Jacking Up The Bus For Tire Change

[elkoskoolie]

I have yet to do this; however, I read on busnut.com that one bus owner uses a second jack on the lug wrench handle to break the nuts loose. Safer than jumping on a breaker bar I guess. Thought I'd pass it along.

[the_experience03]

Originally Posted by mightybus

What is the best way to go about this? How tight should I torque the lug nuts? 22.5's. How can I break the bead on non split rims. Thanks. What is a good price to pay for a new tire? Thanks.

A bottlejack and cribbing is a slow, but safe way to do this. Torque spec on the nuts is Ingersoll tight. Seriously. As tight as a good 1/2 drive impact (like an IR 2135 or Aircat 1000TC, 1000TH, or 1100K) would be about right. Of course I'm not sure that those guns are going to be able to break them loose. A pipe, a 3/4 drive or larger breaker bar, and some big guns are probably the best way to get them loose. I have yet to try my Aircat at getting the nuts loose using the air onboard.

As for breaking the beads...driving over them with a vehicle works, but honestly, your best bet is just to bring the tires in some place to get them mounted. I know it will cost some money, but it's for good reason. They will have the equipment and patience to deal with it. Expect to pay $250 or more for a new radial tire for your 22.5's.

[elkoskoolie]

I did a search on my other fav bus site, busnut.com yesterday, just to remind myself what I'd read. Ingersall tight is NOT correct. This can stretch your studs. I'm not an expert, and can only repeat what I've read. Seems between 450 and 500 ft. lbs. is correct for bus lug nuts. I can't imagine that it's different for skoolies. I also did a quick search on torgue, again to verify. Distance x force = torque. So If I weigh 250 lbs, and put all my weight at the 2' point on a cheater bar, I apply 500 ft lbs to the nut. If I weigh 100 lbs, I need to be at 5' on the bar to get the same value.

I searched (I think): lug nuts tire change on www.busnut.com
Read probably the first 3 threads. Some excellent info out there. Little tidbits like having a 4x10 to drive the flat tire up on so there's room for the jack.......do I need a 1/2, 3/4 or 1" impact wrench to break the lugs......how do I tell if my studs are stretched............

[Elliot Naess]

I was going to say "have a pro do it", but I also admire your DIY spirit.

If it is an outside rear that needs changing, just drive the inside rear up on a block of wood and you will not need a jack.

Yes, you may be able to sneak into the next town on one rear tire -- we do it with 18-wheelers occationally. We call it to "single it out". But it is iffy. Sure, it would be best to have the single tire out for stability, but I cannot see flipping the inner just for that. Drive 45 MPH max and very gently, and not far.

Odds are, you will not need any significant force to break the beads. These wheels do not have the safety hump that car wheels have. Big rig tires often separate from the rim just by losing all air pressure while parked.

But you may need a very high volume blast of air to seat the new tire. Pros carry a portable tank with a short one inch I.D. hose and a ball valve to deliver such a blast. The hose has a wide flat nozzle, a bit like a vacuum cleaner nozzle. Set the regular air hose flowing on the valve stem, and a big WHOOSH seats it. (MUCH safer than the old explosion of ether!)

I have seen a guy change such a tire without removing the rim! This guy was a pro's pro. The flat was an outside rear and I drove the inside tire up on a block. He then popped the tire off with a bar and a foot and the other hand. New tire back on same way -- and fast, and it looked easy!

[the_experience03]

Originally Posted by elkoskoolie

Ingersall tight is NOT correct. This can stretch your studs. I'm not an expert, and can only repeat what I've read. Seems between 450 and 500 ft. lbs. is correct for bus lug nuts. I can't imagine that it's different for skoolies.

Have you ever actually measured the output of most half inch impact guns at say 100 psi like you might see feeding it from the air brakes? 500 ft lbs would be on the upper end of what you could expect to see so long as you aren't sitting there hammering on it for 3 minutes. I know with my Aircat, for example, on the lowest setting I can get 150-175 ft lbs after 3-5 raps when it stalls out. I have verified this with my torque wrench. It makes tightening spindle nuts really easy. Most upper level impacts are rated at 1000 ft lbs, but if you start to read the fine print they are only rated at 800 or so ft lbs working torque. On top of that, most are weaker in forward rotation than reverse. Now understanding that they work by hammering means that you know that they get incrementally tighter based on how many times you let it hit. It's all a matter of knowing your equipment. Ever met that 80 year old engine builder that has a torque wrench built into his forearm? Same idea.

