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Old 01-03-2020, 04:21 AM   #41
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Thanks for pointing out these videos. I am not sure whether I would want to label a YouTube PR video as documentation but at least it is outside input. I appreciate your effort and will comment back after I have watched/analyzed his sales pitch.
They mention the federal standards. Its not a sales video of any kind. They're only a few minutes long.

IDK why this is such a big deal.

Have you not noticed the differences in vehicle design in the last ten years or so?

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Old 01-03-2020, 11:00 AM   #42
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I dont' think it need explaining.

I would LOVE to see someone so overly concerned with preserving steel headliners "upgrade" their cars accordingly.

Belittling would be more like "I think anyone who leaves the metal is a moron". Which I actually DON'T believe.





That doesn't make a any sense to me. Just more belittling crap.


So now I am a "safety freak" that's overly concerned with preserving steel headliners and should be doing something stupid like installing steel headliners in Japanese cars? I'm not as familiar with Japanese cars as you. If you really think that they need reinforcing, then you do it. Meanwhile I'm going to take that as another attempt to belittle me.





I'm guessing that your big interest in pursuing this is because someone opposed your repeated statements/opinions that the sheet metal ceilings are insignificant and there is nothing to lose by removing them.


I simply tried to make the point that the sheet metal ceiling is structural and that it is weakening the structure when you remove it. I know that I am not the only person that thinks that. In the 2 threads that I have participated in this discussion I tried to present my reasoning in a logical manner, more so in the first thread than this one.



"I think anyone who leaves the metal is a moron".... Maybe it is just a matter of semantics but I would think that comment was intended to insult rather than belittle.
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:42 AM   #43
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This issue will be resolved when we take 2 identical buses, remove the inner headliner from one, and roll them both down a 200-foot cliff/embankment where they crash into a pile of boulders at the bottom.


I got $$$ on the one that still has its headliner being the one with the least-caved-in body.


I'm keeping mine, because (a) I'mlazy , and (b) I want my passengers to have the best possible chance of survival in the cliff-roll scenario. I've rolled a truck down a hill before, in the flatlands, at a moment I didn't think that would even begin to happen.


Which is "stronger" (resists bending):

"C" channel or tubing?


For most other accidents on the highway, I don't see the structural loss being significant enough to be worse than riding in any Honda, from the 1977 Accord I used to own where standing on the roof was a no-no, to the modern ones that can be bashed with a giant block of steel on robotic arm.
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Old 01-03-2020, 12:48 PM   #44
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That doesn't make a any sense to me. Just more belittling crap.


So now I am a "safety freak" that's overly concerned with preserving steel headliners and should be doing something stupid like installing steel headliners in Japanese cars? I'm not as familiar with Japanese cars as you. If you really think that they need reinforcing, then you do it. Meanwhile I'm going to take that as another attempt to belittle me.





I'm guessing that your big interest in pursuing this is because someone opposed your repeated statements/opinions that the sheet metal ceilings are insignificant and there is nothing to lose by removing them.


I simply tried to make the point that the sheet metal ceiling is structural and that it is weakening the structure when you remove it. I know that I am not the only person that thinks that. In the 2 threads that I have participated in this discussion I tried to present my reasoning in a logical manner, more so in the first thread than this one.



"I think anyone who leaves the metal is a moron".... Maybe it is just a matter of semantics but I would think that comment was intended to insult rather than belittle.
YOu seemed ok till yesterday. Now its apparent that you just want to argue. I'm done, and have more than proven my point.
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Old 01-03-2020, 03:01 PM   #45
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YOu seemed ok till yesterday. Now its apparent that you just want to argue. I'm done, and have more than proven my point.



good, that's' all I want is for you to quit harping on me, the reason I started complaining yesterday was because I was tired of it. I've talked about this all that I care to.
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Old 01-03-2020, 06:01 PM   #46
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I am not sure what a Camry or Prius has in common with a 10 foot tall, 15 ton public school bus, but I am sure that the safety freaks would have something to say if you started ripping out the mandated air bags or part of the support structures.



If you could show us some documentation to back up your story, I for one would like to see it. I looked around the Subaru web site but couldn't find any reference to either a US law mandating all vehicles to support 1.5 times their weight in a roll over or that Subarus did support 1.5 times their weight in a roll over. Subaru did talk a lot about airbags and a bunch of different electronic safety tech.


