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Old 06-05-2020, 07:33 AM   #1
Skoolie
 
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My bus caught fire yesterday.

I wonder how many of y'all have had this happen.

Took it out for the first time in about a month, though I had kept it running by starting it regularly and moving it a few feet so that flat spots didn't form in the tires.

Drove it 15-20 miles with no trouble. At one point, the PTO light started flickering on the dash... I thought that was weird because it didn't have PTO. A few seconds later, the OIL/WATER light flickered on. I checked coolant temp - normal. Oil pressure - normal. Figured that my gauge cluster had developed another electrical gremlin to accompany the one it's had since the start with the gauges intermittently freezing, especially during cold weather.

Then a few seconds later, the engine started hiccupping and sputtering. Another few seconds and it had stalled. Pulled over, black smoke was coming out from under the hood. Grabbed my important stuff and got out. Within minutes I was hanging up on AAA to call 911, and this was the end result. (Why didn't I call 911 right away? Because the first and only time before this that a vehicle of mine emitted black smoke from under its hood, the problem was two snapped engine belts because the AC compressor had seized, and that was no big deal. I thought at first, using that experience as a baseline, that the issue would resolve itself.)

I'd feel a lot better if I knew why it happened. The firefighters said it appeared to have been electrical but they weren't sure.

Nobody was on the bus except me, and I got out in plenty of time.

I hate to ask what will surely sound like a stupid question but if this happened to me, with no forewarning, I imagine that it's happened to others. IS THIS COMMON?

(And what towing / roadside assistance service do y'all use? I had AAA RV Premium and they told me that they don't tow school buses even if they are titled as motorhomes.)
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Old 06-05-2020, 07:50 AM   #2
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Man, that's terrible. I'm so sorry.
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:12 AM   #3
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Glad you made it out safe
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:30 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
Man, that's terrible. I'm so sorry.
I've never felt this crappy about losing a vehicle before... not even my beloved first car, a 1972 Cadillac that got wrecked when a drunk driver pulled out in front of me without yielding the right of way.

But if I can learn something from this, it may have been worthwhile. Besides, there are more buses, so if I want to do this again, I will be able to. I'd really like to know a roadside assistance service that handles vehicles this size. AAA told me that, even though I have RV Premium membership, they only tow RVs that were factory-built as RVs. I highly doubt that every skoolie owner out there just takes his/her chances and hopes never to have to get a tow.

And I learned... always get full coverage insurance. "I don't drive this much - what are the chances I'll hit something?" "Even if I do hit something, it probably won't cause much damage to the bus." "Even if it does cause a significant amount of damage, insurance won't give me much because these things aren't worth much." "If I did 'total' it, I could still probably scrap it and get two grand for the powertrain, tires, windows, etc."

Uh huh.

Next time I'll know that "randomly catching fire" is a thing, just like next time I'll know that "coronavirus" is a thing. I'm mad over losing a few hundred bucks in mods that I did to the inside... I can't imagine how people who've fully converted their buses would feel in the same situation.
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Old 06-05-2020, 08:56 AM   #5
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Glad you're safe!

Yeah, buses do sometimes catch fire. The newer and more complicated the engine the more headaches, failures, and other crap can result.

Folks really need to understand that mechanical maintenance and servicing may not be fun or glamorous but its every bit as important as the rest of the build. That's why we try to push folks to get pre-emissions stuff. Its just more user friendly. There are several things that could have caused it. What sort of maintenace or work has been done on it? Is it an egr engine?
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:13 AM   #6
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Ouch. Sorry for the loss. I had an 88 GMC Suburban that was all kinds of jacked up (modded) and while driving home one night, I started to notice a blue smoke in my driver side mirror. I thought I was burning oil and decided to pull over and investigate. The second I opened my door, flames jutted out from under the wheel well.

