Should I buy this bus?

[Ronigbzjr]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

yes the emissions are lower on the later versions but the costs and issues are generally higher.. if being green is the object here, a diesel school bus likely isnt going to fit..

Nah, being green is far down my list of priorities. I mean it's good, but right now I need a durable workhorse, emissions or not.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

the one you are asking about is 2008 which has a DPF filter but NOT DEF. . navistar (and others) attempted to "burn off" the soot collected into the DPF filter at High temperature which theoretically is cleaner than just letting the engine burn it.. that is a Regen cycle.. failures in regen cycles ended up in clogged DPF filters and the expense of having them cleaned out.. (that generated tattletales in the computer)..

Yeah I read about the Regen cycle... It sounds okay but the only thing that bothered me is that is starts automatically? A guy in the video I saw warned against having Regen starting automatically while the bus is not ready for it which might cause even more damage? I don't know. If this Regen cycle is something that can be done manually, or if I can somehow extract the DPF and clean it manually myself, I'll even do it every week if I have to lol just to keep the engine working good.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Yes generally I recommend changing the oil more often in these engines.. and running out on the road fully warming up and using them at highway speeds results in much better performance of the DPF than using it cold or running it around the city constantly..

You got it. I'm going to treat this thing like my baby. I'm gonna have to anyway, it's going to be my home, my office, my studio and my ticket to freedom for the next couple of years. I don't plan on running it around the city too often. Running out on the road fully warmed up also sounds more than feasible... I'll simply have to give it 5-10 mins after every start before I hit the road?

Originally Posted by cadillackid

as for pros and cons.. the BEST bus (reliability-wise) will be something pre 2008.. next would be the 2008-2010 and finally the 2010+. the 2010+ with DEF introduces yet more complexity.. which was new injection system , dual sequential turbos, and a DEF system..

the people running school busses on routes state that the 2010+ Maxxforcd DTs had many more expensive issues than the pre 2008 (DT466E) and the 2008-2010.. thats where I come up with a lot of my info.
.
I cant say whether the bus for sale is a good one or not (partly depends on price.. if its a nice rust free unit and is cheap then there is room to put some $$ into the engine if it requires repairs (EGR cooler, oil cooler, DPF service).. if the price is already way up there then there is less room to still be reasonable if you have to put a few grand into the engine..

Yeah gotcha. Well I'll look for other options definitely. In any case the price for this one is 6.3k, what do you think?

Originally Posted by cadillackid

your desires, requirements, and mechanical aptitude should also play into what bus you buy.. if you need to pay a shop to do most work on your bus then by all means look for something older and more simple.. as repairs generally cost less (takes mechanics less time and parts cost less).. ie pre-2004. if replacing parts is no issue then you can often score a newer bus for lower price (because no one else wants it) and things that break you fix and save $$ doing it..

this is obviously a balancing act.. between $$, reliability, time, and quality.. if money were no object everyone here could go buy a brand new bus with no rust, everything works, long warranty, and gobs of power...

That's actually an important point you've touched upon, which I've been pondering. I'm not a mechanic, and I know very little about engines, BUT I'm a very handy guy, and I work a lot with my hands. I come from a family of professional craftsmen, and during my life I've done work with clay, wood, metal and all sorts of materials, I have also learned to weld recently. I've renovated this entire apartment all by myself which included breaking and rebuilding dry walls, re-routing plumbing and sewage, laying down floors and wall ceramic panels... I paid a professional to do the electricity, but I also know quite a bit about that - learned about it in high school and built several robotics projects. I've also worked in theater set building, sown my own jackets, and I'm a professional pianist.

All this is to say that if there's anything I'm confident about in my life, it is my ability to understand how things work, and operate my hands with a very wide range of motorics anywhere from gentle touches to brute force. I'm also planning to build a small workshop on the bus, equipped with at least a good hand saw for wood and metal and a welder.

So, I plan on being as self reliant as possible. As I said I'm not a mechanic but I'm very confident in my ability to pick it up, maybe work with a professional mechanic a few times, break apart whatever engine I get and rebuild it just so I can know every part of it. I've even downloaded this simulator game for Steam called Bus Mechanic (haven't played it yet, waiting for more RAM on my laptop). So you get the idea, I wanna go to a shop only when I really really need to, and I don't mind spending as much time as necessary to become as self reliant as I possibly can dealing with engine problems.