I personally don't mind if you rip out your "headliner". But I don't think that it is right for you guys to be advising people to do it and belittling people who disagree with you. Besides that, when people start getting killed because of unsafe modifications to buses, the gov will jump in and either make it harder or impossible for people to modify school buses.
I play devils advocate with stuff like this when you have no evidence either way that what you say is true or critical. With out engineering numbers most of these discussion are based on anything but facts. Can you name an instance where someone was killed because they removed their ceiling? Horror stories like these are just not based on any facts.
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:15 PM   #47
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So you are joking?
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Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Look IDK what you're talking about no one's belittled anyone.
This thread was started to dispell the myths of 14-16ga headliners.
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I play devils advocate with stuff like this when you have no evidence either way that what you say is true or critical. With out engineering numbers most of these discussion are based on anything but facts. Can you name an instance where someone was killed because they removed their ceiling? Horror stories like these are just not based on any facts.
BUT there are facts here -- it just takes actual THINKING to put them together.

We learned from ECCB that any given model of Thomas bus used either a 20ga solid steel ceiling or a 20ga perf. acoustic steel ceiling.

We KNOW that perf panel is considerably weaker than the same gauge solid panel.

We KNOW that ALL Thomas built buses met the required federal safety standards in play at the time of production.

Therefore we KNOW that a solid steel ceiling panel is NOT required to be installed to meet the federal safety standard.
(This is a form of math called logic)

I know more than enough about metal, frame fabrication, and regrettably impact damage...
To KNOW that while a Thomas bus roof will be stronger for having an inner ceiling panel installed -- It will still be more than strong enough to do it's job without a ceiling panel.

I singled out Thomas bodies because that's what ECCB got specs for.
You can further conjecture that any similar construction build bus will respond the same way...
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Old 01-03-2020, 07:25 PM   #48
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BUT there are facts here -- it just takes actual THINKING to put them together.

We learned from ECCB that any given model of Thomas bus used either a 20ga solid steel ceiling or a 20ga perf. acoustic steel ceiling.

We KNOW that perf panel is considerably weaker than the same gauge solid panel.

We KNOW that ALL Thomas built buses met the required federal safety standards in play at the time of production.

Therefore we KNOW that a solid steel ceiling panel is NOT required to be installed to meet the federal safety standard.
(This is a form of math called logic)

I know more than enough about metal, frame fabrication, and regrettably impact damage...
To KNOW that while a Thomas bus roof will be stronger for having an inner ceiling panel installed -- It will be still be more than strong enough to do it's job without a ceiling panel.

I singled out Thomas bodies because that's what ECCB got specs for.
You can further conjecture that any similar construction build bus will respond the same way...
...
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Old 01-03-2020, 09:16 PM   #49
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BUT there are facts here -- it just takes actual THINKING to put them together.

We learned from ECCB that any given model of Thomas bus used either a 20ga solid steel ceiling or a 20ga perf. acoustic steel ceiling.

We KNOW that perf panel is considerably weaker than the same gauge solid panel.

We KNOW that ALL Thomas built buses met the required federal safety standards in play at the time of production.

Therefore we KNOW that a solid steel ceiling panel is NOT required to be installed to meet the federal safety standard.
(This is a form of math called logic)

I know more than enough about metal, frame fabrication, and regrettably impact damage...
To KNOW that while a Thomas bus roof will be stronger for having an inner ceiling panel installed -- It will still be more than strong enough to do it's job without a ceiling panel.

I singled out Thomas bodies because that's what ECCB got specs for.
You can further conjecture that any similar construction build bus will respond the same way...
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Originally Posted by o1marc View Post
...
I'm glad my point wasn't lost!
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:42 PM   #50
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I really like the look of the perforated metal. I'm planning to take mine down long enough to spray some insulating foam in there, and then reinstall it. I would like to add 4" - 6" more inches of insulation to the outside of the roof, possibly sprayed on between some custom fabricated ribs that would attach to the existing roof skin and act as attachment points for a new roof. I would end up with about R-36 insulation and a bus looks fairly stock.
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Old 01-03-2020, 11:56 PM   #51
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I really like the look of the perforated metal. I'm planning to take mine down long enough to spray some insulating foam in there, and then reinstall it. I would like to add 4" - 6" more inches of insulation to the outside of the roof, possibly sprayed on between some custom fabricated ribs that would attach to the existing roof skin and act as attachment points for a new roof. I would end up with about R-36 insulation and a bus looks fairly stock.
I should think a well done roof raise would be easier; look more like a stock bus when finished, have less chance for roof leaks BOTH from the outside in, and from vapor/condensation issues from the inside going out than what you propose...
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Old 01-04-2020, 12:05 AM   #52
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I should think a well done roof raise would be easier; look more like a stock bus when finished, have less chance for roof leaks BOTH from the outside in, and from vapor/condensation issues from the inside going out than what you propose...
Dear Sir or Madam,

