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-   -   DT466E Inframe Rebuild (https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f37/dt466e-inframe-rebuild-24752.html)

Meddle 10-29-2018 09:04 PM

DT466E Inframe Rebuild
 
I don't post often but this has to be shared. I have owned my bus for over 2 years now. It has a DT466E. I have put very few miles on it because there were things that needed to be dealt with. I have driven it about every other month. Recently, I took the bus out for a hill run / test and it failed miserably. By the volume of coolant in my oil, I believe I blew 1 or more cylinder liner seals. So now I am doing an in-frame rebuild. This where it gets fun. My bus is parked on the street in front of my house. The drivers side wheels are on rough asphalt. The door side wheels and under the bus is crushed mine rock. A cherry picker will not work for pulling the head. Besides, I'm trying to do this under the radar. Since it is parked on the street, I would prefer the neighbors not know that the engine is torn apart and the bus is immobile. I took some measurements and found that once the valve cover, injectors and rocker assembly are removed I have about 7" of clearance between the top of the head and the opening thru the firewall. I fabricated a low profile bracket to bolt to the head. Then I positioned a furniture moving dolly inside the bus directly behind the engine and as close as I could to the engine. On the dolly I stacked a couple of 4x6s crosswise and used woodworking clamps to secure them in place on the dolly. The last item was a 13 foot piece of 1.5" box tube. It attached to a central point on the head bracket and rested on the 4x6s as a pivot point. Once i broke the head loose with a pry bar, all I had to do was apply about 40 lbs of pressure to my 13 foot lever and the head lifted right up. I guess I judged the balance point of the head pretty well because when lifted it did not tilt at all. Once the head was clear of the block I just rolled the whole thing towards the rear of the bus. Bam!! Head inside the bus. One man. No cherry picker! It will be a 2 man operation to re-install the
head. I will need someone to operate the lever while I guide the head into place. That's all for now. This will be an ongoing thread. I will share my experience as I find time.

Iceni John 10-29-2018 09:13 PM

Did you overheat it? What caused the liner seals to fail? If you replace them now, what's to prevent this happening again?

John

Meddle 10-29-2018 09:27 PM

I'm thinking the seals were old and brittle. I already disassembled the oil cooler. The seals in it had almost no elasticity. They cracked when I removed them. I'm guessing the cylinder seals will be the same. I will know this weekend when I pull them. As far as what really caused it, it doesn't really matter. When putting this much time and money into something, I'm rebuilding / replacing pretty much everything.

Meddle 10-29-2018 09:30 PM

Including the radiator.

cadillackid 10-29-2018 09:36 PM

its not uncommon for an engine that sits a lot to end up with dried seals.. some guys drop the pan and pressurize the system to see where the coolant is coming from.. but since you have the head off may as well pull the liners and piston / ring it.. since you are In-framing you will likely want to have that head worked.. make sure the injector cups arent the source of the leak and have the head tested and planed if needbe..



when you get the liners out check them for cavitation, that can be the source of failed seals. and symptoims of past poor coolant maintenance.. (you'll replace all the coolant and add correct SCA.. or you can go with a polyorganic synthetic coolant like Amsoil's High performance coolant and not have to worry about SCA additives)..



Love your jig for pulling the head and taking it Inside! great stuff!
-Christopher

Meddle 10-29-2018 09:45 PM

Thanks for the compliment Christopher. I was using the Navistar recomennded Fleetguard coolant, no additives required per Navistar.

Meddle 10-29-2018 09:52 PM

I've put only a couple hundred miles on the bus. The one thing I know is when I bought the bus, it had green coolant in it. It will be interesting to see if I have any cavitation damage. Hopefully if present it will be contained to the cylinder liners. To tell the truth, I'm not worried. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be a standard rebuild. Knock on wood!!

FamilyCircus 10-29-2018 11:08 PM

5 Attachment(s)
I am doing the same thing to my DT466E, this one was overheated I assume in a previous life and the #6 line seals failed.

I work at a Cummins shop and have spoke to a few techs that came from Navistar and they all tell me the same thing, if these over heat even a little #6 goes first. My 80 yr old dad and I removed the head together by hand.

This is a very easy engine to work on, at least it is in my type D bus.

Here are some pictures of the damage. #6 and #5 pistons and liners.

cadillackid 10-30-2018 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meddle (Post 296500)
I've put only a couple hundred miles on the bus. The one thing I know is when I bought the bus, it had green coolant in it. It will be interesting to see if I have any cavitation damage. Hopefully if present it will be contained to the cylinder liners. To tell the truth, I'm not worried. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be a standard rebuild. Knock on wood!!

The coolant you are using now is the right stuff. Green coolant is often neglected and thatís where issues arise. Iíve never seen block damage , just the liners. As family circus mentioned it doesnít take much to damage these seals. Running the temp up to 230-240 is sometimes all it takes to make those seals brittle .. an air bubble trapped after a coolant loss, bad fan clutch etc in its past life.