[Bus'n it]

I think in five years the consensus will be to accept EGR and DPF but avoid the SCR engined buses! We are in a window of opportunity right now but things will change and our choices will be limited. Someone on the FB page was asking about the maxxforce engine bus they were looking to buy. They seemed to be interested in price over reasoning from the folks that were telling her to stay away from it. What may be a great price for a newer bus at 3k may end up costing you 10x that in repairs. Those repairs will rear their ugly heads only after you finished polishing off the water mark on your completed interior's countertop getting ready for your first long distance drive to Alaska! (Damn, that was some long ass sentence right there!)

[BeNimble]

"Move into it right away" Do you have a place right away to park it and work on it?
If you insist on a school bus above all other considerations, I suggest an older one with a gas engine.

[johnbloem1974]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

P.S.



my opinion of the Maxxforce DT 2008 might change if I blow the one up im taking on a 400 mile roadtrip tomorrow

Wait. What?? Would love to hear the details!! Let us know how it went!!!

John

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by Bus'n it

I think in five years the consensus will be to accept EGR and DPF but avoid the SCR engined buses! We are in a window of opportunity right now but things will change and our choices will be limited.

I, for one, would rather swap such a POS out for a GM Vortec 8.1 V8 / Ford Triton 6.8 V10 gas power. Only use for an '07-up diesel-powered vehicle IMO... However, consider that most of us won't be driving our rigs much, so with the exception of the VT365 and MaxxFarce offerings, these newer ones might not be so bad for limited use and travel.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Ronigbzjr

Nah, being green is far down my list of priorities. I mean it's good, but right now I need a durable workhorse, emissions or not.



Yeah I read about the Regen cycle... It sounds okay but the only thing that bothered me is that is starts automatically? A guy in the video I saw warned against having Regen starting automatically while the bus is not ready for it which might cause even more damage? I don't know. If this Regen cycle is something that can be done manually, or if I can somehow extract the DPF and clean it manually myself, I'll even do it every week if I have to lol just to keep the engine working good.



You got it. I'm going to treat this thing like my baby. I'm gonna have to anyway, it's going to be my home, my office, my studio and my ticket to freedom for the next couple of years. I don't plan on running it around the city too often. Running out on the road fully warmed up also sounds more than feasible... I'll simply have to give it 5-10 mins after every start before I hit the road?



Yeah gotcha. Well I'll look for other options definitely. In any case the price for this one is 6.3k, what do you think?



That's actually an important point you've touched upon, which I've been pondering. I'm not a mechanic, and I know very little about engines, BUT I'm a very handy guy, and I work a lot with my hands. I come from a family of professional craftsmen, and during my life I've done work with clay, wood, metal and all sorts of materials, I have also learned to weld recently. I've renovated this entire apartment all by myself which included breaking and rebuilding dry walls, re-routing plumbing and sewage, laying down floors and wall ceramic panels... I paid a professional to do the electricity, but I also know quite a bit about that - learned about it in high school and built several robotics projects. I've also worked in theater set building, sown my own jackets, and I'm a professional pianist.

All this is to say that if there's anything I'm confident about in my life, it is my ability to understand how things work, and operate my hands with a very wide range of motorics anywhere from gentle touches to brute force. I'm also planning to build a small workshop on the bus, equipped with at least a good hand saw for wood and metal and a welder.

So, I plan on being as self reliant as possible. As I said I'm not a mechanic but I'm very confident in my ability to pick it up, maybe work with a professional mechanic a few times, break apart whatever engine I get and rebuild it just so I can know every part of it. I've even downloaded this simulator game for Steam called Bus Mechanic (haven't played it yet, waiting for more RAM on my laptop). So you get the idea, I wanna go to a shop only when I really really need to, and I don't mind spending as much time as necessary to become as self reliant as I possibly can dealing with engine problems.

thats how ive learned!! by doing it.. and yers ive Foo-Bared some things up before too.. Carnage in the hot-rod world is a somewhat normal (and acceptable) thing.. but nevertheless I rebuilt my first diesel engine when I was 20 years old.. i loved the little car to death and had no means to pay a shop the ($3k in 1989) to rebuild it.. so I went to the library and got some books and started reading.. in 1989 the WWW was just in Beta testing running SLIP connections over dialup and winsock..



anyway I got it back together and it ran pretty good.. it wasnt perfect but I did it.. without a 4 year degree in ASE mechanics..



