Why I won't spray foam my bus

[PatrickBaptist]

Originally Posted by kidharris

I re-roofed a home in Charleston S.Carolina back in 91, had to replace some decking in 1 area. At some point in time some one stuck some early formula foam in the attic. I noticed that it had pulled away from the sides of the enclosure (2x4s), I touched it and it disintegrated and fell to dust. I assumed off gassing probably caused by heat.

That's surely safe in a bus though.... LOL.

When looking up the videos I posted I saw where in homes the stuff is awesome at hiding termite damage, when looking at buying a home people prob should have careful consideration of that as well.
Big reason why I wasn't suppose to put encapsulations/vape barriers up to the seal plate in crawl spaces/basements, most people didn't care about code and wanted it all the way up....
I had to beware what spray adhesives to use even.
Alot of people don't want to understand what happens with the chemicals vs their biology. They just buy into the sales propaganda and trust in the people wanting to make money off them that it's safe.

Yeah I've seen the spray foam break down like that as well.

Shoot I let my white/shower board sit outside for a year before putting it into my bus (just finally put it in last week).

But I even dated a girl years before that honestly believed meth made her smarter. So I've learned people will make some wild insane claims on the most stupid of things.

What interests me is how smoking is blamed so much for health problems but you don't ever hear about that new car smell being oils vaporizing out of the plastics used on the interior and how bad that is for your health LOL.

My entire blood line thinks I'm crazy because I don't feed my kids junk and mostly feed them organic food and LOTS of fresh fruit while their kids are sickly and mine don't ever get more than a slight fever once a year kinda thing.
They think it' stupid to spend as much as we do on our food budget when they think it's cheaper to just feed them at the drive through fast food joints and spend more money on medical expenses and have overweight kids, my half brothers being a prime example, a 14 year old shouldn't need a CPAP machine ad weigh 350 or more pounds...

But most people aren't going to listen, they prefer pride and suffering.
A few of us care enough to think it out though.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by PatrickBaptist

Alot of people don't want to understand what happens with the chemicals vs their biology. They just buy into the sales propaganda and trust in the people wanting to make money off them that it's safe.

What interests me is how smoking is blamed so much for health problems but you don't ever hear about that new car smell being oils vaporizing out of the plastics used on the interior and how bad that is for your health LOL.

This kind of gets to the crux of the issue, excepting obviously-botched jobs. I don't think there's any doubt all these chemicals aren't good for you, but to what extent are they bad in the aggregate?

This discussion got me thinking back to all the chemicals I've been exposed to in my lifetime. Grew up in an agricultural area surrounded by fields that regularly got crop-dusted w/ pesticides/herbicides; even got acutely poisoned once from the same. Worked in a chemical plant pipe fitting galvanized steel. Worked as a motorcycle mechanic, exposed to race/varnished fuels, chlorinated solvents, cleaners, etc Swam in polluted waters. Painted without protection. Reloaded & soldered on the reg. The list goes on & on & on.

Now at over 50, how many problems do I have that I can even remotely link to any of the above? None.

I'm not saying it won't catch up to me someday, or that one shouldn't do everything they can to limit exposure (I'm pretty big on PPE these days), or that maybe I've just been lucky, but I do feel our general resilience to many common chemical insults is often underestimated.

[PatrickBaptist]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

This kind of gets to the crux of the issue, excepting obviously-botched jobs. I don't think there's any doubt all these chemicals aren't good for you, but to what extent are they bad in the aggregate?

This discussion got me thinking back to all the chemicals I've been exposed to in my lifetime. Grew up in an agricultural area surrounded by fields that regularly got crop-dusted w/ pesticides/herbicides; even got acutely poisoned once from the same. Worked in a chemical plant pipe fitting galvanized steel. Worked as a motorcycle mechanic, exposed to race/varnished fuels, chlorinated solvents, cleaners, etc Swam in polluted waters. Painted without protection. Reloaded & soldered on the reg. The list goes on & on & on.

Now at over 50, how many problems do I have that I can even remotely link to any of the above? None.

