
.
Maybe I am just old fashioned, stuck in my rut.
zuck, gates, bezos... no thanks.

[cadillackid]

There’s definitely something to be said for the old mechanical busses. Don’t get me wrong I love my new stuff. My cars with all the screens and automatic climate etc.. but I do very much enjoy cruising my dev bus all over the country which is a mechanical Bosch pump paired to a bulletproof Mechanical automatic that’s been around for many decades..

but I got it in 2016 and even then such busses were getting hard to find.. and more than one was interested and actually looking at the bus I bought .. I had a gentleman’s agreement on price and date to get it but of course no deal is done till the cash changes hands so others were looking at it and had I not made it that day would’ve been bought..

Nowadays such machines are even harder to get .. and be honest most people don’t have the skills or tools to build their own mechanical drivetrain bus. I’m only advocating educating people on how the new stuff works because soon it’s all there will be.. and even more if you want to travel certain states you must have something newer. RVs used to be exempted but that’s not the case.. certain US states are going to preclude you from even driving through their state. So if the west coast is on someone’s bucket list then they need to take into account the legalities.

Fortunately for me my dad loved (and seemed only to love) going west so I spent my childhood and teenhood trekking every attraction from Colorado on west and north south from there too. I have no desire to go there much anymore on the ground .. but for many the west is a place of wonder and adventure they have never seen before…

I’m not disputing that my mechanical dt360 or your Cummins 505 will outlast a Maxxforce DT or a Cummins 6.7 but go try to find these old gems.. ya gotta really look it be skillful enough to build it. I sure didn’t want an AT545 when I got mine but I knew I had the skill to upgrade it when I blew it up. And that’s exactly how it went down..

[Tin Roadtube Vagrant]

I've worked in the trucking and off-road repair business for 27 years. The glory years of diesel have passed. It was 1990-2003. That was a period of superior performance and reliability. The early electronic engines were fantastic and making 1 million miles. What we have now after 2007 is a white elephant system. The engineering is impressive, but the reality isn't. The end of life users will not enjoy a low cost reliable machine.

The Volvo's I work on daily have a software and hardware "strip kit" to remove all software and emissions hard parts so the machines can be sold to Africa to finish their service life as tier 2 (essentially emission free) engine. The end of life user for a fully Tier 4 engine is in Africa...… after it has been emissions-stripped and reprogrammed. Don't be an end of life user in USA, doesn't work.