Should I buy this bus?

[CHEESE_WAGON]

You neglected to mention the similarly souped-up Ford versions of the T444 did NOT have the failures that the souped-up Ford versions of the VT365 did. Again proving my point.

And AT545s can be swapped for MT643s or better. It's done all the time. A nice, newer bus might be nice to have, but replacing a rusty floor is a one-time fix, doesn't require towing, doesn't require a dealership, and doesn't require overly special equipment.

Show of hands, who here wants their bus in the shop at a dealership with a technician hurling terms at them they've never heard of, for $180 an hour plus parts, after paying a $900-$1000 tow bill to get it there? Go ahead, price a DPF filter or DEF doser nozzle replacement -- I'll wait... And add $1000 for a tow bill and $200-$300 for hotel rooms and food while you're at it... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and seen the repair bill. Building and owning a skoolie is expense enough without that factor.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

You neglected to mention the similarly souped-up Ford versions of the T444 did NOT have the failures that the souped-up Ford versions of the VT365 did. Again proving my point.

And AT545s can be swapped for MT643s or better. It's done all the time. A nice, newer bus might be nice to have, but replacing a rusty floor is a one-time fix, doesn't require towing, doesn't require a dealership, and doesn't require overly special equipment.

Show of hands, who here wants their bus in the shop at a dealership with a technician hurling terms at them they've never heard of, for $180 an hour plus parts, after paying a $900-$1000 tow bill to get it there? Go ahead, price a DPF filter or DEF doser nozzle replacement -- I'll wait... And add $1000 for a tow bill and $200-$300 for hotel rooms and food while you're at it... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and seen the repair bill.

you make my point perfectly to LEARN aboiut said bus and its engine so you dont have to end up with strange greasy guys hurling stranging looking pieces at it.. you;ll know what they are doing or god forbid someone turn a wrench on a newer engine like they do on an older one..



I never disputed the fact the older engines are better but once again you ignore the fact they are going away and cost more than ever to buy.. ive known quite a few people to bulletproof a 6.0 to never touch it again.. (not to mention the 5R110 runs circles around the 4R100 or E4OD in the ford transmission realm.. kind of like the allison 2000 / 3000 does around the AT545 or even the MT643..



its simply broaden the horizons is all..

yep for now the holy grail 8.3 cummins with a MD3060 out west can still be found.. but fewer and fewer of them show up each year at auction.. or someone half asses a conversion then comes here and offers it for $40,000 ...



you'll never get it.. i get it.. sorry i ever entered this thread to perhaps enlighten people to the fact that newer engines can be learned and made to run nicely..



***

so here is a challenge.. go out and find me a SHORTY conventional 2007-2009 Maxxforce DT with A/C and a webasto for Cheap..as long as its not so rusty it cant pass inspection, its an experiment bus.. i'll buy it, make it my Dev bus, bulletproof it and drive it all over.. it will either blow up and prove your point that new engines are complete rubbish or I'll have a nice ride to run the country in... and a way to educate tjhose down the line..

its a real challenge...



remember a buddy and i just walked out the door with a 2010 (2009 engine). 40 ft air-conditioned, air-ride RE, Maxxforce DT, MD3060, Webasto, minimal rust for $1750....... unfortunately I cant use his for the experiment because a 40 footer wont fit where I drive and that one wont see much seat time other than short runs for a year or more..

***

[coolcraftnet18]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

There's a 2021 on CoPart right now.


At the yard of a carrier I drove for at the time, winter 2014/2015, a brand-new ProStar (still had the plastic over the seats and hadn't been company-lettered yet) burned to the ground within minutes of being started to keep the batteries charged on an 8-degree morning. Took two other rigs with it, and nearly claimed another one. Manufacturer determined it was primarily a DPF malfunction. There have been others.

Clogged DEF doser nozzles (quite common) will leave you sitting in a parking lot, unable to exceed 5-15 mph. Cost to repair can vary, but are generally a tow to a dealer to have the lion's share of the exhaust system dismantled, including a boiler used to heat the DEF. If you think it sounds pricey, you'd be on the right track.