I'm not saying it won't catch up to me someday, or that one shouldn't do everything they can to limit exposure (I'm pretty big on PPE these days), or that maybe I've just been lucky, but I do feel our general resilience to many common chemical insults is often underestimated.

I hear you friend, when I was young I wound up with HG (mercury poisoning) and as I grew up I enjoyed burning plastics, CDs, PCB boards, and all sorts of junk and sometimes doing inside a garage with no regard for how it would make me feel today....
I def can like a good deal of my issues to the HG. I have heart problems (had a heart attack when I was 23, likely due to drugs and binge drinking and being fat), kidney problems, and I prob am dealing with pancreatitis now as well though I just won't goto the dr for it.
I don't know how many vehicles I've scrapped and discharged the AC refrigerant in the open air, man that will give you a nasty headache. Untelling how many cans of ether/acetone I've used cleaning parts, though a year or so ago I found using good ol Pine-sol will clean even the nastiest carbs, it eats rust and varnish really well off parts.
Burned fiberglass and vinyl, tires, all sorts of crap. How I don't have lung cancer by now is a shocker....
PERSONALLY because of my belief in predestination I don't think it matters what you do to yourself you won't die until it's really your time, but it will matter as to the effect as to how well or not you will function and feel before it is your time.
Wasn't until I got into a more healthy lifestyle that things improved for me, at one point I was having seizures as well, but I'm 4-5 years free from them thank God that was the worst of it for me. Before I got a grip on my problems I was over 300lbs at 5'7", now I'm around 165-175 range.
If I had not got the weight off I'd hate to know what I'd feel like now, been to a normal weight for 11 years or so now. Coming up on 10 years sober in March.
While I still work as a mechanic and salvager, I want my living area to be clean. I even use carbon scrubbers to clean the air in my rig, it will remove VOCs even and man does the air even smell good and I can't smell much of anything anymore.

If your 50 and have ZERO health problems and never need a doctor then your doing very well, though one person vs the next isn't the same. My great uncle lived to be 93, smoked hard from a little kid and worked his whole life farming with no care or knowledge of what he was fooling with and never got cancer or any serious problems at all, while yet my grandfather couldn't make it past 57 before dying and didn't live the same life, he too smoked, had several strokes and heart attacks...
Just depends on genetics. We aren't all equal at all contrary to what most think, some are effected differently with things vs the next guy/gal.

My grandmothers side has a longer life span than that of my grandfathers.... My Dad isn't far from his being over as well, especially if he isn't going to give up the pain killers. But if I had a Wife like his I'd put a gun in my mouth and be done with it all, sad but she is that bad. But ah he chose her.

Back to the farming thing, depends on where you look, some farmers are effected while others are very much so.... Depends on how much they were exposed to vs how their genetics can deal with it or just how much mercy God decides to deal them.

Many things people thought were safe at one point, then turned out it was bad news at best, like asbestos, my step mothers father lived in his 80s but in the end that was what caused his cancers and made more than half his life horrible. Took him along time to accept it even when the drs told him what the cause was because he was told it was safe and a good thing. He worked his whole life as a union pipe fitter.

Anyways I digress.

[kidharris]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

This kind of gets to the crux of the issue, excepting obviously-botched jobs. I don't think there's any doubt all these chemicals aren't good for you, but to what extent are they bad in the aggregate?

This discussion got me thinking back to all the chemicals I've been exposed to in my lifetime. Grew up in an agricultural area surrounded by fields that regularly got crop-dusted w/ pesticides/herbicides; even got acutely poisoned once from the same. Worked in a chemical plant pipe fitting galvanized steel. Worked as a motorcycle mechanic, exposed to race/varnished fuels, chlorinated solvents, cleaners, etc Swam in polluted waters. Painted without protection. Reloaded & soldered on the reg. The list goes on & on & on.

Now at over 50, how many problems do I have that I can even remotely link to any of the above? None.

I'm not saying it won't catch up to me someday, or that one shouldn't do everything they can to limit exposure (I'm pretty big on PPE these days), or that maybe I've just been lucky, but I do feel our general resilience to many common chemical insults is often underestimated.