I had a fire extinguisher in the rear but as I was running to get it, a friendly motorist stopped in front of my truck, jumped out with his own extinguisher and went to work. Turns out my power steering hose broke at the connector and was spraying fluid onto my header wrap. Basically turning my engine bay into a giant oil lamp.

Luckily, the truck was lifted so much and hardly any plastic parts or wires near the fire. I got an uber into town and bought the new hose. Had it back on the road in two hours. Definitely always carry a fire extinguisher in your ride, especially if it's older or you're unfamiliar with its past maintenance history.

This truck. Sold her to buy and build my bus. I kinda miss her. (Shown below: Twist test day using a fork lift)Click image for larger version

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Old 06-05-2020, 09:55 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Glad you're safe!

Yeah, buses do sometimes catch fire. The newer and more complicated the engine the more headaches, failures, and other crap can result.

Folks really need to understand that mechanical maintenance and servicing may not be fun or glamorous but its every bit as important as the rest of the build. That's why we try to push folks to get pre-emissions stuff. Its just more user friendly. There are several things that could have caused it. What sort of maintenace or work has been done on it? Is it an egr engine?
Honestly, I hadn't done any maintenance or work to the engine. I figured that it wasn't necessary given how little I've driven it. Literally, since getting it, I put maybe 800 miles on it.

Thinking through what happened, I figured that if it had lost all of its oil, the engine should have cut out. I had a 1996 Gulfstream motorhome with a T444E, and when I sold it, the guy texted me not long thereafter and said that the engine had cut out because it ran too low on oil. (I never had that problem.) So it stood to reason in my mind that a diesel engine, 8 years newer, made by the same company, ought to have had the same safety feature. Even if it didn't, the oil pressure gauge should have shown zero or close to it if it had run out of oil, and it didn't.

I know that the front timing cover is a thing on those engines but if it had lost all of its coolant, the coolant temp gauge should have shown high even if there was no safety feature in the engine to shut it off before overheating. I've had cars lose all of their coolant before, and that's exactly what happens - the temp gauge goes up. Had it been trans fluid, the trans would've started slipping - had that happen before too.

And when I retraced the last few hundred feet of my bus' life, I saw no leaked fluid. What I did see were small pieces of black ash.

The one thing that probably should have clued me in was when I started seeing small drops of who knows what fall onto the road underneath the engine, aflame. It looked like little drops of fire falling onto the road, but they didn't appear to be liquid because they didn't splatter upon impact.

EGR - who knows. It did have a "Spiracle" filtration system that may have been EGR but the engine itself was an '03 or an '04 model. (Model year for the bus was 2004.) As I understand, that's pre-modern emissions.

For my next bus, I'd love to get something older and simpler, but it still has to be at least 6'5" interior height, preferably even taller. Sadly, it seems like all of the really old buses that have the much simpler powertrains are also rather short inside.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:08 PM   #8
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did it have an exhaust filter add-on?

Those have to be checked and cleaned.

When buses sit a lot they tend to not do as well. They're happiest running regularly.
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Old 06-05-2020, 02:34 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
did it have an exhaust filter add-on?

Those have to be checked and cleaned.

When buses sit a lot they tend to not do as well. They're happiest running regularly.
It had a Spiracle filter, which as far as I can tell from looking it up online is a crankcase filter - something to do with reducing blow-by. The thing was a huge, vertically oriented cylinder.

I can't see how much of this stuff would cause the whole thing to catch fire. Run poorly, sure - catch fire?! Seriously? If there's one thing that buses ought to be engineered not to do, pretty much at all costs, it's catch fire!
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Old 06-05-2020, 05:50 PM   #10
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to get a fire that hot and quick it would need a accelerant like fuel or lots of plastic. not a lot of plastic on these so i would think diesel from the black smoke. really doubt it was a wire as they use fuses, circuit breakers and fusable links. however as it started burning your wires cross shorted going wacky. the sputtering engine probably lost fuel pressure from a leaking line. that and a hot exhaust spelled doom . always keep a good eye on all fuel lines
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:34 PM   #11
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oil or fuel on the exhaust

once oil, or fuel hits hot exhaust it will usually flash. so any leak from engine oil , like the supply line to the turbocharger or fuel, like a pressure line to an injector, hits the exhaust, you get fire and the fire will not be able to be put out until the auto ignition temperature falls....

