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Old 08-29-2019, 06:48 AM   #21
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Cool thank you for your knowledge

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Old 08-29-2019, 07:03 AM   #22
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Iíve come across a 2006 international
Pb105 Vt 365. 300,000 miles 3,600 $
For me to many miles but what say all
I needs all the help I can get
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:05 AM   #23
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Year: 2004
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Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
How much drive time does a MaxxForce 4 need?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
the DT466 became the Maxxforce DT in 2008, the DT466E received EGR starting in 2004.



2004 was the first year that some real issues began to pop up.. while im still a fan of the DT platform as a whole. (yes even the MFDT).. its golden "modern(electromnic)" years are 95-2003.. the mechanicals started to phase out in 95. though some upo through 98 existed as P-punped mechanicals through 98..



the complexity of the electronics and the engines themselves increased in 2004 with different turbos and the EGR system..



in my opinion for the laymen out there stay pre-04.. for the mechanically and electronically inclined the 04-07 is still a good solid platform.. the 08+ is a pretty good proven platform when run on longer journies and maintained IMPECCABLY.. and driven often.. diesel fuel ages and with DPF filters, clean-burn is imperative.. letting a modern diesel sit like many skoolies like to do (park for 6 months then drive across the country and park again) is bad bad for a DPF equipped engine.. you'll never warm a DPF equipped engine up enough to clear the DPF properly unless you actually drive it long enough to get it nice N hot..





now onto the OP... whats wrong with the current bus that makes it unrepairable?







If I had a 2008 with the MaxxForce 4: based on what you said about needing to be driven often, what is your minimum recommendation on the frequency it would need to be driven? How many hours of driving does it take to get it "hot" (as you said)? I'm wondering if our anticipated driving amount would meet or exceed what you consider to be the minimum amount of time you think it would need to stay in good shape.
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Those are a real nightmare.
I had a few very good talks with our local navistar service manager. He said he wouldn't even own a post-2003.
I got so frickin' lucky here I can't believe it. I bought my bus before knowing anything about what years to look for, and just happened to end up with a 2003. The moral of the story is: don't rely on the /r/Skoolies subreddit for anything important - that place is just for pretty skoolie pics (with the original ceilings) and annoying videos.

FWIW the first bus I almost bought was a very rusty $7500 2008 Thomas C2 with a missing emergency exit door and a Mercedes-Benz engine (not to mention hydraulic brakes). I still wake up in a cold sweat about that one sometimes.
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Rusty 87 build thread
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:14 AM   #25
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Better to be lucky then good
They say
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:49 AM   #26
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by cofrari View Post
If I had a 2008 with the MaxxForce 4: based on what you said about needing to be driven often, what is your minimum recommendation on the frequency it would need to be driven? How many hours of driving does it take to get it "hot" (as you said)? I'm wondering if our anticipated driving amount would meet or exceed what you consider to be the minimum amount of time you think it would need to stay in good shape.

Maxxforce 7 im assuming..



theres lotds of reads online about keeping DPFs clean.. but generally driving them on the highway allows them to warm up and run through ReGen properly..



treat or use up your diesel fuel to keep it fresh.. older the fuel the dirtier it burns.. since DPF's essentially filter out the "soot".. clean burn and high quality fuel is imperative.. I run diesel-kleen or archoil additive in my diesels all the time.. (and they arent DPF).. there are all kinds of after-treatments you can use to treat your fuel.. moisture is the biggest killer.. ive long used Sta-Bil in my gasoline engines over winter (mowers, trimmers, etc).. in my busses I drive all my fuel out regularly so I havent storage-treated my diesel.. even in winter I start and drive the busses on nice days..





clean oil.. clean moisture-free oil is imperative for proper engine lube.. while the MF7 doesnt have the HEUI system, the oil still lubes the engine.. running the engine long enough gets the oil temp up to evaporate moisture out of it...



