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Old 12-30-2019, 07:16 PM   #21
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Okay I see the noise argument but my two scenarios regarding climate control?
I believe scenario 2 has better thermodynamics

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Old 12-30-2019, 07:58 PM   #22
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Okay I see the noise argument but my two scenarios regarding climate control?
I believe scenario 2 has better thermodynamics
Scenario 2 is what I'm going with personally in my bus when I finally reach that point. I may also add sound or heat matting from LMC truck around the back of the bus. For a headliner I'm considering cardboard sealed with epoxy and covered in vinyl.
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:22 PM   #23
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Okay I see the noise argument but my two scenarios regarding climate control?
I believe scenario 2 has better thermodynamics
How tall are you? That's one of the main criteria on choosing which method to use.
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:34 PM   #24
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Scenario 2 is what I'm going with personally in my bus when I finally reach that point. I may also add sound or heat matting from LMC truck around the back of the bus. For a headliner I'm considering cardboard sealed with epoxy and covered in vinyl.
Good to hear.
Are you choosing scenario 2 for thermodynamic reasons or other reasons?
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:36 PM   #25
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How tall are you? That's one of the main criteria on choosing which method to use.
With a six foot 5 in clearance all the way up and down the center it's a non-issue.
Otherwise I would have mentioned it.
My only concern is efficiency of insulation
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:44 PM   #26
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Good to hear.
Are you choosing scenario 2 for thermodynamic reasons or other reasons?
Thermodynamics and weight reduction while maintaining headroom. I'm shedding the ceiling and inner walls, perhaps most of the windows.
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Old 12-30-2019, 09:08 PM   #27
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With a six foot 5 in clearance all the way up and down the center it's a non-issue.
Otherwise I would have mentioned it.
My only concern is efficiency of insulation
It's more than just not hitting your head in the center. If you add 2-3" on your ceiling and then another 2-3" on the floor you are now at 6'. What are you doing with all the windows while you consider efficiency of insulation.
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Old 01-01-2020, 07:18 PM   #28
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Good job going to the source!
Was the 20ga for a specific model or universally what Thomas uses in all their buses?

Does the same model bus use the same gauge non-perf steel if you don't order it with the "acoustical steel panel" ?

Yeah, I'm probing at the earlier discussions of "how strong is strong enough"
and will the sky fall in when you remove the inner ceiling panels...

Cute...


What difference does it make if it is a different gauge? The sky is not going to fall in even if you turn it into a convertible.
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:20 PM   #29
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I am not in any way an expert....buuuut how much strength is the interior sheet metal adding to the structure? Its the ribs and connections to the frame that are adding rigidity. Right?

Maybe I missed something from this thread LOL


The connections to the frame are merely holding the body in place.


The roof provides "stiffness" and "rigidity", the ribs provide support for the roof and transfer loads in a rollover. All of the convertibles that I have owned, had different frames than their counterparts and torqued much easier. Think about it, if you remove the roof then the vertical ribs do nothing except keep the sides from bending over. The "rub rails" are actually horizontal ribs to keep the walls from bending sideways.


I had a sheet metal shop for about 10 years and worked in other peoples shops as well. I've built a lot more junk out of sheet metal (mostly steel or aluminum, some tern, and a very little copper) than most of the experts in this forum and it is my opinion that if you roll your bus you will be glad if that metal ceiling is still in place. If you don't roll your bus then you will never need the extra strength unless you hang stuff from it or attach magnets to the steel, or just want the comfort of knowing that you have provided the most protection in an RV that you can for your family (short of a tank).


My opinion aside you should realize that as it is it is a highly engineered product and that you are removing a substantial amount of that engineering when you remove that ceiling. A lot of people buy a bus because it is stronger than a "sticks and staples" (you hear that a lot on this forum) RV, then proceed to tear it apart and rebuild it out of sticks and staples. Go figure.
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Old 01-01-2020, 08:59 PM   #30
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Getting rid of the steel headliner isn't anything like "sticks and staples" thats just wrong.

Its a headliner. IF school buses came with anything other than steel headliners they're be trashed in no time.
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Old 01-01-2020, 09:34 PM   #31
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Exactly -- at least for Thomas bodies it confirms my suspicions (based on 30 years of being intimate with military helicopter/aircraft use and repair)
that while (of course) removing the inner steel ceiling panel will weaken the structure a bit -- it won't weaken it enough to change the buses meeting Federal Safety Requirements.

I've looked at a couple T-bone accident pix and that confirms my thoughts too that each seat is a mini roll cage adding waaay (math term!) more structure to the bus with how it's bolted to the chair-rail than the sheet metal on the ceiling ever could...

And for some actual math -- my seats weighed in at 1400 lbs. Figure nearly 750 pounds of that was the DOM tubing with gussets. That is some serious structure removal -- but like you said -- it must be done.