Knowledge is power.. whichever engine / bus you decide on.. learning it and how it works is huge.. and also learning to spot when things change.. driving it all over you'll learn a keen ear, eye, and nose to change.. "Hmm thats wierd.. I never noticed that sound before".. sounds like thats what you are good at.. i think you'll do fine.



I do suggest acquiring a tablet and at least a Bluefire (if not a laptop and a Nexiq Clone) and software to be able to read out the computer.. ther computer can help with diagnosing any issue that might arise..


Cheese_wagon's pre trip checklist (I seriously hope someone made that thread a sticky).. is thorough and well thought-out .. something to print out and keep in the bus.. part of it you do cold. the other part you do with your engine running and warming up...


Regen usually happens automatically while you drive and doesnt require shutting the bus down or parkign to do it.. long trips where the engine is fully warmed up is when an auto regen will normally occur.. if you take too many short trips then the computer may do a required parked regen..



depending on options enabled on your dash you may have a regen dash switch or can be invoked through the LCD.. you normally dont have to invoke (and dont want to) one unless the computer tells you or you have been doing a lot of short in-town trips (ie like school busses did).. one of the advantages of a bus in arizona is it most likely always got warmed up fully even on a school route.. not many days where you would have all the heaters on dragging the engine temp down during stop N go.. so it probably has spent most of its life at normal operating temp..



I dont know the rest of its specs.. however at $6.3k to me it would be appropriate to ask the dealer if the DPF has been checked and / or serviced..



AAA is a reputable company and remember busses are negotaible like used cars.. haggle the price.. or get services worked in.. ie you pay 6.3k but they service the DPF and chasnge the oil.. or filters, etc.. you feel them out..

-Christopher

[Ronigbzjr]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

thats how ive learned!! by doing it.. and yers ive Foo-Bared some things up before too.. Carnage in the hot-rod world is a somewhat normal (and acceptable) thing.. but nevertheless I rebuilt my first diesel engine when I was 20 years old.. i loved the little car to death and had no means to pay a shop the ($3k in 1989) to rebuild it.. so I went to the library and got some books and started reading.. in 1989 the WWW was just in Beta testing running SLIP connections over dialup and winsock....

So much valuable information in your response, Christopher, thank you. I never thought connecting a tablet or a different monitor to the engine would be an option, that's definitely a necessity.

The original price they told me was 8k, but after speaking with Joe a bit he said that because the engine is what it is (i.e. less popular with skoolies) and because it's apparently been standing there for a while, the owner is willing to lower down the price to 6.3k. What you suggested is a good idea, maybe keeping the price as it is but asking them to perform extra services like checking the DPF. I might do that.

Here are the specs and link to pictures from AAA's website.

Year: 2008
Make/Model: International RE3000
Seating Capacity: 32 Passenger
Engine: 7.6L MaxxForce DT466e Diesel
Transmission: Allison MD3060 Auto
Mileage: 91,725mi

https://www.aaabussales.com/10925.html

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by johnbloem1974

Wait. What?? Would love to hear the details!! Let us know how it went!!!

John

no issues with the MaxxForce DT.. turns out the bus is a 2010 with a 2009 engine so its Pre redesign.. still is the HEUI variant with single VGT turbo..



255HP (OK WAS 255 HP.... ).. doing a visual it appears its EGR coolers and oil Cooler were replaced not long ago.. Nice n shiny.. has the later allison MD3060. no smoke, no issues, no complaints.. and she Haul's ass.. I didnt drive that unit, my buddy did.. I drove an HDX thomas with a Cat C7 that also had no issues.. its rated 250HP .. so we held 65 easily without thinking about it until the crazy never-ending rains slowed us down to 55..