Same here. maybe genetics plays a role in the susceptibility. Whats the old saying "Some people have to be shot multiple times to kill them while a close miss will do for others" Oops, that may have more to do with attitude.


Maybe ignorance is to blame, after all I didn't know about mercury, asbestos, and lead paint being so bad for me when I was playing/working/living with it. If I had known, maybe one of them would have got to me



Maybe I just didn't get enough exposure or maybe that is what is wrong with me now, LOL, .... Mercury was fun tho, turns some stuff shiny and has a funny way of rolling around ... entertaining toy, but tastes funny.


Truth is that too much of anything is bad for you..... just different amounts for different folks.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by kidharris

Same here. maybe genetics plays a role in the susceptibility. Whats the old saying "Some people have to be shot multiple times to kill them while a close miss will do for others"

Absolutely. Along with countless other variables.

Maybe I just didn't get enough exposure or maybe that is what is wrong with me now, LOL, .... Mercury was fun tho, turns some stuff shiny and has a funny way of rolling around ... entertaining toy, but tastes funny.
.

I remember playing with mercury that our teachers gave us to play with. Then again I did go to a small-town school

[EastCoastCB]

My friends dad yells at the tv in unnatural ways. He also grew up playing with mercury his mom would bring home from work.

[TheHubbardBus]

Originally Posted by PatrickBaptist

Anyways I digress.

Not quoting everything to avoid unnecessary duplication but I have nothing but respect for both the challenges you've overcome, as well as the approach you're taking to raising your family and guarding yours/their health. Every aspect of life is a balance of risk vs reward. We all have to decide where we draw those lines. It would be the height of idiocy for anyone to declare in earnest "You're living too healthy".

Personally speaking, I've taken so many chances that should have killed me by now but didn't, I kind of have a morbid fascination to see what ultimately does "Live fast, die young, & leave a good looking corpse" doesn't work out as planned when you have luck on your side, I guess. Whatever I leave will definitely be closed-casket material lol.

[PatrickBaptist]

Originally Posted by TheHubbardBus

Not quoting everything to avoid unnecessary duplication but I have nothing but respect for both the challenges you've overcome, as well as the approach you're taking to raising your family and guarding yours/their health. Every aspect of life is a balance of risk vs reward. We all have to decide where we draw those lines. It would be the height of idiocy for anyone to declare in earnest "You're living too healthy".

Personally speaking, I've taken so many chances that should have killed me by now but didn't, I kind of have a morbid fascination to see what ultimately does "Live fast, die young, & leave a good looking corpse" doesn't work out as planned when you have luck on your side, I guess. Whatever I leave will definitely be closed-casket material lol.

Yeah playing with mercury in that form wasn't to blame I don't believe, but rather the cases of 8' floros I busted in a barn and threw that white powder around for as long as I could making clouds was probably my major source of it. Big reason I love LED lights... I've got about half a pint of elemental mercury I've collected over the years LOL.

"Every aspect of life is a balance of risk vs reward" Amen and I don't claim to live perfect or close to it, I smoke cigars (didn't start that till 5 years ago though) and I eat goodys powders like they are the best vitamins you can buy between head pain and trying to keep my blood thinned out because I don't take any type of RX stuff, sometimes I take Kratom for pain (thankfully they legalized it in my state a little over a year ago). Yeah I can't live as healthy as I desire to, I have to work and well I do all sorts of labor for a living that isn't conducive to good health no matter how you spin it. I just try to limit exposure as much as possible.

But in regards to my family I treat them way better than I ever would myself, I want them to have the best shot at life they can have. Sure don't want them to feel as cruddy as I do.

Hey it was good chatting buddy sorry if I get long winded, I'm off with nothing much to do today and just trying to pass the time.

In closing though, we all know cancer is on the rise like it never has been before, and it's hard for man to really say why we are seeing it so often, but I sure don't want to see my youngens suffer it or other illnesses.

Happy camping friend.

[ComfortEagle]

Originally Posted by kidharris

I don't understand this conversation, what do you mean 30K of air conditioning. 30k btu, 30k tons, 30k watts

I was repeating what the OP (Patrick) had stated, that he uses "2x 15k RV roof air units" to cool his bus. I didn't bother to correct or question him, but I assume he would have meant "2x 15 ton units". Thank you for probing to clarify.

