How much more expensive are 2007 and newer buses to own and maintain?

[Dusbriver]

Hi, noob here. I’ve been lurking and researching and understand that the general recommendation is to look for 2006 and earlier buses, due to the emissions requirements (DPF/DEF fluid) from 2007 on. Since we are also looking for one in the best condition with lowest miles, I’m wondering how much more complicated and expensive a more recent model would be? If the idea that cleaner emissions is better for everyone, (as we all breathe the same air), might it be a cost worth consideration? Anybody with a later model care to chime in? TIA.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by Dusbriver

Hi, noob here. I’ve been lurking and researching and understand that the general recommendation is to look for 2006 and earlier buses, due to the emissions requirements (DPF/DEF fluid) from 2007 on. Since we are also looking for one in the best condition with lowest miles, I’m wondering how much more complicated and expensive a more recent model would be? If the idea that cleaner emissions is better for everyone, (as we all breathe the same air), might it be a cost worth consideration? Anybody with a later model care to chime in? TIA.

After spending an evening with the manager of the local Navistar repair shop I'd be inclined to avoid any emissions era diesel. Its not just the added complexity- the quality of manufacturing just isn't good.
Buses are a perfect example of "they sure don't build em like they used to".

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by Dusbriver

cleaner emissions is better for everyone

Cleaner emissions is better for everyone, but the amount put out by skoolies (and RVs in general) is so small compared to that put out by commercial trucks and buses that it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. This is why California exempts RVs (and low-mileage vehicles) from their diesel emissions standards; the CARB standards are practical (and successful) measures meant to accomplish the specific goal of reducing smog and acid rain, and applying those standards to RVs would not achieve a measurable result.

The emissions-control devices in school buses do nothing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions (in fact they generally increase these emissions slightly because they lower fuel mileage) and climate change is a vastly worse environmental problem than smog. If you're concerned about global warming, you should not be driving your house all over the country, regardless of whether your house's engine was built before 2003 or after.

[john61ct]

Silly.

Done right, a first-world household living in any mobile home designed for sensibly efficient off-grid living

is overall consuming **so much way less** energy and resources in general

than people living a S&B lifestyle on the grid.

Sure if they are putting 20000 miles a year on the bus, they're being evil

but who the heck does that?

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Silly.

Done right, a first-world household living in any mobile home designed for sensibly efficient off-grid living

is overall consuming **so much way less** energy and resources in general

than people living a S&B lifestyle on the grid.

Sure if they are putting 20000 miles a year on the bus, they're being evil

but who the heck does that?

2020 not included I often drive 30k+ on my busses combined.. sorry if you dont like it.. im an ON-GRID kinda guy..



as for emissions busses alot depends on the luck of the draw.. I know a couple people that bought 2008 era busses which have been great.. no issues. and yeah they drive much nicer than my older units were stock.. (my red one is modified so it drives prertty nice).. more power, better MPG.. much better transmissions.. more likiliehood of finding niceities such as air seat, tinted windows and air conditioning.. (you can find those things on older busses too but as we go on pre emission busses are tougher to find)...


I know of another friend that is unlucky on a 2010 now saddled with a major repair to the EGR system on his IH Maxxforce DT...

[musigenesis]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Silly.

I assume this was meant for me (if you're going to insult someone, at least quote them). Nothing that I said is silly - see the person immediately after you who drives even more miles than the amount you described as "evil". Lots of people build skoolies with the express intent of driving them a huge amount.

[Bus'n it]

Heck, if there was a highway to Europe, I would drive there! My build is being done overkill. I believe there will not be any weight savings and my mileage will most likely reflect that. I expect to drive this thing everywhere ‘cause, well, that’s what this is all about right? Seeing “the world” which is really limited to North America and South America if one feels so inclined to go there.

[Mr4btTahoe]

These systems are a joke that do nothing but make people "feel" better. Fact is they produce more pollution and cause more damage to the environment than they prevent.