-Christopher

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by Ronigbzjr

So much valuable information in your response, Christopher, thank you. I never thought connecting a tablet or a different monitor to the engine would be an option, that's definitely a necessity.

The original price they told me was 8k, but after speaking with Joe a bit he said that because the engine is what it is (i.e. less popular with skoolies) and because it's apparently been standing there for a while, the owner is willing to lower down the price to 6.3k. What you suggested is a good idea, maybe keeping the price as it is but asking them to perform extra services like checking the DPF. I might do that.

Here are the specs and link to pictures from AAA's website.

Year: 2008
Make/Model: International RE3000
Seating Capacity: 32 Passenger
Engine: 7.6L MaxxForce DT466e Diesel
Transmission: Allison MD3060 Auto
Mileage: 91,725mi

https://www.aaabussales.com/10925.html

nice clean unit!! even has Air-conditioning.. looks liek separate alternator for the A/C.. and the large '31' series compressor.. almost looks like it's EGR cooler may have been replaced not to long ago...

[Ronigbzjr]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

nice clean unit!! even has Air-conditioning.. looks liek separate alternator for the A/C.. and the large '31' series compressor.. almost looks like it's EGR cooler may have been replaced not to long ago...

Cool, nice to hear a positive opinion for once also cadillackid's message above is encouraging.

Let me ask you this - would you rather purchase a bus pre-2008 but that has an engine like Cat 7 for example? The reason I wanted a DT is because they have very good reputation. The recommendations I got was try to go first for a DT or a Cummins engine, and only then to Cat.

After researching some more and also looking for other buses, I still think this is the best one for me that I've found so far. From my what I read the Maxxforce shouldn't be the end of the world as long as I maintain it properly. If I do end up buying it, I intend to rebuild it with the assistance of a professional mechanic so I can learn it well and know how to handle it on the road. I've seen online that DPF's filters can be cleaned manually every once in a while with water pressure wash, and that you can install a computer to connect to the engine and show you constant monitoring while you're on the road.

So, we'll see...

[cadillackid]

first off.. pre 2008 had no DPF filters.. so they were simpler.. the pre 2004 DT466 had no EGR, no EGR cooler, and a standard turbo. (not a VGT variable vane). so in essence the engines were more simple.. thus thought to break less. and be less expensive to repair..



that said.. any Diesel engine can last a long time.. even the Notorious Maxxforce 7 has a fair amount of them that went long lives before dying.. the maxxfroce DT has many more that lived long lives.. starting in 2010 the engines became even more complex..



onto your bus.. dont rebuild the engine just to rebuild it. if you suspect it has issues then take it someplace to be looked at (2 places) and get an estimate on its health.. it very well may be in ship shape condition.. (just like the one we drove 2 days ago.. theb us sold cheap because no one wanted the MFDT.. turns out its in fine shape and has had the problem parts replaced.. so we got a nice bus for a steal)..


the bus will have regen buttons on the dash.. you can call for a regen.. usualy if the filter is plugged up you'll notice performance loss and you'll notice it trying to regen very often.. and it may set codes related.. if none of that happens.. drive it and enjoy it!


while preventative maintenance is good.. tearing things down that arent broken and arent suspect often just incurs cost and effort for no reason..



to read the computer... you'll need a Nexiq device or Clone and the J1939 version of servicemaxx. (to do navistar diagnostics).. either the "unoffcial" version of it, or one boiught for $$$$ from navistar.. I chose the unofficial...


for a digital dash, a bluefire J1939 device seems to be the best option right now for reading out various parameters while going down the road.. you'll need the 9 pin and then a phone / tablet to display the data.. (iphone or android)...



-Christopher

[coolcraftnet18]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

I, for one, would rather swap such a POS out for a GM Vortec 8.1 V8 / Ford Triton 6.8 V10 gas power. Only use for an '07-up diesel-powered vehicle IMO... However, consider that most of us won't be driving our rigs much, so with the exception of the VT365 and MaxxFarce offerings, these newer ones might not be so bad for limited use and travel.