the local rush truck center gets a lot of the columbus city schools busses in with emission failure codes in the computers.. a decent percentage of them im told, they clear the computers.. and then drive the busses around the outerbelt at 65. which is around 60 miles.. this allows any necessary regen cycles to take place... sometimes the DPFs have to be "baked" as its sometimes called which is pricey as they need removed from the bus / truck..
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Old 08-29-2019, 07:59 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short bus dweller View Post
Iíve come across a 2006 international
Pb105 Vt 365. 300,000 miles 3,600 $
For me to many miles but what say all
I needs all the help I can get
Nah, run away from that. Too many miles too much money and the 6.0 isn't really much "better" than a maxxforce.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:02 AM   #28
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Cool
You da person
I’ll find me a good one no rush
Mine still runs but it’s days are getting shorter
So I’m working it
Have 4 gees to work with
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:09 AM   #29
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Ok found a 2003 blue bird tc 2000
With a 5.9 6l 124,000 miles
This is also a style I like
Who makes the 5.9 6l
Trans Alison AT 545
It’s an 8 window driver side
Not to big
On govdeals it’s at 2700$ right now
What is a good price do the kind people say for this bus
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:42 AM   #30
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Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 149
Year: 2004
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
MaxxForce decision is killing me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
Maxxforce 7 im assuming..



theres lotds of reads online about keeping DPFs clean.. but generally driving them on the highway allows them to warm up and run through ReGen properly..



treat or use up your diesel fuel to keep it fresh.. older the fuel the dirtier it burns.. since DPF's essentially filter out the "soot".. clean burn and high quality fuel is imperative.. I run diesel-kleen or archoil additive in my diesels all the time.. (and they arent DPF).. there are all kinds of after-treatments you can use to treat your fuel.. moisture is the biggest killer.. ive long used Sta-Bil in my gasoline engines over winter (mowers, trimmers, etc).. in my busses I drive all my fuel out regularly so I havent storage-treated my diesel.. even in winter I start and drive the busses on nice days..





clean oil.. clean moisture-free oil is imperative for proper engine lube.. while the MF7 doesnt have the HEUI system, the oil still lubes the engine.. running the engine long enough gets the oil temp up to evaporate moisture out of it...



the local rush truck center gets a lot of the columbus city schools busses in with emission failure codes in the computers.. a decent percentage of them im told, they clear the computers.. and then drive the busses around the outerbelt at 65. which is around 60 miles.. this allows any necessary regen cycles to take place... sometimes the DPFs have to be "baked" as its sometimes called which is pricey as they need removed from the bus / truck..





Thanks for your response. I appreciate the actual informative information! It is actually a MaxxForce 4 (not 7). The bus is in great body shape, and fairly new tires (only a year old). Maintenance was kept up with. And only $4,000, which seems crazy cheap (they just want to get rid of any bus over 10-years old). I just don't know how scared I need to be of the engine. Sinking $3,000 into repairs won't kill me as I feel like I'm getting a good deal on the bus. Sinking $15,000 into repairs on the other hand...



CadillacKid: knowing what you know, what would you do?


(We do have a mechanic lined up who is willing to do a pre-purchase review of the bus.)





Running the bus 60 miles a week isn't an issue if it keeps it reliable. We will probably use it naturally a few hundred miles a month. I can suck up the expense of running it once or twice a week if that is sufficient to keep it reliable and running well.
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Old 08-29-2019, 08:47 AM   #31
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I’m staying away from any max that’s me as I have an engine I can’t aftord to fix as it is
I need bulletproof
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:25 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Short bus dweller View Post
Ok found a 2003 blue bird tc 2000
With a 5.9 6l 124,000 miles
This is also a style I like
Who makes the 5.9 6l
Trans Alison AT 545
It’s an 8 window driver side
Not to big
On govdeals it’s at 2700$ right now
What is a good price do the kind people say for this bus
The 545 isn't great but as long as you aren't climbing mountains its ok in a small bus. If it ever breaks you can upgrade to a 643.
I'd say if you like it and its not a rust bucket $3000 or so isn't horrible.
If you're patient buses similar to mine pop up and don't go for too much. Mine has air ride, low miles, high headroom, and its even lifted. I only paid $1625 out the door for mine. It popped up on Public Surplus. I only had bid for fun but actually won! I didn't "need" another bus but I'm glad I splurged. Nicest bus I've owned.
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:39 AM   #33
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Na no rush
But also don’t to not pull the trigger
When one comes along you know
Na no Mountains In my future
Just putting around Staten Island at mostly 25-30 miles per
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Old 08-29-2019, 09:44 AM   #34
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In that case a 545 would be just fine for you.
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Old 08-29-2019, 10:42 AM   #35
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Join Date: May 2009
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
im not familiar with what a MaxxForce 4 is.. do you have the VIN? we can look up what engine is in it..
the international Diesel engines that went into the CE series school busses(IC CE was Amtran who was Ward)

T-444E(94-04) (aka ford 7.3) - great engines.. last a long time.. not very powerful for heavy busses..