On a separate note, I am not disappointed to have unsubscribed from this thread...

[Borealis]

Originally Posted by PatrickBaptist

Big reason I love LED lights... I've got about half a pint of elemental mercury I've collected over the years.

Before someone jumps on LED lights as a major health risk, I think you're referring to the old-style mercury vapour lamps. LED lights do NOT contain mercury. They do contain lead and arsenic, but since these don't turn to vapour and most of us don't eat LEDs, they are not a significant health risk to the occupants of your home. At least not any more of a risk than a soldered connection in your TV or cell phone.

I too recall the days of playing with liquid mercury in school. We also used asbestos powder as modelling clay. Doctors used to tell people they should take up smoking and saccharin in your coffee didn't make you grow three heads. It wasn't that many years ago that contractors were using urea and formaldehyde to create foam insulation in our homes. Today they still use urea formaldehyde to make particle board, plywood and even fabrics such as Rayon.

This thread seems like a tempest in a teapot. Diesel fumes pose a far more significant threat to the health of your family. Every time you start your bus and can smell exhaust fumes or come inside smelling like a diesel mechanic, you're polluting your living space. If in the construction of your bus, you used plywood, paint, glue, man-made fabrics on your cushions or curtains... all of these are constantly out-gassing toxins straight into your living space. If you use chemical cleaners, detergents, de-odourizers or fry with oil, you're constantly introducing hazardous products to your living space.

At least with foam insulation, the product is sealed between the outer skin of your bus and your properly installed vapour barrier. The volume of any out-gassed toxins from your buried insulation will be near-zero since no air is moving between these spaces. By definition, we're talking about "closed cell foam" so there's very little movement of air/gas through the material. Most of the out-gassing of un-reacted agents is going to occur in the first few hours after application, while you're still actively ventilating the worksite.

I'm not saying you should bathe in wiper fluid or drink motor oil, nor would I ignore wearing PPE and carefully follow instructions while applying the foam. The binary chemicals to make the foam are nasty in their separate containers. But then so are sodium and chlorine. Together those two combine to form common table salt.

Bottom line is the world is filled with hazardous materials. That's one of the reasons why we use air exchangers in our homes (and buses) to ensure a clean supply of tempered fresh air and to continuously extract off-gassed toxins from our living space. Homes (and buses) with mold or other chronic environmental issues are ill-constructed. They lack some combination of i) tight outer weather seal, ii) sufficient insulation, iii) tight inner vapour barrier, iv) adequate airflow.

Just like your body, your bus needs to breathe.

[Firepuncher]

Originally Posted by Borealis

Before someone jumps on LED lights as a major health risk, I think you're referring to the old-style mercury vapour lamps. LED lights do NOT contain mercury. They do contain lead and arsenic, but since these don't turn to vapour and most of us don't eat LEDs, they are not a significant health risk to the occupants of your home. At least not any more of a risk than a soldered connection in your TV or cell phone.

I too recall the days of playing with liquid mercury in school. We also used asbestos powder as modelling clay. Doctors used to tell people they should take up smoking and saccharin in your coffee didn't make you grow three heads. It wasn't that many years ago that contractors were using urea and formaldehyde to create foam insulation in our homes. Today they still use urea formaldehyde to make particle board, plywood and even fabrics such as Rayon.

This thread seems like a tempest in a teapot. Diesel fumes pose a far more significant threat to the health of your family. Every time you start your bus and can smell exhaust fumes or come inside smelling like a diesel mechanic, you're polluting your living space. If in the construction of your bus, you used plywood, paint, glue, man-made fabrics on your cushions or curtains... all of these are constantly out-gassing toxins straight into your living space. If you use chemical cleaners, detergents, de-odourizers or fry with oil, you're constantly introducing hazardous products to your living space.

