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Old 10-27-2018, 10:59 PM   #1
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Join Date: Apr 2018
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Year: 2005
Coachwork: International CE200
Engine: VT365
Rated Cap: 26
Thoughts on bus: 2004 Internation CE, VT365/Allison 2500, 147k miles

Hi,


This bus is currently up for auction:
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/al...ew?auc=2205797


From what I have read there is nothing to bad with that engine. Especially at the bus current price point ($800)


Anything else that stands out?


Bas
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Old 10-27-2018, 11:31 PM   #2
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I'm not gonna tell you to run away from that bus, but I would if it were me. The vt365 engine is basically the same as the ford 6.0L engine. You can google it if you want the scoop on how bad that engine was. That was the engine that killed the relationship between Internation and Ford. After that engine Ford would no longer use international engines in their trucks. Ford fans supposedly have ways of dealing with the major issues to try to make lemonade out of lemons and they'll tell you that it's a great engine after all the mods, but I've seen them still towing their trucks home to fix the same probs over angain and replace all 8 injectors numerous times. If it was me I'd keep lookin.
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Old 10-28-2018, 05:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brijn View Post
Hi,


This bus is currently up for auction:
https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/al...ew?auc=2205797


From what I have read there is nothing to bad with that engine. Especially at the bus current price point ($800)


Anything else that stands out?


Bas
Its going to stay cheap because its engine has one of the worst reputations of anything put into a road-going vehicle for the last 40 years or so.
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Old 10-28-2018, 07:32 AM   #4
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Year: 2004
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Engine: DT466E
Rated Cap: 71 passenger / 12 window
That bus is newer than 2004. I have a 2004 International CE and it doesn't look like that, outside or on the dashboard. Thus, I'd walk from this auction. If they don't even know the year, they may not know much else about it.

This is what a 2004 International CE looks like: https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/au...ew?auc=2189435
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Old 10-28-2018, 07:56 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
That bus is newer than 2004. I have a 2004 International CE and it doesn't look like that, outside or on the dashboard. Thus, I'd walk from this auction. If they don't even know the year, they may not know much else about it.

This is what a 2004 International CE looks like: https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/au...ew?auc=2189435
Good eye!
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Old 10-28-2018, 08:16 AM   #6
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Good eye!
The sticker on the engine says 2004 but that's not a 2004 body. Not sure what's up with that.
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Old 10-28-2018, 09:20 AM   #7
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The sticker on the engine says 2004 but that's not a 2004 body. Not sure what's up with that.
Engines are often a year older than the body. My 2004 has a 2003 engine.
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Old 10-28-2018, 10:14 AM   #8
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this bus is a 2005. and as EC says the chassis is often a year older.. this was the time that International was Re-branding from AmTran to IC bus. and there were some production delays at the time. so you may find some newer bodies and older chassis..



the VT-365.. not one of Navistar's best engines. however if you take care of them they can and are pretty good.. but you need to add a few $$.. unlike the ford 6.0. the VT didnt suffer from the head stud issues due to less power and construction that wasnet completely cheapened by ford. (yes ford was partly to fault).. you can upgrade the pil cooler and EGR cooler on these.. HOWEVER even though im generally a somewhat-fan of the VT365, 2004 is not the year i would want.. it suffered far more issues than the 06+ models of it... the later years of VT are actually pretty good..





onto the engine that REALLY killed the relationship between navistar and Ford.. the truly ill-fated. 6.4 Powerstroke... Also known to the international truck and bus community as the MaxxForce 7.. yeah there as many lawsuits flying over that engine as there are MF7s built... or close to it...

-Christopher
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Old 10-28-2018, 11:55 AM   #9
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Tx all for the views. It seems there are very, very few (haven't seen one so far) shorties with a desirable engine. In Canada I have found several shorties, but all with the Maxxforce 7 engines, and I understand those to be worse then the VT365?