You could swap for a PSI 8.8L

[cadillackid]

I drive my rig all the time and I’ll gladly pick up a newer unit cheap and drive it forever since everyone else hates on them .. Friend got a 40 ft RE, air ride, AC, md3060 , webasto, almost no rust, good tires.. maxxforce DT with new EGR cooler and new oil cooler.. no codes, regen fine , drives perfect steers straight ... 1700 bucks.... only thing I could find wrong is a few of the windows don’t close right due to broken latches...

I get it cheese wagon is old school and doesn’t understand the new stuff perhaps but it’s not all rubbish either. Just has to be inspected in person rather than bought sight unseen at an auction

[demoman]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I drive my rig all the time and I’ll gladly pick up a newer unit cheap and drive it forever since everyone else hates on them .. Friend got a 40 ft RE, air ride, AC, md3060 , webasto, almost no rust, good tires.. maxxforce DT with new EGR cooler and new oil cooler.. no codes, regen fine , drives perfect steers straight ... 1700 bucks.... only thing I could find wrong is a few of the windows don’t close right due to broken latches...

I get it cheese wagon is old school and doesn’t understand the new stuff perhaps but it’s not all rubbish either. Just has to be inspected in person rather than bought sight unseen at an auction

This is a great option for someone who uses it as a bus and doesnt have a lot invested in a conversion. Also it helps to have extra buses so if one is down for maintenance you can just use another one. When people start to rely on a bus for transportation, shelter, work space etc. No matter how cheap it is may not make it worthwhile. Once you spend all the money on the conversion you feel locked in to putting good money after bad when expensive things go wrong.I personally would suggest an older purely mechanical engine bus with an allison (anything but 545) those ones would tend to be easier and cheaper for someone new to diesels to diagnose and repair.

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

I get it cheese wagon is old school and doesn’t understand the new stuff perhaps but it’s not all rubbish either. Just has to be inspected in person rather than bought sight unseen at an auction

No offense intended or taken, but when you've been stuck on the side of the road with DEF system issues multiple times or seen a DPF burn a brand-new truck to the ground, you tend to look at things differently.

[ol trunt]

I'd have to agree with CW. It isn't a matter of not understanding "new stuff". New stuff is fine --when it works and CW's observations are accurate though the systems must be becoming better as fewer burn up incidents are being reported. As I recall the Scandinavian company that built most of the early equipment went bankrupt over fire loss claims against it's product. When it works tree huggers rejoice. When it burns down the forest tree huggers take cover.

Personally I can deal with the nuances of the "new" smog S-it but I'd not recommend a new and most often mechanically crippled I'm going to convert a bus and live in it guy to step up to such a deal. Sure, in another ten years no worries but why subject (or recommend) oneself to the learning curve?
Jack

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by coolcraftnet18

You could swap for a PSI 8.8L

There's a 2021 on CoPart right now.

Originally Posted by ol trunt

I'd have to agree with CW. It isn't a matter of not understanding "new stuff". New stuff is fine --when it works and CW's observations are accurate though the systems must be becoming better as fewer burn up incidents are being reported.

At the yard of a carrier I drove for at the time, winter 2014/2015, a brand-new ProStar (still had the plastic over the seats and hadn't been company-lettered yet) burned to the ground within minutes of being started to keep the batteries charged on an 8-degree morning. Took two other rigs with it, and nearly claimed another one. Manufacturer determined it was primarily a DPF malfunction. There have been others.

Clogged DEF doser nozzles (quite common) will leave you sitting in a parking lot, unable to exceed 5-15 mph. Cost to repair can vary, but are generally a tow to a dealer to have the lion's share of the exhaust system dismantled, including a boiler used to heat the DEF. If you think it sounds pricey, you'd be on the right track.

[cadillackid]

Hmm yeah OK.. that’s fine but you all prob also slammed EFI when it first came out ..
Yep some trucks burned some emission stuff breaks..
IH and cat screwed their later stuff up bad.. nope I don’t recommend 2010+ maxxforce Stuff unless you are savvy..
but to just auto blanket everything as crap is ignorant.. esp when just like EFI it will soon be the only thing readily available..