Bypass the speed sensor

[CHEESE_WAGON]

You forget that I've driven quite a few MaxxFarce of that exact vintage. The newest one was a 2013, the rest were 2007-2009. The 2007-2009s stayed in the shop, the 2013 didn't have enough miles to be a problem, though it still managed to be. The best engine is one you don't have to modify just to get it to run right, or can modified for more power without creating problems. Show me Maxxforce you can do either with. Now THERE'S a REAL challenge.


CK, I have asthma, do you really think I tell people this for the hell of it, knowing non emission diesels exacerbate conditions like mine? No, I tell them this because I know a $5000 DPF replacement can financially ruin someone who's already dumped $30,000 into a $5000 bus.

[coolcraftnet18]

We just have to wait fot the gasoline buses to get old, gasoline for the win!

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by coolcraftnet18

We just have to wait fot the gasoline buses to get old, gasoline for the win!

Agreed, but that will be much longer because they'll actually WANT to keep those. I was still riding a 66-72 style Chevrolet gasser my high school senior year (1994). Last one they auctioned off was in 2000, and one still sits at the garage to this day.

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

You forget that I've driven quite a few MaxxFarce of that exact vintage. The newest one was a 2013, the rest were 2007-2009. The 2007-2009s stayed in the shop, the 2013 didn't have enough miles to be a problem, though it still managed to be. The best engine is one you don't have to modify just to get it to run right, or can modified for more power without creating problems. Show me Maxxforce you can do either with. Now THERE'S a REAL challenge.


CK, I have asthma, do you really think I tell people this for the hell of it, knowing non emission diesels exacerbate conditions like mine? No, I tell them this because I know a $5000 DPF replacement can financially ruin someone who's already dumped $30,000 into a $5000 bus.

werent you a class-8? the Maxxfroce DT and the class-8 Maxxforce are 2 totally different animals.. the ones navistar got sued over were the Class-8 maxxfroce engines.. im not sure i'd even touch one of those.. they werent the 7.6 litre used in school busses.. now the Maxxfroce 7 (6.4) is a different story.. the 07.5-09.5 were terrible due to piston issues.. (the whole time ford used them).. Navistar fixed that one.. in fact the ford guys rebuilding broken 6.4's put Maxxforce 7 pistons in them..

[coolcraftnet18]

Imagine a skoolie with a lion bus

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

Agreed, but that will be much longer because they'll actually WANT to keep those. I was still riding a 66-72 style Chevrolet gasser my high school senior year (1994). Last one they auctioned off was in 2000, and one still sits at the garage to this day.

the Bodies on the new gasoline busses will fall apart long before the drivetrains give up..



Bluebird cant hardly get a bus out of the factory that doesnt rain on the driver the first storm they go through.. I see 2015+ IC busses already rusting way more than they ever should..



the busses they are making today are not busses we will wish on ANYONE in 10 years! unless maybe they came from the desert states..

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by coolcraftnet18

Imagine a skoolie with a lion bus

ive seen some diesel lions come up for sale at times.. I heard marion City (ohio) through the grapevine will be sending theirs in a year or two..

[cadillackid]

Originally Posted by CHEESE_WAGON

You neglected to mention the similarly souped-up Ford versions of the T444 did NOT have the failures that the souped-up Ford versions of the VT365 did. Again proving my point.

And AT545s can be swapped for MT643s or better. It's done all the time. A nice, newer bus might be nice to have, but replacing a rusty floor is a one-time fix, doesn't require towing, doesn't require a dealership, and doesn't require overly special equipment.

Show of hands, who here wants their bus in the shop at a dealership with a technician hurling terms at them they've never heard of, for $180 an hour plus parts, after paying a $900-$1000 tow bill to get it there? Go ahead, price a DPF filter or DEF doser nozzle replacement -- I'll wait... And add $1000 for a tow bill and $200-$300 for hotel rooms and food while you're at it... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt and seen the repair bill. Building and owning a skoolie is expense enough without that factor.