power steering fluid, diesel fuel, automatic transmission oil, engine oil... all have similar flash points when sprayed onto a hot metal pipe. somewhere around 800 to 1000 degrees. with a vehicle stopped and engine running all of these fluids will be pumped though lines and hoses. With the exhaust on the passenger side, along with the turbocharger... there is the heat source... fuel lines, engine oil lines and possible transmission lines are the fuel sources all available to the passenger side of the engine bay. power steering I would rule out because most all the stuff is on the other side of the motor.

A hose with a fine little crack or split will spray a mist of oil.... fire waiting to happen.... Yea it happens.... a 65 vw beetle will burn to nothing usable is less than five minutes.

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Old 06-05-2020, 10:45 PM   #12
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Man, sorry to read about your loss.


There's been discussions about fluids, hoses and electrical so far but one thing I noticed missing was mention of activity of critters ... either chewing on wires, or building nests with flammable materials in places that can get hot, or putting things in places that will block airflow.
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Old 06-06-2020, 06:32 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by magnakansas View Post
once oil, or fuel hits hot exhaust it will usually flash. so any leak from engine oil , like the supply line to the turbocharger or fuel, like a pressure line to an injector, hits the exhaust, you get fire and the fire will not be able to be put out until the auto ignition temperature falls....

power steering fluid, diesel fuel, automatic transmission oil, engine oil... all have similar flash points when sprayed onto a hot metal pipe. somewhere around 800 to 1000 degrees.
What the hell is the exhaust doing getting up to that hot under the hood? Seriously, isn't that extremely dangerous even without stuff leaking onto the exhaust? Is this just a thing with diesel engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnakansas View Post
A hose with a fine little crack or split will spray a mist of oil.... fire waiting to happen.... Yea it happens.... a 65 vw beetle will burn to nothing usable is less than five minutes.

william.
Does that mean this happened to you?

I would wonder why I saw and smelled nothing after I stopped at Home Depot. That's several miles from my house and by then everything would've been up to full operating temperature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad_SwiftFur View Post
Man, sorry to read about your loss.

There's been discussions about fluids, hoses and electrical so far but one thing I noticed missing was mention of activity of critters ... either chewing on wires, or building nests with flammable materials in places that can get hot, or putting things in places that will block airflow.
Okay, I can see that. But as I stated above, why did I see and smell nothing when I stopped at Home Depot after driving several miles at speeds up to 55 mph? I'd think that any such thing, if it were the cause of the fire, would have generated at least some smoke within the first few miles.

And I saw and smelled nothing prior to the dash lights starting to act funny. In retrospect, I wonder if I should have popped the hood and tried to put the fire out with the on-board fire extinguisher... but I guess you could say that my "conditioning" kicked in and I thought of nothing but getting away. I don't think my wife and kids would've found it to be adequate compensation for my life if they were told that I died because I tried to be heroic and put out the fire myself.
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Old 06-06-2020, 06:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Diesel engine exhaust gases vary with speed and load. High loads and high speeds result in the highest temperatures. Generally, temperatures of 500–700°C (932–1293°F) are produced in the exhaust gases from diesel-cycle engines at 100% load to 200–300°C (392–572°F) with no load.
Diesel exhaust gets very hot.