And even after the seat removal the sides are still stonger than most box trucks...



"removing the inner steel ceiling panel will weaken the structure a bit -- it won't weaken it enough to change the buses meeting Federal Safety Requirements.".... Stupid bus company engineers.. you would think that at least one school bus manufacturer would figure that out and save the company a bunch of money and get a big bonus.




"And for some actual math -- my seats weighed in at 1400 lbs. Figure nearly 750 pounds of that was the DOM tubing with gussets. That is some serious structure removal -- but like you said -- it must be done."....My bus was mostly wheelchair spaces (whole back half of the bus) and didn't have very many seats. Seems that they would of had to add some braces/roll bars to replace the strength and "mini" roll bars lost by not having all those seats, but nope, no extra braces or roll bars for the wheelchair students. But, I'm just guessing that the tubing provided some strong seats, capable of providing a cage for the children in an accident and still take years of abuse from the students. The horizontal wall chair rail/rib was a clever way to stiffen the wall, reduce the seat leg count to save fab $$ and install labor $$, give more room under the seats, less holes in the floor, and make it easier to clean/sweep/mop. Very clever, I probably missed some of the benefits.





"And even after the seat removal the sides are still stonger than most box trucks... "LOL.



Excuse me, I hope that you are just joking, because that's just plain silly. Have you ever seen a box truck roll over? I have. They are built to hold a load on top of the floor, not on the ceiling, although some (mostly trailers), have heavier walls and vertical e-track to hold loads suspended from the walls and are stronger. Most, if they have e-track, it is run horizontally just to tie stuff off to so it won't move around. Every car/pickup I have ever owned, except my convertibles, would come out of a rollover better than a box truck.



In the civilian world, the school bus is the only street vehicle mass produced that I know of that is purpose built with a roof to support 1.5 times its loaded weight in a rollover. Show me one, I repeat one, box truck that can do that. You can take a lot more than the seats out of a school bus and it would still be "stonger than most box trucks... "



BTW, if they built aircraft structurally to carry children to school they wouldn't be built like the military aircraft you were around. Why you want to compare aircraft construction to school bus construction is beyond my comprehension.
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Old 01-01-2020, 09:46 PM   #32
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"removing the inner steel ceiling panel will weaken the structure a bit -- it won't weaken it enough to change the buses meeting Federal Safety Requirements.".... Stupid bus company engineers.. you would think that at least one school bus manufacturer would figure that out and save the company a bunch of money and get a big bonus.




"And for some actual math -- my seats weighed in at 1400 lbs. Figure nearly 750 pounds of that was the DOM tubing with gussets. That is some serious structure removal -- but like you said -- it must be done."....My bus was mostly wheelchair spaces (whole back half of the bus) and didn't have very many seats. Seems that they would of had to add some braces/roll bars to replace the strength and "mini" roll bars lost by not having all those seats, but nope, no extra braces or roll bars for the wheelchair students. But, I'm just guessing that the tubing provided some strong seats, capable of providing a cage for the children in an accident and still take years of abuse from the students. The horizontal wall chair rail/rib was a clever way to stiffen the wall, reduce the seat leg count to save fab $$ and install labor $$, give more room under the seats, less holes in the floor, and make it easier to clean/sweep/mop. Very clever, I probably missed some of the benefits.





"And even after the seat removal the sides are still stonger than most box trucks... "LOL.



Excuse me, I hope that you are just joking, because that's just plain silly. Have you ever seen a box truck roll over? I have. They are built to hold a load on top of the floor, not on the ceiling, although some (mostly trailers), have heavier walls and vertical e-track to hold loads suspended from the walls and are stronger. Most, if they have e-track, it is run horizontally just to tie stuff off to so it won't move around. Every car/pickup I have ever owned, except my convertibles, would come out of a rollover better than a box truck.



In the civilian world, the school bus is the only street vehicle mass produced that I know of that is purpose built with a roof to support 1.5 times its loaded weight in a rollover. Show me one, I repeat one, box truck that can do that. You can take a lot more than the seats out of a school bus and it would still be "stonger than most box trucks... "



BTW, if they built aircraft structurally to carry children to school they wouldn't be built like the military aircraft you were around. Why you want to compare aircraft construction to school bus construction is beyond my comprehension.




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Old 01-01-2020, 09:57 PM   #33
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So you are joking?
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Old 01-02-2020, 06:43 AM   #34
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"removing the inner steel ceiling panel will weaken the structure a bit -- it won't weaken it enough to change the buses meeting Federal Safety Requirements.".... Stupid bus company engineers.. you would think that at least one school bus manufacturer would figure that out and save the company a bunch of money and get a big bonus.