ford never souped the 7.3 up from the factory... navistar offered a variant up to 250 HP at 2300 RPM.. ford used a different head gasket and allowed it to spin up to 3200 RPM . i think maxx horsepower was 250-275 in the later years at 2700 RPM.. i dont have the ford chart in front of me.. no Doubt the 7.3 (444E) is a venerable engine.. but they are getting harder to find.. if you are looking for a ford truck what you find in 7.3's for sale are beat to hell cabs that smell like beer cigarettes and man-butt , or guys that want $25,000 for them if they are clean.... the 6.0's are starting to go up in price simply because the 6.4 is in fact a no-go unless you pull the engine for a full rebuild.. and the aftermarket got it right with the 6.0, no tuner and you just need aftermarket oil cooler and EGR delete.. (mini-bulletproof).. tuner then you need to add head-studs..



for what some of the guys are selling their clean 7.3 trucks for i can buy a fully REBUILT AND BULLETPROOFED 6.0 TRUCK including reman engine, front end, brakes, tires, etc... true runner.. just because of the stigma

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Now wait a minute... I distinctly remember it being said that the Ford 7.3 had different internals (in addition to the head gasket) to facilitate the higher RPM. Was that you? Because I can't see a head gasket making that kind of difference by itself.

[cadillackid]

Not internals .. internals are different on a low torque vs high torque DT466E ( navistar part numbers are different I’ve never actually measured the parts)

Turbo and head gasket and cam are different on 7.3, cam only on the super duty ford as it got Electric fuel pump where IH kept mechanical .. , ford made more boost at high RPM so they used a wastegate turbo.. IH used a smaller wastegate turbo on the high torque 444e to facilitate more boost at low rpm and keep EGT in check. The later 444e all got the gated turbo (same as the fords had all along ).. I’ve never measured the cam profile on Ford vs IH so I can’t say if it’s different beyond the fuel pump lobe .

Ford had a thicker head gasket to allow for higher RPM and keep boost under control ..

Ford had consumer horsepower wars to win IH built for longevity ..

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by cadillackid

werent you a class-8? the Maxxfroce DT and the class-8 Maxxforce are 2 totally different animals.. the ones navistar got sued over were the Class-8 maxxfroce engines.. im not sure i'd even touch one of those...

You are correct in that Navistar was sued for the Class 8 engines. Ford was sued for the 6.0 aka VT365... and had to buy them all back.

[cadillackid]

In my opinion part of the issues occur when consumers get involved ..

Horsepower wars get manufacturers running engines close to their brink stock .. == more likely to break

Consumer overheats a 7.3 and you fix the issue and drive on
Consumer severely overheats a 6.0 and you throw the block on the scrap heap..

Engines in a professional world you hope are in better hands.. you as a pro driver know if the temp gauge climbs past where you’ve known it to ride for years you take notice and mitigation steps / shut down..

consumer in a pickup that never had a diesel (oh it’s only 240 my ole Chevy 350 never got phased I’ll drive home)..

[cadillackid]

Back to the OP question
Should you buy this bus?

Cheese wagon says no way in hell
I say inspect it and if it checks out take it

[joeblack5]

I would not be to worried about any engine as long as it runs good when you buy it.
It is just a matter of price ,availability and what to expect. If I would by a good running vt365 I would just not run it that hard and stay away from the redlines. That is what I do with any of my 20 yr old vehicles. You drive them to keep them alive. ..not see if you can break them.
If it still runs good with 150000 miles on the engine then no real reason why it would crap out in the next with the miles the average skoolies is going to put on it...
Another thing is that buying a 20 yr old vehicle without having basic vehicle knowledge and repair experience is just asking for ( getting experience the expensive way) problems.

Johan

[Kubla]

Test drive it, see if you can get maintenance records on it, and get a computer read out. Regen works fine as long as you are going to take a long drive at speed every so often, if you just putt around the city like on a school bus route, it will never get hot enough to work.

Have you checked out any of the auctions on govdeals.com, public surplus.com or purposes.com?

[CHEESE_WAGON]

Originally Posted by joeblack5

I would not be to worried about any engine as long as it runs good when you buy it.

Johan

Flawed logic. Bought a 43k original mile Olds from the original owner. Ran good. Three weeks later the intake gaskets blew and destroyed the engine.

[cadillackid]

So let’s put this to rest . Someone go find me the bus I mentioned above , I’ll check k it out and if it checks I’ll buy it and drive it and put this maxxforce stuff to rest..

Real world real life real data real test..

Just find me the bus