[bbbrt76]

Originally Posted by the_experience03

Ever met that 80 year old engine builder that has a torque wrench built into his forearm? Same idea.

i actually knew an engine builder who did all of his engine assembly with an impact, I couldn't fathom it, but comebacks were practically non-existent for him, though I would never trust a 1/2 in impact gun to put the wheels on my c-60 or any vehicle that size, no matter what they are rated, air supply through the couplings is never enough and going forward you can't trust them to reach torques high enough (my c-60 spec is 360 ft-lb) at work we never put medium duty wheels on with anything other than the 3/4 drive impact but that requires its own special air supply because the piping and hoses to rest of the shop are to small of a diameter to feed the gun

also does the vehicle in question have normal lug nuts and studs like your car or is it using wedge-lock type fasteners which require careful attention to the runout of the wheel during installation

[paul iossi]

If you're serious about doing your own tire work find a competant tire service person and have/pay them to teach you how to properly service the wheels and tires on your bus. their are enough variables in wheel designs and mounting systems that any advice here sight unseen could be extremely hazardous to your health and well being. translation if you make a mistake it could cost you life or limb or both.

a 10.00 x 20 tire with 90 psi of air inside has enough stored energy to loft a 16 lb bowling ball from the sidewalk to the top of the empire state building.

their is a reason that their are osha guidelines for tire service and that tire shops have safty cages to inflate tires in.

find out what kind and size of wheels you have, "dayton" wedge type or "budd" disc type. if budd type are they hub or stud piloted? is it worthwhile to carry a spare? if so what about some extra hardware, studs,wedges,washers and nuts for daytons or right and left threaded inner and outer dual nuts and front nuts for budd type wheels, or whatever is required for a hub piloted wheel, then round up the right tools and information to do the job an you still have to be in good enuff shape to handle a 200 pound tire assembly without hurting your self

for meit's like elliot started to say carry a spre and credit card, call the professional and be safe.

[Elliot Naess]

Yes, kaboom is entirely possible.

Last year I inadvertantly detonated a car wheel in my yard. It was one of those racing tires in my avatar, and it would not seat. I put it behind the house and clipped on an air chuck. Every once in a while I stopped the compressor, bled off a few pounds for a taste of safety, then checked the tire, keeping my head away. Last time I checked it, it was around 50 pounds, and still not seated. Fired the compressor back up and after a while... it seated. With a bang. Loud bang. The tire went over the house and landed on the front porch. The wheel, which failed catastrophically when the bead of the tire impacted it with maybe 60 PSI behind it, landed in the neighbor's yard.

Now I use professional tire lube, put in 30 PSI, and let it sit in the sun until it seats.

Sometimes when an 18-wheeler tire blows, the shock wave blows out (in!) the axle oil seal.

[lapeer20m]

Originally Posted by Elliot Naess

, and it looked easy!

the pro's do make tire changing look easy ! It once took me half a day to replace a leaky valve stem on a bus tire. The biggest vehicle we had was a jeep and it wouldn't break the bead. After driving on it several times, we finally parked the jeep on the tire and used a sledge hammer.

A cheap bottle jack can easily lift a skoolie....although not as easily as elliot's idea of driving onto a piece of wood.

[Elliot Naess]

I should have pointed out that big tires do NOT ALWAYS pop loose from the rim by themselves. The pros use some very big sledge hammers when they don't.

But the big difference is the absense of a "safety hump" inboard of the tire bead. That's what makes it so hard to get a car tire on and off.

And the block of wood can only be used of it is an outside rear tire that needs changing.

As for that very stuck bus tire.... Had it been on there for lots of years? I'm thinking that the rubber might stick to the metal after many years. In trucking, we drive over 100.000 miles per year, so tires don't get time to grow roots.

While I'm at it, let me give you guys some good news. In trucking, we very rarely have front tire punctures. Luckily! But the rest of the tires pick up tons of nails and such. What happens is that the nail is snoozing comfortably on the pavement, all stretched out flat. Thus the first tire that hits the nail is not harmed. But the nail sure is awakened from its nap, kneaded by the squirming rubber of the front tire, and now it bounces off the ground and goes tumbling like a rag doll in a clothes dryer. And if it is somewhat upright when the next tire comes along... in it goes like a nail is designed to.