A real savvy person can build their own mechanical rig from the ground up like ll trust but reality is most can’t do it. Most can learn how to hook a computer up and run a diagnostic and change a cracked EGR cooler..
yep right now pre 07 stuff is plentiful but won’t be for long esp once we swap presidents , the epa is poised to offer many more carbon credits for s hooks to replace pre 07 units which results in destruction of them. Not sold to skoolies but crushed. Even under current programs my city just destroyed 40 perfectly good busses to get new ones. They were DT466 mechanicals with MT643 trans. ( most).

Point being now is the time to learn and understand the newer stuff and which ones are hood and bad, and what goes bad so it can be identified when looking to buy..

Rarely did a maxxforce DT blow a bottom end a max force 7 from 07-09.5 ate pistons but they got better in later years on the 7.. nope not as good as a hood ole T444E but workable and with damn good power to pull hills and much better cooling system..

Last production year of that venerable 444e was 2004.. you find fewer and fewer for sale all the time..

The VT365 took its place.. yep it had issues esp if you didn’t maintain it.. but they are workable.. toss a few parts at it and they go 350k plus..

My point again being learn it and become educated beyond what you experienced 10 years ago once or heard at a truck stop where every war story is twice the reality.. I’m guessing most OTR guys probably had some type of breaks on their old mechanical rigs too at some point.

All machines break. Some more than others but grouping anything and everything in one lump bucket of crap is ignorant..
I aim to educate on here not just tell people everything old is good and everything new is crap.. sounds as bad as my grandparents when I was a kid.. all I ever heard .. I made a life of “new stuff” learning it and embracing it( and which does truly suck).. yep and some old stuff sucks ..

Carry on, I’ll keep my new-stuff re engineering and knowledge off of here ..

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by ol trunt

CW's observations are accurate though the systems must be becoming better as fewer burn up incidents are being reported.

Likely because the DPF fires and engine failures have sent most of them to the junkyard.

Originally Posted by cadillackid

Hmm yeah OK.. that’s fine but you all prob also slammed EFI when it first came out ..
Yep some trucks burned some emission stuff breaks..
IH and cat screwed their later stuff up bad.. nope I don’t recommend 2010+ maxxforce Stuff unless you are savvy..

A real savvy person can build their own mechanical rig from the ground up like ll trust but reality is most can’t do it. Most can learn how to hook a computer up and run a diagnostic and change a cracked EGR cooler..

Rarely did a maxxforce DT blow a bottom end a max force 7 from 07-09.5 ate pistons but they got better in later years on the 7.. nope not as good as a hood ole T444E but workable and with damn good power to pull hills and much better cooling system..

Last production year of that venerable 444e was 2004.. you find fewer and fewer for sale all the time..

The VT365 took its place.. yep it had issues esp if you didn’t maintain it.. but they are workable.. toss a few parts at it and they go 350k plus..

My point again being learn it and become educated beyond what you experienced 10 years ago once or heard at a truck stop where every war story is twice the reality.. I’m guessing most OTR guys probably had some type of breaks on their old mechanical rigs too at some point.

All machines break. Some more than others but grouping anything and everything in one lump bucket of crap is ignorant..
I aim to educate on here not just tell people everything old is good and everything new is crap.. sounds as bad as my grandparents when I was a kid.. all I ever heard .. I made a life of “new stuff” learning it and embracing it( and which does truly suck).. yep and some old stuff sucks ..

Carry on, I’ll keep my new-stuff re engineering and knowledge off of here ..

I like EFI when it makes sense. TBI, MPFI, sure. GM's CPI / CSFI, PlastiCrap. Honda's Earth Dreams? MegaCrap.

"Toss a few parts at it"... That's exactly my point. That proves it is not reliable from the factory. Everything you said proves my point. You didn't see these failures with their predecessors. You're right, everything breaks, CK. It's a question of what breaks sooner, more catastrophically, and more often. And this newer stuff has failures that are simply not within reason.

What I heard at a truck stop? Experienced once, 10 years ago? Hardly. I have 400,000+ miles across 48 states as a professional driver from 2013-2017 (recent enough for you?) as well as quite a few weeks' worth of picking diesel mechanics' brains when my rig was down for repairs. And the only emission equipped diesel I'll trust is a Detroit DD-series, that should tell you something. Oldest truck I've driven was a 1995 Volvo with a Detroit 60 - for about three days. One truck, out of at least two dozen that ranged from 2010-2016 models.