I respectfully disagree with you on all counts. Speaking just to the question of vapor/condensation issues, I intend to have none of that due to fact that I intend to implement an energy recovery ventilation system that should deal with all condensation questions quite handily.
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Old 01-04-2020, 06:10 AM   #53
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Dear Sir or Madam,

I respectfully disagree with you on all counts. Speaking just to the question of vapor/condensation issues, I intend to have none of that due to fact that I intend to implement an energy recovery ventilation system that should deal with all condensation questions quite handily.
But your bus is so good looking!
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:03 AM   #54
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Dear Sir or Madam,

I respectfully disagree with you on all counts. Speaking just to the question of vapor/condensation issues, I intend to have none of that due to fact that I intend to implement an energy recovery ventilation system that should deal with all condensation questions quite handily.



From what I have seen of the pics of the inside of the roof sheet metal of school bus conversions, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence that condensation is as serious of a problem as a lot of people think it is. Most, maybe all, of the roof rust that I saw was from roof leaks (the corrosion from the leaks would probably have been worse if not for the perforated ceiling). The perforated ceiling allows condensation, if any, to dry out fairly quickly in most conditions. I would think that the humidity level in a bus full of children breathing would be pretty high and condensation would happen frequently if it is going to happen. At least the perforated ceiling, fiberglass system seems to work better than the steel, plywood , rubber (vapor barrier) floor system.


However, I can see how skoolies also get used at night as opposed to school buses which are mostly used in the day. Nights being colder than days could increase the amount/incidences of condensation enough to cause a difference. Really cold areas can also be a problem requiring different solutions. Don't know, don't plan on finding out.


Country living vs city - country is cooler but humidity is generally lower than the neighboring city seems to be true?. In Las Vegas (city in a dry desert), 3 times in 17 years I saw it condensate on the bottom side of my aluminum carport cover so badly that I thought it was raining and I had a serious roof leak... It wasn't raining, just 100% humidity, no heat or a/c to consider just different temps/micro climate under the roof than on top (warmer, higher humidity air under the roof than on top, go figure).



Some thoughts


Modern people living on the grid in the city turn their thermostats up in the winter, much higher than people living off grid?. The hotter the air, the more moisture it can hold and when this air cools enough it drops the moisture as rain or condensation. These people need a vapor barrier on the inside of an exterior wall, especially if they have well sealed, highly insulated homes. Because of the thick insulation (which drops the amount of energy required to maintain a certain temperature) the outside wall surface inside the cavity is as cold as the outdoor temperature (the insulation prevents it getting any heat from the interior). If humidity gets thru from the interior it will condensate on the cold surface. We know this because the people that sell energy, insulation, and vapor barriers have told us that over and over. Heck they even paid for all of the testing to prove it. One thing that they don't tell you is that if it leaks with a vapor barrier and no ventilation then it can't dry out and then it just goes downhill till its gone. But that's ok, you can buy another one.


I'm not even going to talk about summer..... its all backwards....


If you have less insulation in the walls (how dare you) then the outside wall surface inside the cavity is going to be warmer (losing heat energy to the outside) and the interior air is going to have less moisture (humidity) because it is not as warm, therefore there is less opportunity for condensate to form. They don't tell you that because it is contrary to there interests and your comfort. If you don't have a modern inside vapor barrier and if you do get condensation and if the wall is well sealed (if, if, if) then it can't ventilate/dry out and that could be a problem. This was the old way of construction - except the old house walls were not well sealed so they did have a tendency to dry out.




Most off griders do not turn up their thermostats like the city folk ?? Wood burners maybe an exception??


My point is - it is not cut and dried or easy to figure out. Your behavior, the amount of energy available, the comfort level desired, location , and use all affect whether condensation is going to be a problem to throw your $$ & time at, or can you just modify your behavior... you are going to have to modify your behavior anyway if your use is to live in a bus. Blah Blah Blah


Use? If you are going to stay put, then spraying urethane foam on the outside roof and coating it with white elastomeric is a proven solution in the mobile home industry. I say foam the sides too, coat it with stucco and paint it to look like a big rock. Pretty stealthy unless you park it in a Walmart parking lot.. "Where did that big rock come from?" LOL
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Old 01-04-2020, 08:06 AM   #55
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Its always worth a peak. This is what I had to deal with-


That's about a worst case scenario.
At the end of the day I got rid of the rust and funk and now the bus has a raised roof and no steel headliner.

