Makes, models & years to get as close as possible to my ideal skoolie.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

YEah its got a 2000, freshly changed fluid too.

Its FAST for a school bus. But yeah it does need some love.
It would be 10k without the problems, though.
Straight, solid, almost rust free except where the lift leaked some hydraulic fluid and ate a softball sized hole on the floor.
Dash and rear ac, neither work. But the dash ac is RARE.

Holy Cow!!!

I just asked the shop down the road what it would cost to replace the timing cover gasket. He has to check on the parts but the book calls for 20 HOURS LABOR. IIRC: Their labor rate is $125 an hour.

Is the cover OK? Not cracked? Apparently that is an issue that they see.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Holy Cow!!!

I just asked the shop down the road what it would cost to replace the timing cover gasket. He has to check on the parts but the book calls for 20 HOURS LABOR. IIRC: Their labor rate is $125 an hour.

Is the cover OK? Not cracked? Apparently that is an issue that they see.

Cover has been eaten away inside by the coolant. 03 and 04 DT466E's suffer from this, its sort of a known problem in the truck service world.
Roxy does massage therapy and one of her customers is the regional service manager for IC and he said its prevalent in 04's big time. The coolant was the same since 2000 so I'm inclined to thing its a metallurgy problem, or bad castings.
Its over 20 hours and the quote from the service center in Orlando was nearly ten grand.
Probably 4500 at a mom and pop diesel shop.

[PNW_Steve]

Yeah..... That may be more that I want to get into in a bus that is 3000 miles away. I will wait to hear back from the shop and make up my mind.

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by PNW_Steve

Yeah..... That may be more that I want to get into in a bus that is 3000 miles away. I will wait to hear back from the shop and make up my mind.

It would make it 3000 miles if the coolant is topped off every so often.

I'm not here to sell anyone this bus, but its a pretty nice bus for what it is.

If I can convince shaun to hold on to it I may buy it back after summer. The body is nice and I'd like to slap a 530 in it.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

It would make it 3000 miles if the coolant is topped off every so often.

I'm not here to sell anyone this bus, but its a pretty nice bus for what it is.

If I can convince shaun to hold on to it I may buy it back after summer. The body is nice and I'd like to slap a 530 in it.

Let me see what the shop says.

A trip to Florida sounds kinda nice.

ROAD TRIP!!!!!

[Inner Love]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

But the dash ac is RARE.

Dash A/C rare in school buses? If so, forget I ever mentioned it.

Thank You PMW_Steve and GeminusPrime for all the engine info.

“...But yeah it does need some love.
It would be 10k without the problems, though.”
Holy ****...

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by debit.servus

Dash A/C rare in school buses? If so, forget I ever mentioned it.

Thank You PMW_Steve and GeminusPrime for all the engine info.

“...But yeah it does need some love.
It would be 10k without the problems, though.”
Holy ****...

Yes. Dash AC is a rare luxury in a school bus.

[Inner Love]

Being a realist, my criteria is simply a 1990s bus with a good or better engine / trans combo (manual or automated, tall gearing). Can the mods let me edit my opening posts to reflect this.



For those after me who share my philoposhy: If you want a rig for the decades the most important factor is choosing a bus with a good-to-great engine and transmission combo, that is all-mechanical or mostly mechanical, this means a school bus with a model year no later than 2003. After 2003 is when the efficiency and electronic-control systems in American vehicles really got out of hand and started to become restriction mechanisms and revenue streams for the manufacturer. Vehicles made after 2010 will run rough if at all without their electronic systems.



In either case, all-mechanical or mostly mechanical, it is in your best interest to stockpile parts for your future self decades from now. Stockpile as many unique and rare parts as you can afford to, but not of highly perishable materials like rubber belts.



This is not just about cost, this is about being able to service your bus when it's 50 years old. Efficiency comes at the cost of longevity. Emmissions systems, common rails injectors, propriatory systems & dealer-locked features are what take modern vehicles to the junkyard in shorter and shorter lifecycles. Even if you stockpile all the proprietory parts & special, you will still need to work around some restriction mechanisms or bypass them completly because of the intentional design the automaker did that is no longer supported.