On these the computer hard stores the miles and hours of any overheats or low oil conditions in its life. I realize most arebtvscan tool geeks but if anyone looking to buy a bus has access to a reader itís a good idea to scan it.

Rent the liner removal tool if you can and be extra careful to get them installed precisely.

Iím assuming you are also going to replace your bearings since youíll be in the pan to pull the pistons.

Once you complete this youíll be ready to roll for a good long time.

Christopher

Meddle 11-01-2018 08:50 PM

Yes, I'm going to replace the main and rod bearings. I'm going to try to remove the liners from below using a brass drift punch. If that doesn't work I will just fabricate a puller. Since I had to pull the harmonic balancer to get to the bolts for the oil pump pickup tube, I'm going to check out the oil pump and replace seal since it's accessible. I didn't get the engine drained until a week after the catastrophe. Under the valve cover was pretty ugly but it all just wiped out using a lot of paper towels. When I pulled the pan, the bottom end looked pristine. Just a little sludge in the bottom of the pan. I just want to make sure the oil pump is all within spec. I'm going to be buying my rebuild kit soon. Does anyone out there have some professional experience with aftermarket rebuild kit vs Navistar OEM kit? I think I'm leaning towards the OEM kit, just because. Another question. Navistar says use new bolts on head, rod and main bearings. A lot of what I've watched and read says they can be reused with no adverse affect. Anyone out there with reused bolts and a good amount of miles on them? Thanks in advance for any input!

cadillackid 11-01-2018 09:53 PM

I came from a background of hotrodding.. and anytime I pulled apart an engine it always got new fasteners.. I also carefully cleaned the bolt holes in the block with a thread chaser (mainly the mains and heads)..



im wierd (and a tool geek).. id probably rent the liner puller / imstaller.. but if you can get them R and R without damaging the block then any way you choose is fine. the yucky stuff shouldnt be an issue in the head.. you'll likely want to send it out for valve work anyway.. it will come back clean.



my typical way was with any new engine build or rebuild was put it together, perform whatever run-in / break-in initial period was required, then I changed the oil and filters.. (usually less than 100 miles in).. that always got rid of anything i missed..

-Christopher

Ronnie 11-02-2018 05:10 AM

A lot of head bolts now are stretch to yield, and can not be reused because they are now stretched, and you will not get correct torque on them if used again.

boojiewoojie 11-02-2018 08:24 PM

This is the kit I used and I've put about 30k on it since the rebuild:
International Navistar DT466E Inframe-Overhaul Engine Rebuild Kit
My mechanic who has rebuilt many engines over the years said it was the same as the OEM kit.
The early 2000's DT466E had issues with the seals reacting to the coolant/cavitation because if I remember correctly they were using some kind of long life coolant. They changed the antifreeze recommendations (?) and maybe the chemical properties of the seals (?) ...really just speaking from memory here.
Yeah, don't ever use the green stuff.

I'm not a mechanic but he let me hang out in the shop and watch them do the work. I bought the parts and took the head to a place in Chattanooga to get re-done. Looked fairly straightforward, almost think I could do it next time.

Ran great afterwards but every once in a while it would seem to lose a little power. Figured out that one of the seals on an injector wasn't seated right. Amazing what little things can do to affect an engine.

+1 on the new radiator. When my temps come up to 200 degrees I keep an eyeball glued to the gauge. Don't ever want to overheat again!

EastCoastCB 11-03-2018 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojiewoojie (Post 297019)
This is the kit I used and I've put about 30k on it since the rebuild:
International Navistar DT466E Inframe-Overhaul Engine Rebuild Kit
My mechanic who has rebuilt many engines over the years said it was the same as the OEM kit.
The early 2000's DT466E had issues with the seals reacting to the coolant/cavitation because if I remember correctly they were using some kind of long life coolant. They changed the antifreeze recommendations (?) and maybe the chemical properties of the seals (?) ...really just speaking from memory here.
Yeah, don't ever use the green stuff.

I'm not a mechanic but he let me hang out in the shop and watch them do the work. I bought the parts and took the head to a place in Chattanooga to get re-done. Looked fairly straightforward, almost think I could do it next time.

Ran great afterwards but every once in a while it would seem to lose a little power. Figured out that one of the seals on an injector wasn't seated right. Amazing what little things can do to affect an engine.

+1 on the new radiator. When my temps come up to 200 degrees I keep an eyeball glued to the gauge. Don't ever want to overheat again!