I have no issues spending a few k on engine parts to make it more reliable/efficient. For example, if I would:
- Add an aftermarket external oil cooler
- Add an aftermarket coolant filter
- Do an EGR delete or replace EGR
- Replace gaskets and head studs if needed



I would still have a lot less money into it then buying something in Canada. Would that give me reasonably reliable engine?



The use would be longer road trips


Bas
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Old 10-28-2018, 12:01 PM   #10
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Join Date: Apr 2018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
That bus is newer than 2004. I have a 2004 International CE and it doesn't look like that, outside or on the dashboard. Thus, I'd walk from this auction. If they don't even know the year, they may not know much else about it.

This is what a 2004 International CE looks like: https://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/au...ew?auc=2189435

You are correct, a VIN decode shows it as a 2005
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Old 10-28-2018, 01:11 PM   #11
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
Quote:
Originally Posted by brijn View Post
Tx all for the views. It seems there are very, very few (haven't seen one so far) shorties with a desirable engine. In Canada I have found several shorties, but all with the Maxxforce 7 engines, and I understand those to be worse then the VT365?


I have no issues spending a few k on engine parts to make it more reliable/efficient. For example, if I would:
- Add an aftermarket external oil cooler
- Add an aftermarket coolant filter
- Do an EGR delete or replace EGR
- Replace gaskets and head studs if needed



I would still have a lot less money into it then buying something in Canada. Would that give me reasonably reliable engine?



The use would be longer road trips


Bas



im not going to say the VT is perfect but im also not going to say completely stay away either.. your idea of the updates is good .. however I hear very little about head gasket failures on VT vs 6.0.. a good part being that ford really cranked up the power and RPM compared to IHC.. IHC had longevity in mind and ford had winning the consumer Horsepower wars in mind.. Fird used their own computers and programming compared to IHC.. and also their own turbo... thus putting lots more stress on the Head bolts.. the result was lots of head gasket failures in year 04 and early 05s.. not to mention after these trucks were a few years old all the aftermarket companies came out with tuners for the ford versions.. so the "kids" were cranking these engines way up beyond what IHC ever intended them to do.. result was a lot of blown headgaskets...



another area of contention was Overheating these engines... esp the OIL.. most people only see the coolant temp andthink about the coolant temp when considering whether an engne over-temps.. most times theres a big corelation.. getthe coolant hot and the il temp follows.. cooler coolant, cooler oil temp.? Yes to a point.. as an engine gets miles and hours racked up, it inherently will develop more blow-by. when a cylinder fires, the combustion gasses burning and exploding in the cylinder work to push the piston down with a lot of force.. some of these VERY hot combustion gasses will sneak by the rings and into the crank case.. this is called blow-by and it gets more and more as an engine wears.. with it being so hot, the oil takes on the heat of these gasses.. warming up the oil..



the oil cooler;s job is to take that heat away from the oil , transfer it to the coolant where the radiator dissipates it.. the hotter the coolant, the less the oil cooler can do its job.. **PLUS** an oil cooler that has its coolant-passage tubes or oil passage tubes CLogged.. isnt going to cool the oil much..



why is this so important? if you are pulling a long hill, foot to the floor, its hot outside and your coolant temp and oil temp start going up. if you happen to get your oil temp up to 260 degrees.. then you are done!! cooked!!.. there were **PLASTIC** parts in the oil filter standpipe area of this engine. the plastc melts partially and begins to work its way through the engine.. you lose pressure. the HPOP runs dry, you stall out!.. the engine cools, plastic hardens inside the block.. and time to go shopping for a new engine.... in the last 2 and a half years ive talked to 2 people who have done this... both of them in my opinion were clueless becasue they ran the temp gauge off the scale.. navistar did build some protection into these engines by way of de-rating the power and also sounding alarm beepers and lights when the oil temp went high..



