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Old 01-14-2019, 10:11 PM   #1
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inframe rebuild at 130k worries/concerns 03 dt466 ic3000

he yall

heres the low down 2003 dt466 allison 2000. international 3000 series. 4.10 gear ratio no gov, little bit of rust but slim pickings up here in NY. its what ive been looking for and a good price

what im wondering is at 120k it had an inframe rebuild, district owned and maintained, i dont have much info on it but its at 150k and supposedly running strong. What should i look out for when i check this out? what would cause this in the first place? is it good for another few hundred thousand

drop your thoughts below, have a limited window to pull the trigger, less than a week
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:26 PM   #2
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found the auction listing from where the guy who has it got it from[he just flips] rebuild was 6 years ago? weird? proven? 20-30k over the course of 6 years?
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Old 01-14-2019, 10:32 PM   #3
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See if they have documentation of the rebuild to find out what was done by who. It likely got a rebuild from having been overheated and had a liner seal fail. An engine oil sample would tell you alot about the currant condition of the engine. An oil sample will tell you if there is coolant or diesel in the oil as well as if there are usually high amounts of wear metals from the bearings. Visually, milky color to the oil or rust on the dipstick or or inside of oil fill indicate coolant or water in the oil. Excessive blow by is also something to look for. If there is alot of smoke with some pressure behind it coming out of the crank case vent tube it means the piston rings are worn.

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Old 01-15-2019, 06:05 AM   #4
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he yall

heres the low down 2003 dt466 allison 2000. international 3000 series. 4.10 gear ratio no gov, little bit of rust but slim pickings up here in NY. its what ive been looking for and a good price

what im wondering is at 120k it had an inframe rebuild, district owned and maintained, i dont have much info on it but its at 150k and supposedly running strong. What should i look out for when i check this out? what would cause this in the first place? is it good for another few hundred thousand

drop your thoughts below, have a limited window to pull the trigger, less than a week
I'll bet its was the coolant. In 03 and 04 internationals have problems keeping cyllinder liners etc from disintegrating.
I looked at a ny bus once. was a total rust bucket though.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:09 AM   #5
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See if they have documentation of the rebuild to find out what was done by who. It likely got a rebuild from having been overheated and had a liner seal fail. An engine oil sample would tell you alot about the currant condition of the engine. An oil sample will tell you if there is coolant or diesel in the oil as well as if there are usually high amounts of wear metals from the bearings. Visually, milky color to the oil or rust on the dipstick or or inside of oil fill indicate coolant or water in the oil. Excessive blow by is also something to look for. If there is alot of smoke with some pressure behind it coming out of the crank case vent tube it means the piston rings are worn.

Ted
Another possibility for a rebuild is if the coolant doesn't have the additive. Pitting on the sleeve causes the sleeve seals to fail prematurely from cavitation. This would be a resleeve and usually not a full rebuild... So the bottom end would be checked and if in spec, the mains would not be changed.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:11 AM   #6
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Another possibility for a rebuild is if the coolant doesn't have the additive. Pitting on the sleeve causes the sleeve seals to fail prematurely from cavitation. This would be a resleeve and usually not a full rebuild... So the bottom end would be checked and if in spec, the mains would not be changed.
In 03 and 04, IC's seem to have widespread quality control problems. The coolant can eat through hard parts too. The actual metals.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:26 AM   #7
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In 03 and 04, IC's seem to have widespread quality control problems. The coolant can eat through hard parts too. The actual metals.



** THIS ** coolants were often not compatible across brands of engines .. ie running GMC dexcool coolant in a navistar was certain death.. Cummins blue not much better... poorly maintained green coolant, same thing..



for the longest time schools were used to buiying 55 gallon drums of coolant, installing additives, SCA filters and all was good.. around 99 or so engines started coming out with different coolant requirements.. but no one ever thought about it... you just poured in whatever you had, tested with strips and went on..



these newer engines of the time didnt like it one bit.. theres articale after article about cylinder cavitation, liner failures, aluminum parts getting damaged, etc... not to mention as emisions controls became more prevalent, the coolant had to do more.. more parts in contact with the coolant.. ie EGR coolers, aluminum oil coolers and the like..



if you have the time and ability to sned off an oil sample, I would do it as suggested, assuming they havent just changed the oil.. for oil samples to work well, the oil needs to be run for awhile...

-Christopher
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:34 AM   #8
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** THIS ** coolants were often not compatible across brands of engines .. ie running GMC dexcool coolant in a navistar was certain death.. Cummins blue not much better... poorly maintained green coolant, same thing..



for the longest time schools were used to buiying 55 gallon drums of coolant, installing additives, SCA filters and all was good.. around 99 or so engines started coming out with different coolant requirements.. but no one ever thought about it... you just poured in whatever you had, tested with strips and went on..



these newer engines of the time didnt like it one bit.. theres articale after article about cylinder cavitation, liner failures, aluminum parts getting damaged, etc... not to mention as emisions controls became more prevalent, the coolant had to do more.. more parts in contact with the coolant.. ie EGR coolers, aluminum oil coolers and the like..



if you have the time and ability to sned off an oil sample, I would do it as suggested, assuming they havent just changed the oil.. for oil samples to work well, the oil needs to be run for awhile...