The red or blue coolant are what ate away the innards of my DT.

jazty 11-03-2018 09:09 AM

As a side note, it's pretty easy to identify a torque-to-yield bolt vs a standard bolt. TTY bolts thin out the shaft so that's the part that stretches. The weakest point on a normal bolt is the threaded area since it has the least material. All that being said, for the amount of work you're doing I would recommend replacing the head bolts. If it does use normal bolts and any stretch has occurred in the threaded area than it is compromised. If it used TTY bolts then by their inherent nature they will be compromised.
I reuse non-TTY bolts on some projects. My Subaru with 380000kms? Yep. Not buying any more parts for that car than I need to (it's now at 410000km) and it doesn't use TTY bolts. A snowblower engine? Sure.
Something as expensive and time consuming as a DT466? Hell no. ��
https://slideplayer.com/slide/356022...ield+bolts.jpg

cadillackid 11-03-2018 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastCoastCB (Post 297038)
The red or blue coolant are what ate away the innards of my DT.




navistar at some point released a TSI on various coolants.. I know on my 444E it was precisely stated that there were certain serial number cutoffs for when and when not to use ELC coolants..



that said aftermarket ELC synthetic coolants were released to combat and simplify the issues of what to use and how to maintain it..



while the 466E isnt a ford powerstroke. it still suffered manhy of the coolant related issues that various powerstrokes sufered (yes even the venerable 7.3)..



powerstrokehelp did a video on what coolants in the V-8s wewre acceptable and what years..



I went to an AMSOIL syunthetic coolant in my 444E and never looked back..

my DTA360 still has standard coolant with the SCA and i have to test-strip it periodically..



if you dont mind test-strippimng and maintaining / changing your coolant every couple years then standard green with additive and the Pre-charged time-release coolant filter seems to be safe for all of the DT's.



the synthetic should also be safe.. i just havent put it in mine yet.. but the blue and standard red ELC seems to be lethal to engines that dont mjatch the proper cut-off dates for it.. (and even some that are!)



-Christopher

Meddle 11-21-2018 07:36 PM

Thank you all for the input on bolt reuse. I will go with new bolts. Well, I got the pistons, rods and liners pulled. Piston #s 1 & 5 have scoring on the piston skirts. # 1 is scored enough that it had aluminum smeared into the oil ring and groove which means the oil ring was no longer free floating. I doubt if it would have gone to many more miles without seizing. When I pulled the liners, it wasn't a surprise to find the seals blown on cylinders 1 & 5
The rod bearings look really good. No unusual wear patterns. So far I have only pulled 1 main bearing cap and it looked good to. Right now I'm looking for a local shop to rebuild my head.
I think I am going to add 2 non electronic coolant temp gauges. One near the thermostat and another as far to the rear of the engine as I can. I do not want to do this again!

FamilyCircus 11-23-2018 11:37 AM

Very good Idea
 
I like the idea of a rear temp gauge.
From what I've have heard from all the techs here that have Navistar experience, if these DT466 engines get hot a little, they roast the liner seals.

From looking at my engine cooling package, their side by side radiators are a big joke for over the road use. I am looking at installing the cooling package from a Blue Bird with the Cummins engine or the cooling package from a 4900 or 4700 International truck. It has the up and over charge air cooler and the notches in the top tank of the radiator.

The lower hose connection is a bit different but its just about finding the right hose to fit.

The idea is to beef up the cooling package as much as possible to prevent this from happening again. Stop and go school use is far different from driving up the Rocky mountains with a full load of kids, food, water, batteries and fuel at 70 mph.

Ill keep ya'll up to date with my cooling package modifications.

EastCoastCB 11-23-2018 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FamilyCircus (Post 299133)
I like the idea of a rear temp gauge.
From what I've have heard from all the techs here that have Navistar experience, if these DT466 engines get hot a little, they roast the liner seals.

From looking at my engine cooling package, their side by side radiators are a big joke for over the road use. I am looking at installing the cooling package from a Blue Bird with the Cummins engine or the cooling package from a 4900 or 4700 International truck. It has the up and over charge air cooler and the notches in the top tank of the radiator.

The lower hose connection is a bit different but its just about finding the right hose to fit.

The idea is to beef up the cooling package as much as possible to prevent this from happening again. Stop and go school use is far different from driving up the Rocky mountains with a full load of kids, food, water, batteries and fuel at 70 mph.

Ill keep ya'll up to date with my cooling package modifications.

If you can find a radiator setup for a 2003 or 2004 IC CE300 it has a full rad and full I/C. Nice setup. I've got this on my CE300.

boojiewoojie 11-23-2018 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FamilyCircus (Post 299133)
I like the idea of a rear temp gauge.
From what I've have heard from all the techs here that have Navistar experience, if these DT466 engines get hot a little, they roast the liner seals.

From looking at my engine cooling package, their side by side radiators are a big joke for over the road use. I am looking at installing the cooling package from a Blue Bird with the Cummins engine or the cooling package from a 4900 or 4700 International truck. It has the up and over charge air cooler and the notches in the top tank of the radiator.

The lower hose connection is a bit different but its just about finding the right hose to fit.

The idea is to beef up the cooling package as much as possible to prevent this from happening again. Stop and go school use is far different from driving up the Rocky mountains with a full load of kids, food, water, batteries and fuel at 70 mph.

Ill keep ya'll up to date with my cooling package modifications.

I'll subscribe to that thread!


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