"And for some actual math -- my seats weighed in at 1400 lbs. Figure nearly 750 pounds of that was the DOM tubing with gussets. That is some serious structure removal -- but like you said -- it must be done."....My bus was mostly wheelchair spaces (whole back half of the bus) and didn't have very many seats. Seems that they would of had to add some braces/roll bars to replace the strength and "mini" roll bars lost by not having all those seats, but nope, no extra braces or roll bars for the wheelchair students. But, I'm just guessing that the tubing provided some strong seats, capable of providing a cage for the children in an accident and still take years of abuse from the students. The horizontal wall chair rail/rib was a clever way to stiffen the wall, reduce the seat leg count to save fab $$ and install labor $$, give more room under the seats, less holes in the floor, and make it easier to clean/sweep/mop. Very clever, I probably missed some of the benefits.





"And even after the seat removal the sides are still stonger than most box trucks... "LOL.



Excuse me, I hope that you are just joking, because that's just plain silly. Have you ever seen a box truck roll over? I have. They are built to hold a load on top of the floor, not on the ceiling, although some (mostly trailers), have heavier walls and vertical e-track to hold loads suspended from the walls and are stronger. Most, if they have e-track, it is run horizontally just to tie stuff off to so it won't move around. Every car/pickup I have ever owned, except my convertibles, would come out of a rollover better than a box truck.



In the civilian world, the school bus is the only street vehicle mass produced that I know of that is purpose built with a roof to support 1.5 times its loaded weight in a rollover. Show me one, I repeat one, box truck that can do that. You can take a lot more than the seats out of a school bus and it would still be "stonger than most box trucks... "



BTW, if they built aircraft structurally to carry children to school they wouldn't be built like the military aircraft you were around. Why you want to compare aircraft construction to school bus construction is beyond my comprehension.
Actually- since around 2011 or so ALL vehicles have to have a roof that supports 1.5 times the weight of the vehicle. That's why the a,b,c pillars have gotten so thick. At least thats what all the literature said about my subaru.
I still wanna see some safety freak put a steel headliner in their camry or prius.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:33 AM   #35
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Actually- since around 2011 or so ALL vehicles have to have a roof that supports 1.5 times the weight of the vehicle. That's why the a,b,c pillars have gotten so thick. At least thats what all the literature said about my subaru.
I still wanna see some safety freak put a steel headliner in their camry or prius.

I am not sure what a Camry or Prius has in common with a 10 foot tall, 15 ton public school bus, but I am sure that the safety freaks would have something to say if you started ripping out the mandated air bags or part of the support structures.



If you could show us some documentation to back up your story, I for one would like to see it. I looked around the Subaru web site but couldn't find any reference to either a US law mandating all vehicles to support 1.5 times their weight in a roll over or that Subarus did support 1.5 times their weight in a roll over. Subaru did talk a lot about airbags and a bunch of different electronic safety tech.


I personally don't mind if you rip out your "headliner". But I don't think that it is right for you guys to be advising people to do it and belittling people who disagree with you. Besides that, when people start getting killed because of unsafe modifications to buses, the gov will jump in and either make it harder or impossible for people to modify school buses.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:41 AM   #36
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Look IDK what you're talking about no one's belittled anyone.
This thread was started to dispell the myths of 14-16ga headliners.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:49 AM   #37
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a vw tiguan can handle 15k lbs of weight on its roof and only deflects a couple inches.
That's just one example from googling quickly.
This was all over ten years ago-


Listen at :36 secs^




So most cars nowadays far exceed the 1.5 swr.
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:32 PM   #38
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Look IDK what you're talking about no one's belittled anyone.
This thread was started to dispell the myths of 14-16ga headliners.







Sorry, I must of misunderstood your intent. Perhaps you would be kind enough to enlighten me about the purpose of your comment "I still wanna see some safety freak put a steel headliner in their camry or prius."
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Old 01-02-2020, 08:43 PM   #39
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a vw tiguan can handle 15k lbs of weight on its roof and only deflects a couple inches.
That's just one example from googling quickly.
This was all over ten years ago-


Listen at :36 secs^




So most cars nowadays far exceed the 1.5 swr.



Thanks for pointing out these videos. I am not sure whether I would want to label a YouTube PR video as documentation but at least it is outside input. I appreciate your effort and will comment back after I have watched/analyzed his sales pitch.
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Old 01-03-2020, 03:19 AM   #40
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Sorry, I must of misunderstood your intent. Perhaps you would be kind enough to enlighten me about the purpose of your comment "I still wanna see some safety freak put a steel headliner in their camry or prius."
I dont' think it need explaining.

I would LOVE to see someone so overly concerned with preserving steel headliners "upgrade" their cars accordingly.

Belittling would be more like "I think anyone who leaves the metal is a moron". Which I actually DON'T believe.
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