I only bring this up because its important to maintain clean oil and clean coolant in these engines.. probably more than any of the other engines you will encounter. if you have the capability of reading the computers they store the alarms for low oil as well as over-temp..



anyway not trying to scare you just pointing out facts about these motors.. that said.. I'll awlays go ack to talking about the couple I know that runs "hot-shot" style in their Box trucks they bought and have 400K or so on both now.. they are VT-365s.. that are startingto finally get tired.. they have never been cracked open other than to upgrade their oil coolers, EGR coolers, (when they were not very old) and each has had a set of injectors.. one I think had 2 sets.. but neither truck has ever stranded them due to an engine failure..
-Christopher
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Old 10-29-2018, 04:01 PM   #12
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Year: 2005
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@cadillackid Thank you for that very complete reply. From all the reading I have done, I'm walking away with the feeling this would be a reasonable bet.


If I do get the bus, I will pick it up with an ODBII reader in the pocket so I will know EOT and ECT from day 1. If > 15gr delta, I know there is work to be done. Pictures of the stuff that people catches in after market coolant filters is pretty amazing (not in a good way


Brilliant design with that plastic pickup tube, man..


Bas
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Old 10-29-2018, 05:04 PM   #13
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Join Date: May 2009
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Posts: 12,852
Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
You will need a j1708 / j1939 code scanner like as a scangauge D to read it’s computer, medium duty trucks and busses like this don’t use OBD2 for the diagnostic
Christopher
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Old 10-29-2018, 05:16 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillackid View Post
You will need a j1708 / j1939 code scanner like as a scangauge D to read itís computer, medium duty trucks and busses like this donít use OBD2 for the diagnostic
Christopher

That is certainly handy to know There is was, thinking that was one of the very few standards that is shared over many years and many platforms. I should have known better
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Old 10-29-2018, 07:28 PM   #15
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,852
Year: 1991
Coachwork: Carpenter
Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
it is in a way.. J1708 / J1939 is the standard for all commercial vehicles.. semis, busses, box trucks, trolleys..



OBD2 is the standard for all consumer-sold vehicles..



-Christopher
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Old 10-30-2018, 04:31 PM   #16
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As of 30 minutes ago, I'm now officially member of the Skoolie family!
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Old 10-30-2018, 05:05 PM   #17
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Columbus Ohio
Posts: 12,852
Year: 1991
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Chassis: International 3800
Engine: DTA360 / MT643
Rated Cap: 7 Row Handicap
how cool!!! welcome aboard and let the fun begin!!!!
-Christopher
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Old 11-03-2018, 04:02 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brijn View Post
Tx all for the views. It seems there are very, very few (haven't seen one so far) shorties with a desirable engine. In Canada I have found several shorties, but all with the Maxxforce 7 engines, and I understand those to be worse then the VT365?


I have no issues spending a few k on engine parts to make it more reliable/efficient. For example, if I would:
- Add an aftermarket external oil cooler
- Add an aftermarket coolant filter
- Do an EGR delete or replace EGR
- Replace gaskets and head studs if needed

I would still have a lot less money into it then buying something in Canada. Would that give me reasonably reliable engine?
......
Bas
Why not buy it and just plan to do an engine swap?
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Old 11-03-2018, 05:23 PM   #19
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Location: SoCal
Posts: 29
Year: 03?
Coachwork: BlueBird
Chassis: MicroBird
Engine: 7.3L powerstroke
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastCB View Post
Engines are often a year older than the body. My 2004 has a 2003 engine.
New to forum... But I can agree on year discrepancy. I have a 2005 Ford E450 Bluebird cutaway 5 window Skoolie. It shows 2005 on build date label in coach, as well as on title/registration. It was bought new in June 2004 by a school district w/ complete maintenance records which go back to even purchase date modifications.

However, it has a 7.3L DI Powerstroke diesel in it which was last produced in 2003. Apparently Bluebird must have stocked up on a bunch of '03 Ford chassis with the better engine in 2Q of '03 and built them out over the next yr or so.

Im new to buses, so not sure if this is common or rare. Anybody have any feedback on this Skoolie? Havent put much into it yet other than stripping insides. Has 198k miles and I drove it back to SoCal from Tennessee on a scenic route (3500 mi). Debating how much $ and time to put into it... The 7.3L short-bus on a newer BB build was a big selling point to me. (As well as no rust issues)
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