I anticipate that with the rise of CNC machines & 3D printers (including 3D metal printing), your Worst Case Scenario with an all-mechanical engine in 2053 is you will need to fabricate parts. Imagine, New old stock on Unique parts is virtually exhausted for your 1990s Skoolie. You can look for a suitable part in barns and junkyards like people do with 1960 classic cars in the 2020s, or you can fabricate a brand new part meeting the tolerances and spec of your original part. For example, your camshaft snaps after 1.2 million miles. In the 2050s can take your camshaft and 3D scan it, clean up the 3D scan using the 3D modeling tools at the time (if there isn't a 3D model already available on the internet) and order a CNC milled part that meet the quality standards of the original. Boom, brand new part where it would otherwise be unavailable or need to be fabricated by a master machinist.



Since it is unlikely commercial vehicles are going to return to basics anytime soon, this will mean that high-tech vehicles will need to be "low-techified" to keep them on the road as the complex systems fail and aren't servicable by mechanics or dealers at any price because they don't have the special tools / software nor the expericence to use them.


90s buses are only getting rarer from the 2020s onward, so if you're are on the fence about skoolie life I recommend you speed it up.


Please judge this bus: http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f14/1995-40-carpenter-seattle-wa-5k-29843.html


-Engine is an all-mechanical 5.9 cummins.



-Allison MT643 4-speed, Part of the Allison 2000 series.



-Drivetrain is in great shape.



-No visible rust in any of the pictures.



Now, this engine sounds underpowered for any 40' FE. The trans is only 4 speed (unless there are hidden overdrive(s) that aren't seen on the dash.



The hardest decision right now is how many degrees of underpoweredness I'm willing to accept. If I could only choose between a severly undersized but bulletproof all-mechanical drivetrain and a well-sized but modern-computerized drivetrain I would pick the former without any hesitation.



The prep work has already being done inside the bus, I am treating as a Bonus.



When I first saw this I became am engulfed with the "I Found IT!" feeling, so much so that if this checks out to my criteria and it doesn't move by Saturday I'm going to title loan my Ford Focus. Buses like this come up for sale few and far between.

[brokedown]

I think you've got your dates mixed up on mechanical vs electronic. Electronic engines took over in the 90s. The difference between 2003 and 2004 engines is EPA2004 requirements and the bad decisions made to meet them.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi...y=P1001YS2.TXT

generally speaking, the first generation of electronic engines are easy to work with, but you might want a tool that can read j1939 diagnostics like a scangauge diesel.

MT643 is not part of the 2000 series, predating that series by decades. The 2000 series was introduced in 1999. It is a 4 speed mechanical transmission, no hidden gears or computers.

Mechanical 12 valve 5.9 (6BT) is typically going to be around a 190hp tune. newer 24 valve electronic (ISB) can be much higher, mine is 260hp. With a MT643 and appropriate gearing it should be fine if not fast. There are lots of bigger engines making 190hp or less in full size buses.

[Mountain Gnome]

Early 1990s gas motors with an ECM were "tricky" to work on because each was proprietary, and the computers were clueless when something was wrong. In 1996 that changed with the Feds wisely mandating OBD-2. Diesels became electronic after the initial fuddle. They are no "harder" to work on, but may require a scanner. The ECU controlled motors (gas and diesel) get better fuel mileage, more horsepower, "run" generally smoother and quieter (yea my Cummins 5.9L is still loud, most gasers are quieter) and pollute far less.


I hope in 30 years that Greta Thunberg has made a difference and diesel is so hard to find, and hydrogen has finally taken hold as a "portable" fuel, or a new type of "cleaner," more efficient battery made of common (affordably $$ cheap) lightweight materials that fully charges in minutes is available, or something else even better comes along. They are saying that they are now making breakthroughs in fusion, and 30 years is plenty of time to build up the infrastructure around using the power it generates to make and distribute hydrogen.