[the_experience03]

If'n you want to take a dry run at changing your tires make sure you can get the duals apart. Every so often I get an R.O. to do a tire rotation on a motorhome and let me tell you...it's never a good time. More than once I have had to use the portapower with a wedge apparatus between the duals while alternating sledge hammer blows from side to side to get those suckers apart. Once they do come they come with a bang. Daytons come apart much easier assuming you don't have stuck wedges or a stuck spacer between them. The wedges can be knocked loose with the hammer once you get the nut broken loose, but LEAVE THE NUT ON THERE. You don't want to know how violently those things can come off. As for the spacers...well...hammer and pry, hammer and pry.

[Jarlaxle]

With Budds: if the rims touch (there are all sorts of designs out there), coat the area where they do with Never-Seize...do NOT get any on the lugs! Also, antiseize where the inner dual (or front rim) touches the hub is a good idea. It took three people & a very large prybar to get one of my inner duals off.

A good 1/2" impact will get the lugs off. No China Freight junk, think Chicago Pneumatic, Ingersoll-Rand, or Snap-On. Feed it 120+psi from a BIG tank through large-diameter hoses & fittings. Mine (a Snap-On) popped loose all the lugs on my bus.

[paul iossi]

for siezed budds i use a heavy drift pin and hammer, drift pin is about 1 1/2" dia x 18 or 20" long, hammer is a 12# sledge with the handle cut off @ 18", if the rims don't come loose from the hub, install 2 lug nuts loosly, then use the drift and hammer to impact straight in on the wheel between the lug studs usually 3 or 4 well placed blows are all it takes to free the wheels up. (don't tap around with the drift, haul off and hit it a good lick, move a third of the way around the wheel and hit it again) what you are trying to do is to flex the mating surfaces enough to release the rust.

on dayton wheels loosen the lug nuts and then hit the wheel on the id at the outside flange to pop the wedges then remove the nuts and wedges and wheel, the spacer on duals should be able to be flexed enuff with the hammet to loosen them for removal.

hint; if you're not a professional tireman it is easiest to use a scoop shovel to lift,lever the tire assembly up onto the hub

observation; most good tire professionals have forearms like Popeye.

final advice; only a torque wrench can tell you how tight your lugs are, to tight or to loose means damaged parts.

[paul iossi]

you probably won't feel much either way, and both are messy to clean up

[Griff]

Originally Posted by paul iossi

you probably won't feel much either way, and both are messy to clean up

[CAMO-MONSTER]

I bot a 3/4 inpacked gun from napa.
and for popping the beed on my
1971 four wheel drive I use my
high lift jack.

[Elliot Naess]

Now THAT'S what I call a jack!

Why air up a tire that needs to come off the rim anyway?

I keep trying to tell youse guys that tire work is better left to pros. Somewhere around here I must have described the "air cannon" that they use to seat tires.

The goop you are probably thinking of is a lubricant that is used with car tires, to get the tire past the safety hump on the rim. No such hump on our rims.

[bbbrt76]

the "goop" is a soap based lubricant specific to the purpose your local auto parts store should be able to sell you a container-DO NOT use grease though it will do the job it will cause rapid deterioration of the tire. if you get the bead blaster or "air cannon" (your parts store will likely have one of them also) there will be no need for the "goop", of course if you're feeling lucky there is the ether method you can find video's of on youtube but I suggest avoiding that.

[paul iossi]

the goop is murphy's oil soap, the tire stores buy it in 5 gal buckets or 55 gal drums, yes its the same stuff that you get at the grocery store in the plastic jar.

[Elliot Naess]

Mightybus, Good Grief -- if I am that good at fooling people, I ought to take a job on Wall Street!

Good point about finding the leak. Statistically, you will probably find a nail in there, but maybe not. See, you are already thinking better than I am.

I very much respect your desire to be self-sufficient in this matter. "Do your own thing", yes!

To post pictures.... Looks like you already have them hosted on a site where they are always available. That was the first step.

Next, you copy the address to the picture (select with mouse click, then hit Control + C).

Then you paste that (Control + V) into the posting form. BUT first you must click on "Img" above, and then you paste the address in the middle of that.

Some photo hosts can do the "Img" thing automatically. On Photobucket you copy the fourth version of the addresses listed under each picture -- that one already has the "Img" thing.

Experiment with the "preview" button.