DT-466E -(95-07) Super Good solid engines up until 2004/2005 then they got EGR... then some issues developed with timing covers, EGR failures, biut still real solid if taken well care of and coolant / oil maint is impeccable


VT365 (aka ford 6.0) - 04/05-07 - good engine *IF* you put $$money$$ and effort into "bulletproofing" it and are impeccable with your maintenance and care.


Maxxforce DT (aka new brand DT466E) - 08-15/16 - if you have to pick a Maxxforce this one is the lesser of 2 evils.. actually pretty solid but it had issues with emissions gear.. the compound turbos.. and such.. things could be done to it to help it out.. it was a similar block to the 466E but all new head, and all new injection system (common rail instead of HEUI)


MaxxForce 7 (aka ford 6.4) - it could be a DECENT engine **IF** you put , lots of $$$$$ and effort into sort of "bulletproofing" it... some have run them good long while.. others broke em all.. granted the 08 and 9's were the worst.. startomg in 10 the block and heads got an update.. international used them much longer than ford did who jumped ship after '10...



never heard of a Maxxforce 4..



I put the Ford nomenclature beside the V8's because international made those engines for ford.. they werent exactly the same but very similar and shared many many parts.. its easier to google search reliability and repairs on the ford versions vs the international versions.. International versions were generally DeTuned from the fords and tended to be a little more reliable because of this.. however the same issues with how they are treated and the type of driving.. / emissions failures eminated from the fords and the international versions..


the aftermarket attempted to respond to the failures when international and ford seemed not to care.. (look up Lawsuits on ford 6.0,6.4 and international maxxforce anything.. Maxxforce 11,13,15 were semi truck engines with many failures too..


even though you cvan buy parts to make a VT365 or a Maxxforce 7 into a pretty good engine.. you need to first know that you are starting out with one that works correctly... and it involves a LOT of labor.. replacing EGR cooler and oil cooler on a 6.0 is not a job for someone who has only ever played with fischer-price wrenches.. for others its a weekend Job you do while listening to your favorite ball club beat its rival...



as for the AT545... great in town and on short trips.. put a big trans cooler on it and drive it on smaller mountain ranges like the apps, smokies, etc..



2 of my busses are highway cruisers where i may run 1000s of miles in a couple weeks time.. on both of those I blew up the AT545s and upgraded.. for what you want to do, put on a cooler and enjoy your bus.. and being older than 04. enjoy no emissions..
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Old 08-29-2019, 11:53 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Nah, run away from that. Too many miles too much money and the 6.0 isn't really much "better" than a maxxforce.
my son is a mechanic with his own 3 lift shop - he classes 'bullet proofing' as a big job - he must do a good job because the customers he's done it for rave about how good their trucks are after the bullet proofing was done - 'BIG" = 'expensive'
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:14 PM   #37
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Join Date: May 2009
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Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
theres ford bulletproofing and theres international bullet-proofing of a 6.0.. in general the VT365 international doesnt make enough power or boost to need ARP head studs.. so the heads stay on... Ford bulletproofing involves removing the heads and putting expensive head studs in... the fords put out more power and nearly everyone runs tuners to make more power on their ford trucks.. bulletproofing allows the 6.0 to put out more power reliably and stay cool doing it...


on the VT365 its still a pretty good size job to replace the Oil cooler and either EGR cooler upgrade or EGR delete...
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Old 08-29-2019, 12:14 PM   #38
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 149
Year: 2004
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
MaxxForce 4 is really MaxxForce DT466E

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
im not familiar with what a MaxxForce 4 is.. do you have the VIN? we can look up what engine is in it..
the international Diesel engines that went into the CE series school busses(IC CE was Amtran who was Ward)

T-444E(94-04) (aka ford 7.3) - great engines.. last a long time.. not very powerful for heavy busses..