-Christopher
According to all the literature the blue stuff is supposed to be compatible.
International/Navistar really did their best to make it seem like it was everyone else's fault. I think the low quality of manufacturing is a big part of it. Guys who kept buses alive for decades had 03 and 04 buses with engines disintegrating due to the cooling systems.
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:49 AM   #9
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the fact manufacturers issue TSB's on certain parts talks of poor design or manufacturing oftentimes.. ie Navistar re-design the timing cover under the guise of an oil issue yet ive never heard anyone talk of said oil issue.. only of the water leak.. and there are plenty that never get the water leak... but the ones that reach the shops piss people off because navistar knew they had a defect but wouldnt fix them free of charge..
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Old 01-15-2019, 06:51 AM   #10
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I quit supporting navistar when I saw that tsb that has block sealant tablets as the "fix".
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Old 01-15-2019, 07:01 AM   #11
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block sealant was used for years... I had several cadillacs that used it.. was a factory item believe it or not.. its not as bad as you think it is...



reality is all manufacturers have had their fall-on-their-face moments.. with the exception maybe of cummins? they have a pretty good track record.. although 53 blocks and dowel pin failures could be theirs?



detroit? never really made it into the school bus realm with their tried and true engines..



more power at cheaper prices == less quality.. and they have all fallen victim to that.. not to mention government intervention..
-Christopher
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:17 AM   #12
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block sealant was used for years... I had several cadillacs that used it.. was a factory item believe it or not.. its not as bad as you think it is...



reality is all manufacturers have had their fall-on-their-face moments.. with the exception maybe of cummins? they have a pretty good track record.. although 53 blocks and dowel pin failures could be theirs?



detroit? never really made it into the school bus realm with their tried and true engines..



more power at cheaper prices == less quality.. and they have all fallen victim to that.. not to mention government intervention..
-Christopher
Except the unicorn Crowns... Used Detroit's
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:49 AM   #13
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so this is kinda scaring the crap outta me, i thought 03 was in the pre screw up relm. when did the egr come in? i know my 90's gasser had one and it was the first thing i got rid of. i want to be pre emissions as possible while staying relatively new. if she was re sleeved and they used the right coolant would it be solid. the oil test... if older oil would show if the wrong coolant was used correct?
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:53 AM   #14
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so this is kinda scaring the crap outta me, i thought 03 was in the pre screw up relm. when did the egr come in? i know my 90's gasser had one and it was the first thing i got rid of. i want to be pre emissions as possible while staying relatively new. if she was re sleeved and they used the right coolant would it be solid. the oil test... if older oil would show if the wrong coolant was used correct?
Egr was introduced in 04. Ive got an 04 bus with an 03 engine.
If its had an in-frame its likely good to go. But make sure the coolant is 100% perfect at all times.
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:01 AM   #15
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I would hope that if the inframe was the result of the wrong coolant they would make sure to use the right coolant after the inframe. Service records from the district would be very helpful in this case or taking to the bus barn where it came from.

Ted

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Old 01-15-2019, 10:43 AM   #16
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All engines have problems, which is why I'm not really a fan of any of them.

Not only did cummins have the 53 block issues(that was a pickup only issue iirc), and the killer dowel pin. They also had the lift pump/vp44 fiasco.

Anybody that tells you they prefer one make while the rest are junk does so because they don't have a large enough sample size. They all have problems.

As far as sealing tablets go, gm was the one that had it widespread standard operating procedure, although I think every manufacturer has used them in certain situations. It is what it is.

Detroit diesel? What about the 8.2, and 6.2/6.5? I wouldn't call any of them a golden child. As far as the 2 strokes are concerned, the only time they don't leak oil is when you've run them out of it.

As far as coolants go, I put in what was factory fill. I'm not a fan of upgrading old engines to modern coolants because it's costly, unnecessary, and it's an unknown how it will react.

I can't count how many engines have come in overheating with a sludged up mess for a cooling system. And good luck cleaning it out easily. Caustic flushes and strong chemicals are the only things that work and using them almost always eats away liner and water pump seals. No thanks on modern coolants in old engines.
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Old 01-15-2019, 11:28 AM   #17
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thus why my DEV bus has ole green with additive and a bottle of strips in the glovebox...



the red bus was past the cutoff by navistar to use ELC so it has it.. the manufacturers usually recommend what to pour in



they cant recommend what NOT to pour in, because many of these coolants came out after said engine...
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Old 01-15-2019, 12:23 PM   #18
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what color coolant am i looking for, what color should be in it?. and where do yall recommend to go for an oil sample test?

side note here but how many miles is an allison usually good for? coming of 4x4 trucks we rebuild every 200k on an auto...
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Old 01-15-2019, 01:38 PM   #19
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ultimately if your bus is built by a manufacturer still in business you can call a dealer to get the recommended coolant type for it...



transmissions sometimes last 400k, other times they die at 80k.. alot has to do with howe the transmission was treated.. was it over-heated.. did the vehivle get driven through deep water and suck moisture into the trans, was the fluid and filter changed on schedule, what kind of service did the transmission get used for..



a perfectly good transmission can be destroyed in minutes if its line pressure goes low due to clogged filter, or low fluid and a clutch starts slipping.. or too much horsepower from a pumped up engine applied to a trans.. the duramaxx and ford powerstroke guys wasted a lot of transmissions from turning up the engine power..



a slipping trans causes the clutches to over-heat and either glaze, or get hot enough to scorch the fluid and make the fluid abrasive instead of liubricating.. ..


your trans fluid and general operation cam tell you alot.. if a transmission shifts good, doesnt slip, doesnrt lag, and the fluid is the nice clear red color.. it most likely has life left in it..

(im not talking about allisons with engine oil in them like the 4000s and the 700s)..


200k is probably an average for a trans to show signs of wear.. but ive known plenty of allisons to go far longer..



-Christopher
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Old 03-07-2019, 11:17 PM   #20
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thus why my DEV bus has ole green with additive and a bottle of strips in the glovebox...



the red bus was past the cutoff by navistar to use ELC so it has it.. the manufacturers usually recommend what to pour in



they cant recommend what NOT to pour in, because many of these coolants came out after said engine...





Please excuse my ignorance about diesels, but, what "bottle of strips" and what/how do you use them for?
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