However, in the meantime, your old all-mechanical diesel CAN be easily converted to run cheap waste vegi-oil, and can be easily hy-boosted, unlike the newer electronic ones. Hy-boosting means adding about 5% hydrogen to your other (dinosaur) fuel, which causes all the fuel to burn in the combustion chamber, and at a cooler temp, yielding more power and efficiency and no hydrocarbon emissions or particulates. "They" (the govment) have said having to maintain 2 types of fuel in a vehicle is too confusing for the average consumer (I did have a client who put diesel in her gaser), but now DEF systems are everywhere and the vehicle owners are not clueless fools running in circles like circus clowns around their trucks saying "help I'm confused!" Reality is that hydrogen-boosting opens up the door to using any liquid/vaporous fuel (and maybe powdered, too) cleanly in your combustion motor, and the govment that controls the world does not want to open the door to allowing that tech to take hold (they control the world with dino-oil that requires massive infrastructure to produce, and is sold only in U.S. dollar$$$ so any country/entity that wants to buy/sell oil has to play ball with the U.S. and U.S. banking laws), so hydrogen is not readily available to the average consumer.

[Inner Love]

Originally Posted by brokedown

I think you've got your dates mixed up on mechanical vs electronic. Electronic engines took over in the 90s. The difference between 2003 and 2004 engines is EPA2004 requirements and the bad decisions made to meet them.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi...y=P1001YS2.TXT

I should have put a disclaimer on the post saying it's not meant to be a wiki article, I have a habit of rushing posts just to get it out ASAP.


Wow, All-mechanical engine AND trans! This buses specs is a representitive picture of what I'm after. Buses like this are only getting rarer and rarer. They're going to get so rare that bus nuts who want one will need to repatriate junkyard buses from home and abroad.



Going back to my OP, the rig perfectionists will say:

-"it's $5000, and I'm sure I can get one just like it for $4000!"

-It's badged Ford, even though Carpenter made it (not knowing the lineages)!

-"It doesn't have the desert tan color I dream of!"

-"How dare they don't put the windows back in" or "How dare they didn't take all the windows out".



Meanwhile, realists and people will see a amazing bus that even has undercarriage storage and a drivers side emergency exit (I'm also treating these features as Bonuses). Undercarriage is an indication that this bus was an activity bus.

Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome

Early 1990s gas motors with an ECM were "tricky" to work on because each was proprietary, and the computers were clueless when something was wrong. In 1996 that changed with the Feds wisely mandating OBD-2. Diesels became electronic after the initial fuddle. They are no "harder" to work on, but may require a scanner. The ECU controlled motors (gas and diesel) get better fuel mileage, more horsepower, "run" generally smoother and quieter (yea my Cummins 5.9L is still loud, most gasers are quieter) and pollute far less.


I hope in 30 years that Greta Thunberg has made a difference and diesel is so hard to find, and hydrogen has finally taken hold as a "portable" fuel, or a new type of "cleaner," more efficient battery made of common (affordably $$ cheap) lightweight materials that fully charges in minutes is available, or something else even better comes along. They are saying that they are now making breakthroughs in fusion, and 30 years is plenty of time to build up the infrastructure around using the power it generates to make and distribute hydrogen.


However, in the meantime, your old all-mechanical diesel CAN be easily converted to run cheap waste vegi-oil, and can be easily hy-boosted, unlike the newer electronic ones. Hy-boosting means adding about 5% hydrogen to your other (dinosaur) fuel, which causes all the fuel to burn in the combustion chamber, and at a cooler temp, yielding more power and efficiency and no hydrocarbon emissions or particulates. "They" (the govment) have said having to maintain 2 types of fuel in a vehicle is too confusing for the average consumer (I did have a client who put diesel in her gaser), but now DEF systems are everywhere and the vehicle owners are not clueless fools running in circles like circus clowns around their trucks saying "help I'm confused!" Reality is that hydrogen-boosting opens up the door to using any liquid/vaporous fuel (and maybe powdered, too) cleanly in your combustion motor, and the govment that controls the world does not want to open the door to allowing that tech to take hold (they control the world with dino-oil that requires massive infrastructure to produce, and is sold only in U.S. dollar$$$ so any country/entity that wants to buy/sell oil has to play ball with the U.S. and U.S. banking laws), so hydrogen is not readily available to the average consumer.

