Is there a tipping point (age vs emissions)?

[WhatBus]

While my question seems simple to me, I feel like the answer will either be complex or vary by person.

In short is there a point in time when a new bus trumps a pre emissions bus?I

It seems that the general opinion here is to avoid emissions control busses. Some seem to say pre 06 others 03. These busses are not getting any younger and at at some point it will be rarer and rarer to get them anywhere but third hand or later.

Meanwhile I am seeing a pulse of 09 to 11 busses hit the market, even with one 14 with 45k appearing in MA (that is the same age as my daily driver with less miles and from a less snowy place)

So will it always be old busses forever are the recomendation? Or is there a point (regardless of miles) that the age of the bus makes dealing emissions preferable?

Also these emissions control where new in 07, did they ever figure out how to make them reliable?

P.S. I'm sorry if this question has been answered, my searches seemed to turn up threads only saying to avoid the newer busses.

[Sehnsucht]

Engine technology evolves and brings a lot of benefits but even discounting the diesel emissions complexity these benefits come with a trade-off in longevity and continued maintenance coats. Consider automobile technology in the last 10-20 years versus pre-2000 versus golden age muscle cars. A current generation Challenger boasts 700+ HP but every time something goes wrong its $$$ to fix. Diesel emissions are basically the same way so if the benefits outweigh the ownership costs of routine maintenance then that's a personal decision.

[o1marc]

I see we are very near that dilemma. The 20 year old buses, the most desirable ones are getting fewer each year. I notice the old pre 04, which was when the EPA instituted the new regulations, buses went 15-20 years before retiring. Makes you wonder why the newer ones are being let go after 8-10 years and sell for less than the pre 04 stuff. I think they foresee the potential issues and dump them before they need the expensive repairs. I think only a year or 2 more and post 04 buses are all that will be available and we'll just have to deal with the issues.

[Mekanic]

Originally Posted by WhatBus

While my question seems simple to me, I feel like the answer will either be complex or vary by person.

In short is there a point in time when a new bus trumps a pre emissions bus?I

It seems that the general opinion here is to avoid emissions control busses. Some seem to say pre 06 others 03. These busses are not getting any younger and at at some point it will be rarer and rarer to get them anywhere but third hand or later.

Meanwhile I am seeing a pulse of 09 to 11 busses hit the market, even with one 14 with 45k appearing in MA (that is the same age as my daily driver with less miles and from a less snowy place)

So will it always be old busses forever are the recomendation? Or is there a point (regardless of miles) that the age of the bus makes dealing emissions preferable?

........

Yes i can safely say if you want something to be very reliable. just look a bit to the past.
I built my RV from a 94 F700 and a U-Haul box. it has a 5.9L 12V and a 6 speed Manual trans. NO COMPUTER.

Now do NOT take that comment the wrong way. No computer is better than a good simple one. However What the OEMS have done after about 07 is NOTHING i want a part of.

I drive a school bus for my main job. I drive a 2004?? I think it is. its a Freightliner FS65. Has a Cat 3126 and a AT. Quite a reliable bus.
Has 160K miles, Hour meter has over 11K hours!! Calculate that at 55MPH and that is over 550K Miles!!. I'd be scared if i was the owner I'm told the trans module is $4000. THisis what was paid for one of the other same ear buses.
The 07 up freightliners have all this and More....

Worst bus would have to a be a Early C2 freightliner with the Mercedes engine.

[magnakansas]

I think for me rather than age, I was looking for simple. MOST cases, a simple machine will work longer, with fewer repairs or maintenance needed than opposed to a machine with more parts.

My engine is a an inline 6 cylinder. As engines go, this is a "smooth" running engine. Primary and secondary order vibrations are balanced.

My engine has 2 valves per cylinder, that means fewer parts... many newer engine have 4 valve per cylinder. Twice as many parts to wear or break.

Mine has mechanical injection. There is no electricity needed. Might be a trade off here in terms of the number of parts. But no angry pixies in this set up. I can run with out an alternator or batteries.

Down side... the stuff coming out of the tail pipe is not as clean as a diesel made in 2009. It is possible that a newer engine does have higher fuel efficiency. I think I will do pretty well in this regard.

Fault tolerant -- The idea with using parts and bits from the mid 1990's is they work well, the parts have been around since mid 1980's and the problems have had time to get figured out and repaired. The reason electric fuel injection and 4 valve heads and stuff is having to meet emissions standards. I can start my engine by pushing or pulling from another machine, coasting down hill, in addition to pushing the button if the starter system is working.

I picked a 1995 cummmins 5.9 a NV5600 six speed manual transmission .. the entire mindset is to be able to keep running while bits are not working as good as they can. Something like one wire rubbing through the insulation can take down a newer engine/transmission set up.