Think about the manufacturing facilities, the mines (precious metals for the DPF), the transportation of mined minerals (on freighters that don't have emissions regulations).. transportation to and from manufacturing facilities... all the plastic, paper, and cardboard being dumped now due to DEF containers, the decrease in fuel mileage and the decrease in overall longevity meaning more parts, engines, etc.. being replaced...



And on average, when they fail... its 5K+ to repair the system. We were quoted 4k in parts alone just to replace a failing DPF on an F450. I've seen multiple people quoted north of 10k to replace emissions systems when they start failing on larger trucks. The EGR cooler systems cost countless 6.0 powerstroke owners 10k+ in head gasket repairs. They are extremely costly to repair/replace when needed (every 150-200k miles if you're lucky).


I would avoid it. If you want to buy something that is emissions compliant, get yourself something relatively new with a warranty... not something that is coming close to the EOL for the emissions devices. There's a reason why there are so many newer buses with relatively low mileage being put out to pasture by the school systems. They aren't cost effective to maintain anymore.



My 2 cents... but it's your coin. Good luck!

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Mr4btTahoe

These systems are a joke that do nothing but make people "feel" better. Fact is they produce more pollution and cause more damage to the environment than they prevent.


Think about the manufacturing facilities, the mines (precious metals for the DPF), the transportation of mined minerals (on freighters that don't have emissions regulations).. transportation to and from manufacturing facilities... all the plastic, paper, and cardboard being dumped now due to DEF containers, the decrease in fuel mileage and the decrease in overall longevity meaning more parts, engines, etc.. being replaced...



And on average, when they fail... its 5K+ to repair the system. We were quoted 4k in parts alone just to replace a failing DPF on an F450. I've seen multiple people quoted north of 10k to replace emissions systems when they start failing on larger trucks. The EGR cooler systems cost countless 6.0 powerstroke owners 10k+ in head gasket repairs. They are extremely costly to repair/replace when needed (every 150-200k miles if you're lucky).


I would avoid it. If you want to buy something that is emissions compliant, get yourself something relatively new with a warranty... not something that is coming close to the EOL for the emissions devices. There's a reason why there are so many newer buses with relatively low mileage being put out to pasture by the school systems. They aren't cost effective to maintain anymore.



My 2 cents... but it's your coin. Good luck!

The cradle to grave studies that many want to keep suppressed and hidden (and do with political pressure controlling the funding).

Cradle to grave is a concept of measuring an items impact on the environment from the raw material phase (yes even the oil to make the plastic) to its grave and includes certain materials as ever-green to a percentage .. ie the steel that can be cycled several times or more before it is completely broken down..

Some of the results are eye opening.. ie a Jeep Wrangler had less environmental impact than a Prius ..

These things change of course over time as technology advances.. ie an electric car built nowadays has less impact than one 10 years ago because the battery life expectancy is double what it was.

One thing is for sure emission systems aren’t cheap to fix even if you buy the parts and put them on yourself. And you really should have a good scan tool if you are going to own a bus equipped such.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Bus'n it

Heck, if there was a highway to Europe, I would drive there! My build is being done overkill. I believe there will not be any weight savings and my mileage will most likely reflect that. I expect to drive this thing everywhere ‘cause, well, that’s what this is all about right? Seeing “the world” which is really limited to North America and South America if one feels so inclined to go there.

I collect , build, and own busses to drive them .. I don’t live in them or camp in them.. one is a simple mobile office..

That pretty much leaves driving them . They are fun I enjoy the drive in a bus. So yeah I put lots of miles on.

[Bus'n it]

I saw a UPS truck getting gas while I was fueling up the other day. Spoke to the driver asking him what engine was in it. I thought they were all diesel. He told me all their new step vans are gasoline with 4 and 6cyl gas engines. They no longer buy diesel delivery trucks. He did tell me that the company scraps all used trucks so they never make it to second hand market. I can only imagine that the cost savings if not making repairs on emission laden diesel delivery trucks may be the reason they went with gas trucks.