This is why vehicles are made the way they are, for the Oil Monopoly and Companies that make big profit from these efficiency systems, the customer is far down on the shareholder chain, and gets stuck with this high priced & high hassle garbage with todays vehicles.



Beware, switching one master (oil companies) to another master (electric companies, eco nazis) won't make us any freeer. At least the oil companies only want you to use their oil... I want to own my **** and not have systems that are on such tight tolerances that they need to be in tip top shape to run right. I want to be able to repair everything on a vehicle myself if I so choose, and I don't want to have anything more than ODB-2. IMO, anything more than OBD-2 is Dimishing Returns for efficiency. Keeping a vehicle in good to great condition is hard enough, I don't want to make it any harder by having propriatory, restricting systems in my vehicles.



The world may be screwed up but my world doesn't have to be.



The next car culture renissance is set to use open-standard, modular electric vehicles using commodity motors, batteries and controllers. Don't expect that from Tesla or on any dealer lot.

[EastCoastCB]

That's a real good post, man! ^

[Mountain Gnome]

Until you can buy a mini fusion machine (or similar), there will be centralized power, to keep industry running.


You can make your own power at home with solar. But you will still pay someone for the panels.


Or you can make your own hydrogen at home with various different methods, including algae pools. Then you can make any of various other cheap low-grade fuels at home and use them in conjunction with hydrogen, and they will come to life and burn cleanly. Hydrogen is the fuel that will eventually break us free of centralized power generation.


"and not have systems that are on such tight tolerances that they need to be in tip top shape to run right. I want to be able to repair everything on a vehicle myself if I so choose, and I don't want to have anything more than ODB-2. IMO, anything more than OBD-2 is Dimishing Returns for efficiency. Keeping a vehicle in good to great condition is hard enough, I don't want to make it any harder by having propriatory, restricting systems in my vehicles."


Not sure what you mean here. First you said you don't want electronics. Now you say OBD-2 is OK. Every motor needs to have tight tolerances, or it will not run "right". You can repair a computer controlled motor. You just have to get over the fear of newer tech.




And a hy-boosted vehicle is not proprietary or restricting. The technology was originally developed in the 1960s. Patents are long since expired.



"The next car culture renissance is set to use open-standard, modular electric vehicles using commodity motors, batteries and controllers. Don't expect that from Tesla or on any dealer lot."


So people are going to build their own car, from the frame, upward?


I suspect most people will still pay a car dealer to do it for them, just like they pay someone to build their houses. Plus you will have to pass vehicle construction laws if you start from scratch, or just continue to pay industry to sell you a frame, and the other components.


But hey, who am I to argue with international-corporate economic socialism. International corporate capitalism is the problem. Local personal capitalism (mom & pop stores) are wonderful.


My bottom line really is, though, that in 30 years, I hope you will not even find the diesel, and if you do, people will look at you like a skunk on Greyhound bus driving from New York to L.A. That's not meant to insult you, personally, just the concept of running a smoggy old beat-up 50 year old diesel motor.

[Mountain Gnome]

I forgot to say:


I mean to say that in 50 years, when every one else is driving clean electric vehicles, you will be the guy smoking a cigar in the children's section of the public library.


Brittan has already set a date, soon, to outlaw combustion motors.

[Mountain Gnome]

Just happened to read this a moment ago.


Quote:
Prof Zhao says that if the water-splitting technology is developed further, there could one day be hydrogen refuelling stations much like petrol stations today where you could go and fill up your hydrogen fuel-cell car with hydrogen gas produced by this water-splitting reaction. The refuelling could be done in a matter of minutes as compared to hours in the case of lithium-battery powered electric cars.
“We’re hoping our research can be used by stations like these to make their own hydrogen using sustainable sources such as water, solar and these low cost, yet efficient, catalysts.”