DT-466E -(95-07) Super Good solid engines up until 2004/2005 then they got EGR... then some issues developed with timing covers, EGR failures, biut still real solid if taken well care of and coolant / oil maint is impeccable


VT365 (aka ford 6.0) - 04/05-07 - good engine *IF* you put $$money$$ and effort into "bulletproofing" it and are impeccable with your maintenance and care.


Maxxforce DT (aka new brand DT466E) - 08-15/16 - if you have to pick a Maxxforce this one is the lesser of 2 evils.. actually pretty solid but it had issues with emissions gear.. the compound turbos.. and such.. things could be done to it to help it out.. it was a similar block to the 466E but all new head, and all new injection system (common rail instead of HEUI)


MaxxForce 7 (aka ford 6.4) - it could be a DECENT engine **IF** you put , lots of $$$$$ and effort into sort of "bulletproofing" it... some have run them good long while.. others broke em all.. granted the 08 and 9's were the worst.. startomg in 10 the block and heads got an update.. international used them much longer than ford did who jumped ship after '10...



never heard of a Maxxforce 4..



I put the Ford nomenclature beside the V8's because international made those engines for ford.. they werent exactly the same but very similar and shared many many parts.. its easier to google search reliability and repairs on the ford versions vs the international versions.. International versions were generally DeTuned from the fords and tended to be a little more reliable because of this.. however the same issues with how they are treated and the type of driving.. / emissions failures eminated from the fords and the international versions..


the aftermarket attempted to respond to the failures when international and ford seemed not to care.. (look up Lawsuits on ford 6.0,6.4 and international maxxforce anything.. Maxxforce 11,13,15 were semi truck engines with many failures too..


even though you cvan buy parts to make a VT365 or a Maxxforce 7 into a pretty good engine.. you need to first know that you are starting out with one that works correctly... and it involves a LOT of labor.. replacing EGR cooler and oil cooler on a 6.0 is not a job for someone who has only ever played with fischer-price wrenches.. for others its a weekend Job you do while listening to your favorite ball club beat its rival...



as for the AT545... great in town and on short trips.. put a big trans cooler on it and drive it on smaller mountain ranges like the apps, smokies, etc..



2 of my busses are highway cruisers where i may run 1000s of miles in a couple weeks time.. on both of those I blew up the AT545s and upgraded.. for what you want to do, put on a cooler and enjoy your bus.. and being older than 04. enjoy no emissions..



I was going off of what the dealer was saying by calling it a "MaxxForce 4". I just talked to them and apparently that's how they refer to the MaxxForce DT466 to quickly differentiate it from the older 466. I apologize for causing confusion with that.



CadillacKid: going back to your full explanation, I feel better about it being a MaxxForce DT466 vs the MaxxForce 7. Although I'm wondering if I should be holding out for a better 2005 to come available? I was blown away by the visual condition of the 2008 (body rust & tires), and it only being $4000.



Thanks so much for all your advice and detailed responses!
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Old 08-29-2019, 01:12 PM   #39
Bus Geek
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 19,128
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
if it were me personally.. I would buy it but im also not afraid to tear down an engine if I blow it up...



if I were someone who has small amount of engine knowledge or small amount of money then I would wait to find an 04 or older..
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:51 PM   #40
Skoolie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 149
Year: 2004
Coachwork: International
Chassis: CE200
Engine: T444e
VT365 with ~100,000 miles

Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
if it were me personally.. I would buy it but im also not afraid to tear down an engine if I blow it up...



if I were someone who has small amount of engine knowledge or small amount of money then I would wait to find an 04 or older..





I saw what you wrote in a previous post about the VT365 being a good engine if I stay perfect with maintenance. What life span do you see in a VT365 with 100k on it (200? What should have gone wrong already with this bus that they probably have already replaced or repaired? (the same pace has an equal bus with the VT365 in it which is why I'm asking).


I'm so scared to pass on a good bus out of fear of what might go wrong. But I also don't want to be kicking myself for buying a nightmare.


Thanks again for all your detailed responses!
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