Having had more than a couple buses one thing I can assure you of is that buses sweat inside when its humid. Condensation is a real issue in a big steel can. If you open up the walls and look in and down you'll see daylight. Those are drains for all the condensation.
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:35 AM   #56
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Its always worth a peak. This is what I had to deal with-


That's about a worst case scenario.
At the end of the day I got rid of the rust and funk and now the bus has a raised roof and no steel headliner.

Having had more than a couple buses one thing I can assure you of is that buses sweat inside when its humid. Condensation is a real issue in a big steel can. If you open up the walls and look in and down you'll see daylight. Those are drains for all the condensation.



I couldn't get the image to enlarge. Is that rust on the ceiling? Where did the bus come from? What brand of bus? Does/did the roof leak?



I thought that most of the wall problems were caused by window leaks and screw penetration leaks. Does the condensation on the windows drain into the walls also?
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Old 01-04-2020, 09:56 AM   #57
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I couldn't get the image to enlarge. Is that rust on the ceiling? Where did the bus come from? What brand of bus? Does/did the roof leak?



I thought that most of the wall problems were caused by window leaks and screw penetration leaks. Does the condensation on the windows drain into the walls also?
Have you ever lived in a humid environment?
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Old 01-04-2020, 10:17 AM   #58
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Have you ever lived in a humid environment?

humid climates
lived in California, Texas, Arkansas, S.Carolina, Mississippi, been in a lot more but did not live there, worked HVAC in Texas and Mississippi

dryer climates
lived in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, S Dakota, Nevada, Arizona been in a lot more but did not live there, worked HVAC in Nevada


studied refrigeration in junior college when I was young and was in the HVAC business for a while and worked for other HVAC companies for a while


Also worked with some solar heat in the 80s, worked roofing off and on for about 30 years, did a little plumbing too along with most of the construction trades. Between the HVAC, roofing, and plumbing I've had my share of figuring out whether it is a condensation or a leak problem. Funny thing is all 3 can leak and/or condensate and can do both at the same time.


Theoretically you could have 6 water sources at the same time, although the most I've ever seen at one time was 3 - a rooftop self contained a/c unit that the roof was leaking around the cant strip and the a/c condensate collection pan was leaking and the condensate drain was not insulated so occasionally it would sweat a little. When there was a rainstorm the roof leaked, the condensate pan leaked, and the drain sweated at the same time. The water from all 3 would drain onto a steel beam with a little slope and drip in the same spot. We thought we also had a water pipe leak but ruled that out by turning off the water and opening all of the faucets.


Generally speaking metal structures are the easiest/simplest to figure out.
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Old 01-04-2020, 10:44 AM   #59
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humid climates
lived in California, Texas, Arkansas, S.Carolina, Mississippi, been in a lot more but did not live there, worked HVAC in Texas and Mississippi

dryer climates
lived in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, S Dakota, Nevada, Arizona been in a lot more but did not live there, worked HVAC in Nevada


studied refrigeration in junior college when I was young and was in the HVAC business for a while and worked for other HVAC companies for a while


Also worked with some solar heat in the 80s
So a nomad like myself...
And in Carolina & Miss. you never saw condensation inside a poorly vented building?

I have a condensation problem in my crawl space here in OH from my waste water line which is 5" PVC.
At first I though it was leaking! but the warm waste water from the house flowing through the colder air of the crawl space (only in wintertime) causes condensation along the length of the pipe which than gathers and drips at a low point along the run...
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Old 01-04-2020, 10:49 AM   #60
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So a nomad like myself...
And in Carolina & Miss. you never saw condensation inside a poorly vented building?

I have a condensation problem in my crawl space here in OH from my waste water line which is 5" PVC.
At first I though it was leaking! but the warm waste water from the house flowing through the colder air of the crawl space (only in wintertime) causes condensation along the length of the pipe which than gathers and drips at a low point along the run...
And I always thought it was the other way around....
Warm moist air condenses on cold pipes!


Or maybe the cold weather makes your pipes shrink and leak at the joints?


But what do I know...I wasn't there
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