From:
https://scitechdaily.com/new-way-to-...-more-cheaply/


So it seems you may say goodbye to centralized power generation sooner than later....I hope

[Inner Love]

Originally Posted by brokedown

I think you've got your dates mixed up on mechanical vs electronic. Electronic engines took over in the 90s. The difference between 2003 and 2004 engines is EPA2004 requirements and the bad decisions made to meet them.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi...y=P1001YS2.TXT

generally speaking, the first generation of electronic engines are easy to work with, but you might want a tool that can read j1939 diagnostics like a scangauge diesel.

MT643 is not part of the 2000 series, predating that series by decades. The 2000 series was introduced in 1999. It is a 4 speed mechanical transmission, no hidden gears or computers.

Mechanical 12 valve 5.9 (6BT) is typically going to be around a 190hp tune. newer 24 valve electronic (ISB) can be much higher, mine is 260hp. With a MT643 and appropriate gearing it should be fine if not fast. There are lots of bigger engines making 190hp or less in full size buses.

Originally Posted by Mountain Gnome

Until you can buy a mini fusion machine (or similar), there will be centralized power, to keep industry running.


You can make your own power at home with solar. But you will still pay someone for the panels.


Or you can make your own hydrogen at home with various different methods, including algae pools. Then you can make any of various other cheap low-grade fuels at home and use them in conjunction with hydrogen, and they will come to life and burn cleanly. Hydrogen is the fuel that will eventually break us free of centralized power generation.


"and not have systems that are on such tight tolerances that they need to be in tip top shape to run right. I want to be able to repair everything on a vehicle myself if I so choose, and I don't want to have anything more than ODB-2. IMO, anything more than OBD-2 is Dimishing Returns for efficiency. Keeping a vehicle in good to great condition is hard enough, I don't want to make it any harder by having propriatory, restricting systems in my vehicles."


Not sure what you mean here. First you said you don't want electronics. Now you say OBD-2 is OK. Every motor needs to have tight tolerances, or it will not run "right". You can repair a computer controlled motor. You just have to get over the fear of newer tech.


I'm not aginst electronics, I'm against systems deliberately built to be restrictive for the end user. I love computers & tech, infact my first entreprenurial venture is going to be an internet service company. There are no solutions, only trade offs. I want to be the person hand driving American muscle when everybody else on the road is in their fully-automous, electric cars. OBD-2 and similar electronic control is just a compromise if I can't find a all-mechanical drivetrain. Or in an age where the government forces retrofit requirements on antique vehicles or else they can't be driven on public roads.



If you want to repair a skoolie with the least number of specialized tools, in most cases, all-mechanical is the way to go. With the places I'm going to explore with my skoolie, I want to keep it simple so any diesel mechanic can work on it, or at least do a temporary fix.



Take this hypethical scenario: The mechanical fuel pump shakes loose and breaks 20 miles from Tuktoyaktuk, NWT. I have 8 days left in Canada before I max out my 6 months in Canada for the year and I don't have time to fly in a new fuel pump with the handling times. I open the hood and see that along with the fuel pump, one bolt is missing on one side, I reseat it down with a couple bands of duct tape and limp it back into town as theres only enough fuel delivery to drive 10 MPH. The next day the local diesel mechanic (who usually works on semis and the occasional tour bus), doesn't have the part but can perform a temporary fix. He took time out of his day as he has a broken down semi that needs to be put back together ASAP. The temporary fix afford me the abilty to drive the bus carefully down the Dempster to Whitehorse where I've booked an appointment with the truck shop, who has ordered the part from the parts house in Edmonton to be sent in the next shipment to Whitehorse. I arrive in Whitehorse and get the new fuel pump installed 3 days later. Many part failures that would be a showstopper with a modern computer controlled efficient bus are a delay with a all-mechanical school bus.



