2005 BlueBird All American A3RE J1587/J1939

[tomas-bluebird]

Hello all, I have bus mentioned in headline with CAT C7 and Allison MD3060 with push button selector. Dash seem to be provided by Actia.

Problem is that some dials on my cluster are not working + I would like to see more information than I have available (cruise control set speed, engine oil temp, transmission temp, currently engaged gear and some more).

I was able to connect to J1587 my bus has via computer and writing simple python script starting sniffing data - I verified I am getting everything I need from engine, as I decoded myself or with help of C7 service manual. I was able to get even instantaneous fuel mpg which is imho going to be helpful too.

Now question #1: for my trans, I am able to decode both, selected (via push button) and engaged gear. Trans temp is funky though, I wasn’t able to get reliable info about turbine and oss rpm either. Does anyone have J1587 specs for MD3060?

Question #2: ODO miles are provided only via cluster - engine has something saved but the value is about 5mil and doesn’t seem to be reliable. I scanned whole log I got from 13 min drive and there is absolutely no info about miles in my range. I am also not getting any msg from cluster (which also why, not needed to anything). Anyone knows how to access this?

Whole idea is that I will implement custom screen style dash using N100 computer and scripts I have created so far. I can’t find service manual for my BlueBird anywhere, I see older up to 2003 which doesn’t have instrument cluster specs and newer 2008 which has updated dash and absolutely no info about J1587 as that year completely switched to J1939.

I also noticed that engine & bus has connected J1939, most likely for communication in between engine and trans, it might be under dash too but diag connector has J1587 pins only. Maybe I need to add other pins for J1939 but before I do so, I want to ask if anyone can help with J1587 route.

Thank you in advance!

(Attaching picmof dash for reference)

 

[ewo1]

Does anyone have J1587 specs for MD3060?

I am not understanding what you are asking for here....

I have no idea if this doc (2006) will help you at all as I am clueless to programming stuff but I do see reference to ACTIA parts in this manual.

 

[ewo1]

J1587 vs J1939 - Key Differences Table​

J1587 vs J1939: Understanding the Key Differences

www.simmasoftware.com

ACTIA-Instrument Cluster Service Guide
Date: 11/17/08

 

[ewo1]

Now question #1: for my trans, I am able to decode both, selected (via push button) and engaged gear. Trans temp is funky though, I wasn’t able to get reliable info about turbine and oss rpm either. Does anyone have J1587 specs for MD3060?

I see older up to 2003 which doesn’t have instrument cluster specs and newer 2008 which has updated dash and absolutely no info about J1587 as that year completely switched to J1939.


I also noticed that engine & bus has connected J1939, most likely for communication in between engine and trans, it might be under dash too but diag connector has J1587 pins only. Maybe I need to add other pins for J1939 but before I do so, I want to ask if anyone can help with J1587 route.

Thank you in advance!

(Attaching picmof dash for reference)

Here is a link to the Allison troubleshooting manual, TS3989EN.

I used control "F" and searched for J1587, got back 24 references.
hopefully there is info there to help you go forward.

 

[tomas-bluebird]

I am not understanding what you are asking for here....

I have no idea if this doc (2006) will help you at all as I am clueless to programming stuff but I do see reference to ACTIA parts in this manual.

@ewo1 first, thank you so much for quick response and providing all of these.

This is interesting to see - it's Vision bus, documentation is from 2004 but it describes "newer" style dash providing more information over J1939 link rather than J1708/J1587 link like in my case. All American buses got this new style dashes (just a little bit differently organized) in 2008 model going forward - in that manual I found for AA buses, the content is pretty much the same.

Yes, this kind of manual is what I was looking for my case, this is just not the model I need.

J1708/J1587 was completely phase out in most cases in years 2007/2008 and switched to J1939, which is why all documentations dated after this date don't provide much info for older standard. While I am 80% confident that I should be able to connect to J1939 and get information I needed, I don't know how much I want to confuse anyone in the future by doing so - my bus has only J1708/J1587 pins in diag (Deutsch-9) connector exposed and J1939 pins are blank.

My assumption is: when I connect official diag tool over the J1708/J1587, I should be able to see all information available (even if on demand) including those managed by dash module or body module (not denying that it can live there and my dash doc hunting might be useless). Not denying that the phone dash is running on J1939 only already, however. Even the BlueBird Vision manual from 2008 confirms both protocols being connected from dashboard with the bus - 2011 document I found doesn't have older standard connected anymore.

The manual for Allison would be great, but yours is for 4th generation and I have 3rd gen. There is a lot of mismatch. I should have mentioned in the original post.

 

[nikitis]

You are incorrect on the years J1939 was produced. They didn't switch in 2007/2008, they switched about 4-8 years earlier. If you have a MD3060 trans your bus is solely wired for J1939 and not J1587. Quick explanation.