Guess which ones kept me in the shop the most? While I sat there for hours waiting for a diagnosis or DEF doser nozzle replacement, I saw non-emission truck after non-emission truck brought in for a simple 30-minute oil change, thump the tires, and it's off to the races again. Fifteen such occurrences in the entire day it took to rip apart my DEF system for repair, and fifteen more the following day it took to repair and reassemble. I was down for five days for DPF replacement once.

I drove ONE MaxxFarce that was reliable, because it was practically brand-new. At one year old, it had just 35k, due to a fuel line sequencing issue. Took a couple months of me driving it to figure out what the mechanics couldn't. Aside from that MaxxFarce and the DD-powered Freightliners I drove (15+), everything else I drove stayed in the shop. Navistar and Volvo were the absolute bottom of the barrel for reliability once they got some miles on them. I wouldn't have a MaxxFarce or Volvo if it was given to me.

I wasn't all that impressed with the Cummins ISX either. Even the Paccar MX-10 I drove was towed to a dealer at least three times in the seven months I drove it, all for DEF and other emission issues. So keep your new stuff if you like, if it works for you -- let me know what it's like beyond 250k-350k. I didn't manage 400,000+ miles in my short career without learning or knowing something. There is a reason MaxxForce engines are being dumped with less than 80k miles and 10k hours. The same reason Navistar stopped building MaxxForce series, and the same reason Navistar is now starting to push gasoline power.

And yes, the VT365 is so workable that Ford was sued over them and forced to buy them back, prompting their replacements. Ford's current 6.7L is not a NaviStar engine -- that should tell you something as well. Food for thought, OldsmoDiesel owners claim its reputation for failures were ultimately shown to be the result of improper owner care and operation, but I still wouldn't own one. Would you?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, expecting a different result. You educate others on how to keep junk going, I educate others on why to avoid junk. Defending junk, THAT'S ignorant. Who wants to spend $30k building a skoolie, only to spend $180 an hour on dealer labor for this kind of crap? That really makes it an RV, which stands for Ruins Vacations.

BTW, you should treat your elders with more respect, young man... They didn't get old, being stupid. They learned through their experience, which is the best teacher, and which I have plenty of.

[cadillackid]

I did own an Oldsmobile diesel actually it was a Cadillac, same car same engine.. didn’t buy it new. It was given to me, I fixed what was wrong and drove it for a few years til I sold it.. had a nice luxurious plush ride.. oh yeah I coulda drove a VW diesel that was more reliable.. I’d have had to pay fir that car.. had no AC no power steering no sunroof , had to shift , bleh.. that Cafu served me well..

Actually did you know the VT 365 was not the same as the Ford?? Ford tried to soup em up run em higher rev and more HP.. more than the engine design.. yep it had some issues.. thank you aftermarket I’d gladly buy one bulletproof it and drive it forever..
quite possibly for cheaper because no one wants it. While everyone fights and runs the prices up on the old stuff I’ll simply buy the newer truck cheap put a little in it upfront abs drive it..

You can shun it all you want but soon it’s all there will be as the older stuff goes away... you either learn it or get left behind..

I doubt older engines are more reliable I don’t doubt it I never did if you TBI k I do then you need to read again but my point again is they are going away and the ones that remain are skyrocketing in price. So do you buy a rusty ole bus for a high price because it’s hot a great engine ( abs a crappy 545 trans) or do you buy a newer less rusty bus with a great trans and put a couple grand in the motor upfront to have a solid runner?

I’ve got 4 busses in the Pre emissions category. 2 I drive all the time. Both have great engines zero issues over more miles than most skoolies will put on in 10 years.. both required transmission replacements .. they were 545s..

So you’ll say “ buy an older bus with a great transmission” now you limit the number of available busses to fewer which means in general up go the prices...

All I’m saying is weigh it out as it just might make sense to bulletproof a newer motor upfront on a bus had cheaper where other components like steering, suspension, rust.. ( more likely to include niceties like AC air-ride etc)