...



"The next car culture renissance is set to use open-standard, modular electric vehicles using commodity motors, batteries and controllers. Don't expect that from Tesla or on any dealer lot."


So people are going to build their own car, from the frame, upward


People should have the freedom to build a car from scratch if they so choose, and be able to drive it on public roads provided it meets minimum standards. Otherwise they're limited to private property and unpaved roads. Most people are still going to buy their car, and that OK.



I suspect most people will still pay a car dealer to do it for them, just like they pay someone to build their houses. Plus you will have to pass vehicle construction laws if you start from scratch, or just continue to pay industry to sell you a frame, and the other components.

Most people will, and thats fine. We wouldn't be where we are without specialization of labor. What I'm saying is today there are few options to get a rare part for your rare classic car, economical small scale fabrication is the ticket to having more options to get new parts for vintage vehicles.



But hey, who am I to argue with international-corporate economic socialism. International corporate capitalism is the problem. Local personal capitalism (mom & pop stores) are wonderful.


Capitilism has it's issues, mainly overcapitalism, but it's the reason the price of a top of the line scan tool will come down later this decade, likely because the patent royalties and licensing agreements will expire. Profit is the fuel for taking big risks, without it the monetary motivation is gone. So hopefully in a few years the royalities & licensing ends so the cost of scan tools drops. Kodak lived on these royalties until they ended in 2007, notice after 2007 digital cameras really started to take off and Kodak withered because they were playing catch-up because they lived on the royalties of past innovations.

I called the law firm today and the once the insurance company gives the all clear after they've checked for liens aginst their clients, they'll send the settlement checks out. The receptionist said the timeframe for this based on past cases is 1-2 months and then about 2 weeks to mail the checks.



I'm going to call again tomorrow to ask about borrowing against my settlement check, I really want that bus I asked about.

[ACamper]

Originally Posted by debit.servus

Being a realist, my criteria is simply a 1990s bus with a good or better engine / trans combo (manual or automated, tall gearing).

Originally Posted by debit.servus

This is not just about cost, this is about being able to service your bus when it's 50 years old.

I had this train of thought once. I love cars and trucks from the 60s. I though I will just restore one and never have to deal with emissions, computers, plastic junk, etc. I dropped a nice 302ci engine in a 30 year old car, it was great.. until it needed bushings, bearings, transmission, gauges... Something else every other week.. and I realized why 30 year old vehicles are not daily drivers. Vehicles are designed to go 15years or 200k miles. A vehicle has thousands of parts designed for just that- 15years or 200k miles.

Remanufactured parts also tend to suck, many times I would replace a 25yr old starter to have it go out in 4mo. In the 70s they were made in Detroit with a brad name attached now they are made in China from a company that has already folded. Then you have parts not getting produced after 15 years so it can take weeks of hunting just to find or make one.

There is a reason you do not see many 30-40 year old vehicles driving around. When you do the owners will usually have stories of devotion, pain and high cost to go with them.

[EastCoastCB]

I drive my 32 year old truck every day.

[ACamper]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I drive my 32 year old truck every day.

You are a very rare situation. I would imagine their are a lot of factors that go behind it all such as hundreds of hours of mechanical work and low miles and rpm's ?

I drive my 84 every few weeks but I drive it like a farm truck, low rpms and low miles and lots of noises I should fix but ignore.

[EastCoastCB]

Meh, its a 32 year old truck with a crate motor someone slapped in back in 2004-ish. THe truck has 188k miles and I just love it.
One can pay 50 grand for a new plastic toy truck that's unfixable ever or they can spend half that money keeping an oldie alive and well.
Everyone has their own opinions on vehicles but after owning a couple newer vehicles and being totally unsatisfied I'm 100% avoiding new stuff. The way I see it I can keep my 87 truck and my wife's 99 miata on the road a lot easier and cheaper than full coverage insurance and couple monthly car payments.
If one ever craps I'll just cough up the $3500 to replace it.