There's a good article on Shchool Bus Fleet about bus fires.

https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/artic...in-your-future

Quote:
Joe Scesny of the New York State Department of Transportation says he’s seeing an increase in school bus fires starting in the increasingly complicated circuit boards on today’s buses. More traditional locations of fires include the engine compartment, due to leaking power steering and transmission fluids, and the rear tires.
Quote:
Because power steering and transmission fluids can be operating under pressure, leaks are not uncommon. These fluids have a flash point similar to gasoline’s, so while engine oil and diesel fuel are less prone to ignite, these fluids dripping on the exhaust system or near any electrical spark can ignite quickly.
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Old 06-06-2020, 06:39 AM   #15
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As far as roadside service goes, GoodSam has my vote. Towed my bus, twice, in a 2 week or so period, saving me over $1500. The coverage also covers our cars, and came to jump start wifes car last week due to a battery issue.

Sorry about your bus. I played taps for it.
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Old 06-06-2020, 06:50 AM   #16
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You did the right thing getting out. A bus isn't worth anything close to a life.

I just noticed your bus is the exact same make as mine just a year later. Unfortunately I recognize all the parts of my bus in those photos. But speaking of parts, I might want to buy some salvaged bits of your bus before you have it scrapped (if you haven't already). I'd like to acquire your rear bumper and end caps, the semi-circular trim pieces on the outside of the wheel wells, some pieces of the bumper rail, and a couple of windows. Also your roof escape hatches if they're the same type as mine.

I hope this isn't too ghoulish of me, but you could get more for these particular bits than scrap prices.

Edit: COVID willing, I'll be driving my parents out to Kent in September or October and I could pick the bits up then, although I'm a bit unsure about the feasibility of getting the bumper back.
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Old 06-06-2020, 09:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Diesel exhaust gets very hot.

There's a good article on Shchool Bus Fleet about bus fires.

https://www.schoolbusfleet.com/artic...in-your-future
Do you know, right off the bat, if these problems are reduced or eliminated in gasoline-powered buses? Or if certain engine and transmission combinations are less prone to them?

Could it be that a line simply rusted out? I had a fuel injector line blow on a 1985 Chrysler New Yorker, spewing gasoline everywhere as I drove... and it caught nothing on fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sraycwb View Post
As far as roadside service goes, GoodSam has my vote. Towed my bus, twice, in a 2 week or so period, saving me over $1500. The coverage also covers our cars, and came to jump start wifes car last week due to a battery issue.

Sorry about your bus. I played taps for it.
Good Sam. Okay, good to know. I'll look into them when next we get a bus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musigenesis View Post
You did the right thing getting out. A bus isn't worth anything close to a life.

I just noticed your bus is the exact same make as mine just a year later. Unfortunately I recognize all the parts of my bus in those photos. But speaking of parts, I might want to buy some salvaged bits of your bus before you have it scrapped (if you haven't already). I'd like to acquire your rear bumper and end caps, the semi-circular trim pieces on the outside of the wheel wells, some pieces of the bumper rail, and a couple of windows. Also your roof escape hatches if they're the same type as mine.

I hope this isn't too ghoulish of me, but you could get more for these particular bits than scrap prices.

Edit: COVID willing, I'll be driving my parents out to Kent in September or October and I could pick the bits up then, although I'm a bit unsure about the feasibility of getting the bumper back.
I PMed you with information on where the bus is currently located. I'd get on it quickly if I were you, because I have no knowledge of how long vehicles like that sit around in the yard before being scrapped. I do know that they're hoping to get whatever they can out of it. Don't be surprised if they make you pay for the parts in advance, and potentially a storage fee if they have to hold the parts.

I can tell you this - if you buy any parts, and you let me know that you did, I will pick them up and bring them to my garage so that you won't have to pay storage fees. I have enough room to store what you mentioned. I don't know how I could help you with transporting the bumper, but I'd be willing to exercise whatever creativity I could muster. What type of vehicle would you be using to transport everything?
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Old 06-06-2020, 09:58 AM   #18
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None of us will ever truly know exactly what caused your fire.