J1708 is better reference material for the older CAN Bus networks (J1708/J1587 will be referenced as J1708 going foward.) Any references to understanding on past posts on this forum for J1587 will be referenced and searched for with the term "J1708".

Now J1708 is the grey 6 port plug. Only makes use of 4 of the pins though, 2 data lines(twisted pair), 1 power, 1 ground.
J1939 ports have 9 port plug, but adds a couple more data lines plus has J1708 data lines are built in as well into the 9 port in case there is some older equipment still requiring such an older network AND assuming your bus has a J1708 network wired up into it. (It very likely does not on buses. Some trucks had both networks but as far as I'm aware, I've not seen any buses come out of factory with both, it's either or.

Most 1990's buses are J1708, and early 2000's started with J1939 networks. Not 2007/2008. Some trucks had J1708 up until 2007/2008, and when it was completely phased out but that is mostly regarding trucks not buses.

Your MD3060 has to have J1939, as they never came working out of factory with older J1708 networks. (I have confirmed with an Allison Guru who works at the company that there was indeed an option to turn on J1708 with newer transmissions but Allison would have to enable it, and it's untested and never really used.) For your purposes you will be running and doing everything likely on J1939 on your bus because your transmissions TCM requires a faster network to operate from and get TPS (Throttle positioning System) data, and RPM's etc.

A good rule of thumb to go by with buses is, if it has an AT545, it's J1708, if it has an AT1000+ or newer transmission, it's J1939 network because all of those newer transmissions requires J1939 to work.

There's also no BCM on any J1708 buses as they also required J1939 networks to operate. This should clear things up regarding networks on the buses.

 

[ewo1]

@ewo1 first, thank you so much for quick response and providing all of these.

The manual for Allison would be great, but yours is for 4th generation and I have 3rd gen. There is a lot of mismatch. I should have mentioned in the original post.

TS2973EN 3rd gen Allison 3000 troubleshooting manual
436 pages

Did a control F search for J1587, 10 references found. I uploaded the communications port pinout for reference.

 

[ewo1]

Like I said, i know SQUAT about programming but I am always willing to learn a bit and help out where I can.

Found this DOC, only you can say if it is useful in your efforts.
225 pages

SAE J1587 Revised FEB2002
Electronic Data Interchange Between Microcomputer Systems in Heavy-Duty Vehicle Application

 

[nikitis]

I'll be more clear.

SAE uses J1708 and J1587 together as J1708 is the hardware layer (how it's wired, and ECM), and J1587 is the higher layer software protocols used over J1708. So SAE combines the two together as one working network system.

EWO1 is giving out the actual standards documentation there for the higher protocol software layer which you need for your python derivations but you also want to understand the hardware layer.

The hardware layer is basically an old school token ring network with 120 ohm terminators on the end. The tech pre-dates ethernet in common use, and used what networks electronically were available at the time, and SAE renamed all the terminologies but the technology at the heart is a token ring network in hardware even though they will never call it that.

Token rings are just that connection rings that have to go around to every device and back again to the origin machine in a loop. Physically in a vehicle we don't have devices shaped in a ring but more like a string.

Imagine in your head a circle, grabbing both sides with your hands and pulling them outwards till the upper line of the circle and bottom line of the cirlce come together and appears straight. It looks like one line now but it's two lines that connect on the ends using "Terminators" Terminators actually act to circle back the packets which still keeps it like a circle electronically functioning but in a straight line.


Point is, Electrically it's pretty much identical to a token ring network, but software wise is not a token ring network. Works similarly but uses J1587 protocols instead. And doesn't use full on PC's but devices in place of PC's which are smart enough to relay the packet around in the token ring.

Each device gets an ID value when it joins the J1587 network. ID's are assigned on J1587 typically on first come first serve, and can change on every ignition start of your bus. ECM's start the process so they are 99.999999% of the time the first device on the network, but other devices are typically in order electrically and similarly get the same ID ever crank up as well, but not 100% of the time. (I've tested this personally). Order of ID that devices get doesn't always matter when trying to manipulate the protocol in software, (except for the ECM), but the call codes they send do, and that's what you have to translate from HEX to human readable which you have begun to do with your python script.

But in your case you are using J1939 if you have a MD3060, and not J1708/J1587. J1939 uses a newer version of J1587 called CANBUS and is very similar, slightly faster, and slighly more complex. J1708 uses like 9kbps connections on average, while CANBUS uses up to 200-500kbps depending on length and resistance. J1939 does use ID system similar to J1587 and codes. But you're gonna want to learn CANBUS for J1939.

Search for terms like Manipulating CANBUS with Python, and there's likely something already out there for you as you definitely aren't the first person wanting to write their own dash interpreting software.