At least with foam insulation, the product is sealed between the outer skin of your bus and your properly installed vapour barrier. The volume of any out-gassed toxins from your buried insulation will be near-zero since no air is moving between these spaces. By definition, we're talking about "closed cell foam" so there's very little movement of air/gas through the material. Most of the out-gassing of un-reacted agents is going to occur in the first few hours after application, while you're still actively ventilating the worksite.

I'm not saying you should bathe in wiper fluid or drink motor oil, nor would I ignore wearing PPE and carefully follow instructions while applying the foam. The binary chemicals to make the foam are nasty in their separate containers. But then so are sodium and chlorine. Together those two combine to form common table salt.

Bottom line is the world is filled with hazardous materials. That's one of the reasons why we use air exchangers in our homes (and buses) to ensure a clean supply of tempered fresh air and to continuously extract off-gassed toxins from our living space. Homes (and buses) with mold or other chronic environmental issues are ill-constructed. They lack some combination of i) tight outer weather seal, ii) sufficient insulation, iii) tight inner vapour barrier, iv) adequate airflow.

Just like your body, your bus needs to breathe.

Jeez man, once again, all that he said

Point that I have rarely heard here that I'd like to know is how many bus owners use an HRV in their rolling homes? Heat recovery ventilator, I know it will be a critical part of my spray foamed air tight tin can home on wheels

Steve

[EastCoastCB]

Originally Posted by ComfortEagle

I was repeating what the OP (Patrick) had stated, that he uses "2x 15k RV roof air units" to cool his bus. I didn't bother to correct or question him, but I assume he would have meant "2x 15 ton units". Thank you for probing to clarify.

On a separate note, I am not disappointed to have unsubscribed from this thread...

I think 2x15k refers to two 15k btu rooftop units.

[Borealis]

Originally Posted by Firepuncher

Jeez man, once again, all that he said

Point that I have rarely heard here that I'd like to know is how many bus owners use an HRV in their rolling homes? Heat recovery ventilator, I know it will be a critical part of my spray foamed air tight tin can home on wheels

Steve

Steve, why don't we take the HRV discussion to a new thread? I'll let you start it off.

[PatrickBaptist]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I think 2x15k refers to two 15k btu rooftop units.

Yeah buddy, you are right. 15k as in BTU. LOL 15ton.

[Firepuncher]

Hey Borealis, done phew!

[PatrickBaptist]

Originally Posted by Borealis

Before someone jumps on LED lights as a major health risk, I think you're referring to the old-style mercury vapour lamps. LED lights do NOT contain mercury. They do contain lead and arsenic, but since these don't turn to vapour and most of us don't eat LEDs, they are not a significant health risk to the occupants of your home. At least not any more of a risk than a soldered connection in your TV or cell phone.

I too recall the days of playing with liquid mercury in school. We also used asbestos powder as modelling clay. Doctors used to tell people they should take up smoking and saccharin in your coffee didn't make you grow three heads. It wasn't that many years ago that contractors were using urea and formaldehyde to create foam insulation in our homes. Today they still use urea formaldehyde to make particle board, plywood and even fabrics such as Rayon.

This thread seems like a tempest in a teapot. Diesel fumes pose a far more significant threat to the health of your family. Every time you start your bus and can smell exhaust fumes or come inside smelling like a diesel mechanic, you're polluting your living space. If in the construction of your bus, you used plywood, paint, glue, man-made fabrics on your cushions or curtains... all of these are constantly out-gassing toxins straight into your living space. If you use chemical cleaners, detergents, de-odourizers or fry with oil, you're constantly introducing hazardous products to your living space.

At least with foam insulation, the product is sealed between the outer skin of your bus and your properly installed vapour barrier. The volume of any out-gassed toxins from your buried insulation will be near-zero since no air is moving between these spaces. By definition, we're talking about "closed cell foam" so there's very little movement of air/gas through the material. Most of the out-gassing of un-reacted agents is going to occur in the first few hours after application, while you're still actively ventilating the worksite.

I'm not saying you should bathe in wiper fluid or drink motor oil, nor would I ignore wearing PPE and carefully follow instructions while applying the foam. The binary chemicals to make the foam are nasty in their separate containers. But then so are sodium and chlorine. Together those two combine to form common table salt.