But the newer the bus the more there is going on to maintain and keep an eye on.
Any bus/rv can catch fire. We've even had one of our members here badly injured in a propane explosion on their bus.
These things serve as stark warning so folks know that buses come with a heavy responsibility when it comes to mechanical maintenance. Schools spend thousands and thousands every year keeping these things on the road. The average skoolie really doesn't get much mechanical love. Not picking on you at all here, I hope you understand. I've had some close calls with bus disaster too. And like you my first bus cost me big. But I learn as I go, and over the years I've learned to look for something I can get to know and mostly do my own maintenance.
I've had my bus a couple years and I've not even begun to convert it. I don't have much money so as I can I've been fixing EVERYthing I can on it and doing all the maintenance I can find to do on it. To me that's the first step if you really wanna keep a bus. Get it 100% tip top like its an aircraft lol. Hell- lots of folks give up when they find out tires are a couple grand.
Even being really thrifty buses need money thrown at them at intervals and sometimes in between.
I really do appreciate you posting this and you've had a really good attitude about what's happened. I'd have been beside myself and sadposting all night lol.
If you don't give up and learn from your mistakes you can do this.
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Old 06-06-2020, 10:07 AM   #19
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I PMed you with information on where the bus is currently located. I'd get on it quickly if I were you, because I have no knowledge of how long vehicles like that sit around in the yard before being scrapped. I do know that they're hoping to get whatever they can out of it. Don't be surprised if they make you pay for the parts in advance, and potentially a storage fee if they have to hold the parts.

I can tell you this - if you buy any parts, and you let me know that you did, I will pick them up and bring them to my garage so that you won't have to pay storage fees. I have enough room to store what you mentioned. I don't know how I could help you with transporting the bumper, but I'd be willing to exercise whatever creativity I could muster. What type of vehicle would you be using to transport everything?
That's awesome and thanks for the storage offer. I'll give them a call on Monday and see what they want for various things. I have an SUV that I'm pretty sure the bumper would fit in, need to measure it. It's a six-hour drive each way for me, but everything I listed together would probably be enough to justify a special trip if their prices are reasonable enough.
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:16 AM   #20
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What the hell is the exhaust doing getting up to that hot under the hood? Seriously, isn't that extremely dangerous even without stuff leaking onto the exhaust? Is this just a thing with diesel engines?



Does that mean this happened to you?

I would wonder why I saw and smelled nothing after I stopped at Home Depot. That's several miles from my house and by then everything would've been up to full operating temperature.



Okay, I can see that. But as I stated above, why did I see and smell nothing when I stopped at Home Depot after driving several miles at speeds up to 55 mph? I'd think that any such thing, if it were the cause of the fire, would have generated at least some smoke within the first few miles.

And I saw and smelled nothing prior to the dash lights starting to act funny. In retrospect, I wonder if I should have popped the hood and tried to put the fire out with the on-board fire extinguisher... but I guess you could say that my "conditioning" kicked in and I thought of nothing but getting away. I don't think my wife and kids would've found it to be adequate compensation for my life if they were told that I died because I tried to be heroic and put out the fire myself.
I have read enough of this thread to suggest that whatever vehicle you get next. You get more mechanically educated about -- you simply can't look to prevent future incidents without knowing what you're looking at...

Gasoline has a much lower flashpoint than diesel so is inherently more dangerous.

Any turbo-exhaust will run over 1000°F on the hwy -- my ol Saab 9000 -- nothing special -- lift the hood on a dark night after driving, the turbo will be glowing orange! This is normal...

People piss and moan about gov interference... There IS a reason why so many states have mandated annual vehicle safety inspections...

NEVER engage a fire you are not comfortable engaging!
Learn about fire extinguisher use and limitations...
Don't EVER belittle yourself for being safe!

Worn wiring leading to a short circuit is more than hot enough to start a fire --this is basically how arc-welding works -- it's just a controlled short circuit!

ALL these buses were engineered to be safe when built and be used as school buses for what 10 to 15 years at most... and be scrapped afterwards...

We've decided to extend their useful life -- it's on us to ensure they are safe...
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