I dont get an automatic transmission. I dont get engine that runs the same at sea level and 12,000 feet altitude. I dont get automatic adjustments on the engine and fuel system.

I do get to adjust valves, I am likely to have a few more oil leaks- this engine has more covers and gaskets on the engine. I do have to press a clutch pedal every time I stop. I have to shift gears. I have to, maybe, replace a clutch... maybe not if it lasts 200,000 miles-20 years.

Now for the kicker.... My other bus is a 1958 with a gasoline engine... the whole thing is a rolling vintage truck..... the brakes are the big headache. Definitely not a fault tolerant rig.... I have much more work to stay on top of the machine to keep it reliable.

I have worked on cars. trucks, motorcycles, and boats my entire life. I am comfortable and know enough to keep stuff running. This gives me freemdom from worry about the machine.

I encourage you to telephone if like and talk about new vs older vs old pros and cons of each 785 207 7600

william

[WhatBus]

Thanks all.

It seems the general thought is basically always to get pre-emissions if available. Which it still is for now.

[WIbluebird]

I believe in the coming years that the 6.7 Cummins will be the most desirable of the emission-era buses. They had DPF up until 2012, then DEF for the 2013 model year (which is when they get crazy expensive to fix). 8.3 Cummins also had similiar emissions controls in this era. The DPF ones are fairly easy to delete assuming someone comes up with a software fix. Truckers already delete these systems all the time.



International buses get really bad after about 2008 when Maxxforce showed up. VT365 had its issues but they're nothing compared to the complete dumpster fire that was the Maxxforce engines. There's a reason why you can only order Cummins diesels in the IC buses today.



I guess one upside of the emission buses is the 99% probability of getting a good transmission (AT545 was long gone by the time emissions rolled around). Pretty much the only choices will be Allison 2000 series or 3060 both of which are way better than any AT545.

[BeNimble]

At the prices these buses are going for these days, swapping out the engine with another one is entirely possible, just not registered in California, but that isn't an issue for most.

[WhatBus]

Originally Posted by BeNimble

At the prices these buses are going for these days, swapping out the engine with another one is entirely possible, just not registered in California, but that isn't an issue for most.

I do not know who CA is for registering a skoolie as a motor home, but from the articles I have read they seem to imply there is and exemption for a personal motor home. The following is a cut and paste from an article and not from a CARB document (so salt applies) but it does give a citation to look for.

Section 2025(c) are the list of “EXEMPTIONS” to the regulation and lines (10) ... read[s] as follows:


(10) Motor homes for non-commercial Private use;

So emissions might not be a problem ... the engine change on the other hand ... even federal EPA was starting to eye that before the current administration.

[Bus'n it]

When I was bus shopping there was a 2012 IC with a Maxxforce engine for 12k with 42k miles. I almost jumped on it since it looked absolutely brand new. Of course I did my research and avoided that "raging dumpster fire"!

[Native]

I am sure that when the "cream of the crop" post-emmisions bus comes to retirement and is available at auction, the members on this site will be all over it. At present, I have heard no comments as to what the "cream of the crop" driveline might be, but at some point one will emerge.

[TJones]

I think the cummins 6.7 is going to be the better emissions control engine as many bus and medium duty truck manufacturers are using this engine. Parts will be available as well as egr, dpf and def delete hardware kits thanks to Dodge Rams. The software side of deletes may be a challenge as cummins software may not be as easily tuned as dodge.

Ted

[cadillackid]

yeah cummins has done alright with the 6.7.. they have been around long enough now to be proven.. enough so that cummins even sells a 6.7 swap kit for those that ruin their navistar MaxxForce 7 engines in newer busses. and want to stop replacing engines...



as with any emission system it requires maintenance.. im guessing that purchasing busses from states with tougher emission requirements at yearly inspection will result in better maintained systems.. some states dont test emissions so as long as the warning lights are off the bus passes.. those states would be more likely to encounter emission issues by the second owner (in my opinion)..

[JackE]

Seems to me like one could fall back on the intended use platform. If you do buy a post emissions bus and have to put a few extra thousand into those repairs, wouldn't it make sense that the repairs are made to last a great number of miles? If I'm only driving 10K a year, wouldn't it make sense to expect 10+ years without problems? Just like the older busses that have 500K on them and need to be rebuilt, once rebuilt they are good for another 500K, which would take me 50 years to add up. Same as the tire issue. If I put a new set of tires on, I'm much more likely to time out on age than I am miles. Or are the emissions controlled busses only making it 75-100K before needing expensive repairs?

[cadillackid]

Depends on type of use.. electronics die more of age than use.. DPF systems fail more from short trips or storage-LOR “I’m gonn start it for a few every month” .. something like rebuilding a trans or engine or injectors and the like most definitely is more usage based