[BeNimble]

There are low mileage gasoline powered motorhomes for sale everywhere.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Bus'n it

I saw a UPS truck getting gas while I was fueling up the other day. Spoke to the driver asking him what engine was in it. I thought they were all diesel. He told me all their new step vans are gasoline with 4 and 6cyl gas engines. They no longer buy diesel delivery trucks. He did tell me that the company scraps all used trucks so they never make it to second hand market. I can only imagine that the cost savings if not making repairs on emission laden diesel delivery trucks may be the reason they went with gas trucks.

around here UPS has been buying gasoline trucks for at least 9 or 10 years. . many of them are freightliner chassis.. here is one article of a few.. they are freightliners with the GM 6.0 gas engine and allison 6 speed trans.. those trucks sound Mean-ass when they take off too!!!
https://www.ccjdigital.com/business/...r-walk-in-vans

[DeMac]

OP is from CA. The following info seems applicable as the CARB is a factor when considering an emissions controlled engine to be owned within the state.

According RV Travel, CA will begin mandatory RV emissions tests July 2023, in the linked article
by Russ & Tina De Maris

https://www.rvtravel.com/california-...sions-testing/

The following excerpts were copied from the aforementioned article:
Privately owned recreational vehicles fall under the law and the new rules. The rules come straight from the state’s Air Resources Board (CARB).

Heavy-duty vehicles, including 14,000-pound-plus motorhomes that run on anything other than gasoline will have to submit to mandatory inspections. You did note that little detail, right? Even if your motorhome runs on, say, “alternative fuel,” if it runs on anything other than gasoline you’re in for the testing.

What about non-residents? As the draft is currently written, non-residents aren’t cut any breaks. Your motorhome would require a test on entry to the state.

If you own a motorhome that meets the specifications of the law, you’ll also have to obtain an electronic account with the state, and register any rigs you own that meet the specs.

Once inspected, you’ll get a certificate for your motorhome, provided it passes inspection. You’ll have the privilege of paying for this certificate.

[cadillackid]

good enough reason for me to never visit that state nor spend any money in it.. ohio may be a big ole bucket of suck when it comes to weather but at least we can drive our diesels

[Bus'n it]

I am wondering when Arizona will follow seeing that our demographics are already being influenced by Californians and New Yorkers coming in by the droves. That's ok. My days are getting numbered here. Ohio to me is not a big ole' suck. I actually liked the outer Dayton area. I might consider getting some land and a big ole' shop. Kentucky and some parts of Tennessee are on the radar scope. My house went from 280k to over 700k in 6 years. I'll let the CA/NY crowd buy my house since they say our real estate is bargain priced. Of course, I'll hold out for 1.2 mil first. I want a big shop at my next place

[BeNimble]

Just to be clear here, California has required RV to be smogged just like cars, both gas and diesel, they just had an exception for big ones, and you have to ask yourself, why do big-ass RVs get a free pass when small ones don't?

[Bert06840]

It depends on how tough the requirements are. Smog tests can be easy to pass if your thing isn’t about to completely explode.

I lived in Europe for many years and I can tel you that NOTHING here compares to what it takes to get your car past German TÜV or Scandinavian Katsastus or the like. Even NY or CA rules are laughably easy to comply with from that perspective.

So I’m not too worried about that…

[cadillackid]

Ohio itself isn’t bad just the weather .. we used to have snowy winters and steamy summers no we just have cold wet grey summers and lots of damp grey days in all seasons.. oh and businesses here act like we are having a heat wave in summer or a fuel crisis in winter.. trying to dine out and not have to spend a decent amount of time siting on my hands to keep them warm is getting tougher…
Otherwise the state isn’t bad ,
Granted the riots set this city back quite a few years and the mayor is one of the defund police promoters so crime is through the roof .. luckily I’m in a burb that doesn’t accept that…

[john61ct]

Verging on loathsome politics there