Bottom line is the world is filled with hazardous materials. That's one of the reasons why we use air exchangers in our homes (and buses) to ensure a clean supply of tempered fresh air and to continuously extract off-gassed toxins from our living space. Homes (and buses) with mold or other chronic environmental issues are ill-constructed. They lack some combination of i) tight outer weather seal, ii) sufficient insulation, iii) tight inner vapour barrier, iv) adequate airflow.

Just like your body, your bus needs to breathe.

" LED lights do NOT contain mercury." I was not implying that at all, nor was I talking about mercury vapor lamps/MH lamps either. Was talking about LEDs being safer than florescent bulbs.
I also don't ever smell exhaust inside my bus.
Talking about cleaners, try using ISO Alcohol and good ol vinegar is the best cleaners to use. Can't remember the name of the stuff I dump in the clothes washer, but it's not a detergent, it's a real soap. Though if MY cloths are bad I use some Pine-Sol. "de-odourizers" carbon scrubber removes any kind of smells and you wouldn't need any air fresheners.

" binary chemicals to make the foam are nasty in their separate containers. But then so are sodium and chlorine. Together those two combine to form common table salt." How does that relate? Is it safe to eat the foam just as table salt is? No? Then that isn't quite comparable, plus your much better off eating the pink Himalayan salt rather than the normal ol white table salt.

But you are right, the world is full of health hazards, they make nuclear fuel for the navy in my town, untelling what one breathes in some days...
I agree, can't remove it all, just doing the best I can to mitigate it. Didn't say foam board is toxic free or anything and that's what I used.
Any material I bought it sat out for months, the shower board I bought sit outside for a year, man was that the worst stinking stuff I've ever.....

I haven't read though that everyone puts in the vapor barrier when installing the foam. I am trying to make mine air tight unless the window is open, kinda defeats the purpose of insulating it if I'm going to let outside are come in and make it colder in the winter or hotter in the summer... Same reason I can ever smell that engine in the rear of the bus, it's air tight back there and there is no exhaust piping going from the front, or a leaking dog hose (had those pleasures in a class a motor home and never again).

Anyways I love you guys weather we agree or will not, it's ok, we can all have it the way we want. I'm just stating my reasons, I'm not telling you that you have to do it that way or belittling you for not.

[ComfortEagle]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

I think 2x15k refers to two 15k btu rooftop units.

Doh.... Belay my last. Rick the doofus strikes again...

[PatrickBaptist]

Originally Posted by ComfortEagle

Doh.... Belay my last. Rick the doofus strikes again...

It's ok friend I don't hold it against ya. I wasn't specific anyways.
All of us have made the same kinda mistake.

[PNW_Steve]

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB

My friends dad yells at the tv in unnatural ways.

So do I.

Should I be concerned?

[wrenchtech]

I follow the growing field of residential building science fairly closely. One of the great truths of this business seems to be that no matter how careful you are about trying to keep water out of your building envelope, you are never going to be 100% successful, and so it is imperative that whatever water does make its way into your structures, is able to get out before it can destroy your building materials and/or allow mold to grow. I see the exterior sheetmetal skin of a bus as an impermeable outer layer, a vapor barrier if you will. Installing a vapor barrier on the interior side of the insulation when you have this impermeable outer wall seems to me to be a prescription for trouble. If you have, for example, a window that leaks into the inside of the wall, where is that water going to go if both the inside and outside layers are sealed up tight? The only solution I can see is to install some type of insulation that can fill the void entirely, an insulation that also will not absorb any water and ideally, will fully adhere to the substrate. Sounds like closed cell foam to me. That said I am not unconcerned about the possible health consequences of those materials. It is otherwise a great solution for the kind of temps we experience here in Wisconsin.

I am a big fan of rock wool for insulating framed residences, and I am tempted to use it in my bus build, but I am thinking it would have to be installed without a vapor barrier and it would best be paired with a very breathable finish wall so that any moisture in the wall cavity could dry very quickly to the interior of the bus. This approach would also require measures to control humidity in the interior space of the bus that would probably have to include a heat recovery ventilator (HRV) and a furnace that didn't add to the moisture burden.