 

[tomas-bluebird]

@nikitis Thank you for explanation however I know the difference in between J1939 and J1708/J1587. I should have been more clear - in 2007/2008 J1708/J1587 was completely phased out by manufacturers. Protocol J1939 at that point was defined for about 15-20 years and as you said, was being used for years.

Unfortunately, with the connector you are incorrect. Even tho I have 9 pin (two of them actually), J1939 is NOT connected through the port. It initially confused me as well and I hit hard with this finding. All American Blue Birds based on what I have found really didn't switch diagnostic interface until 2008, even though Vision was earlier. I can just hope that dash is running on J1939 as well...

Also, I said that my bus DOES have J1939, definitely used for communication in between engine and transmission, with potentially dashboard as well, which I wasn't able to confirm yet. However, as I said, this is not exposed to the diagnostic port.

Last night after doing decent research (and not finding anything I needed) I decided, that I will try to hunt down and splice to J1939 network, which should provide faster communication and more reliable data anyway. I have needed hardware already (bought by mistake when I thought I do have J1939) so it's really just about finding the wires now.

@ewo1 Thank you for the transmission manual, this is going to be super helpful for the future maintenance.

 

[nikitis]

The yellow and green wires are the data lines for J1939. You could T-into them directly off of the Transmissions TCM if you want to do some splicing, and cannot find them near the port.

If you do have a second port that's 9 port, is it missing most of the pins minus 4 pins? If so this was likely added by the previous owner. They sell plenty of 6 port to 9 port plugs for use of devices like "Bluefire" which operate on both J1708 and J1939 systems but only has a 9 port plug with 4 actual pins which are actually just the J1708 pins in a 9-port plug.

So the plug with only 4 actually metal pins but empty on the rest of them is likely the J1708 port. This is a J1708 to J1939 adaptor, and it is common for users of such devices to have this installed when they only have J1708 network and no J1939 network but have devices which are designed to plug into 9-port plugs only but are backward compatible to operate on J1708 networks such as a "Bluefire" device.

This would mean though that you likely have both networks in the bus if true, though I can't imagine what would use J1708 as the ECM has to be on J1939 along with the transmission. It's rare a bus has both, usually if it's on J1939 there's no need for J1708 and is not installed at the factory.

Was this transmission ever upgraded from a mechanical only transmission like an AT545 to an MD3060?

This could explain the two networks being present. What happens is a few people have the transmission upgraded from a J1708 only bus with an AT545, to say an MD3060 which requires J1939 network with the new TCM. They also make a translator device which can translate J1708 commands for this purpose to J1939 signals and it allows the newer better transmission to work with the older J1708 ECM. Again most buses never come with both networks, so there has to be some reason someone installed the second network into it. Transmission upgrades is the most common reason, but maybe the prior owner had some other specialty device that required it?


Pic below of one such adaptor. 6 port to 9 port, but is still operating only over J1708.

Only really has 4 pins. If your 9 port is like this, then it's truly only J1708 on that one.

 

[magnakansas]

If I recall correctly, diverdude, during transmission swap, had a bus with two different diagnostics connectors, new and old one one harness.

William

 

[tomas-bluebird]

@nikitis Thank you for all the notes, I took a while before another reply because I wanted to go through schematics one more time before I put here anything.

First about the transmission question, no swap, serial N/O matches BlueBird vantage portal, sticker which was inside the bus and type mentioned in vantage portal too.

Second, the two ports are there because this is RE, so one is in engine compartment and other under dash. Both 9 pin, both equally connected (even tho the one in engine has f-ed up 12V power... :-( ).

Third... And this is becoming interesting, is what I found in schematics...

3.a. Even though port is marked as "1587 Tool Port", it describes connection A-J - so standard D9 port, however only A. B, F, G are populated. This is actually exactly the way how I found out that I am trying mistakenly connect to J1939 even it wasn't - and that time I wrongly marked my pins related to port orientation. - This is engine schematics, master chassis schematics shows J1939 described but unconnected.

3.b. This is what blows my mind and found that just now - it seems that engine and trans are communicating through J1587 protocol as this is the only one which seems to be connected in between trans and engine. Super weird, don't understand why, since C7 and MD3060 both supported J1939 at that time.

3.c. Even though I found out connection diagram for dash, it doesn't describe either J1587 or J1939 being used.

3.d. At the end, I was able to find out that things like tacho, speed, oil sensors, coolant temp etc. are connected directly to dash via dedicated ports in harness.

So at the end hunting for a dash schematics and service manual shows as useless since my dash is completely stupid and reads sensors directly. Not sure if that makes everything easier or not, but (and I might be wrong here) it almost seems that if I get rid of dash, I should still be able to run the bus normally and read everything from either J1587 or J1939 or implement arduino to read analog sensors. Gauge connector has 18 connected pins - 3 grounds, 1 illumination, other 2 power, 1 ignition - so pretty much just 11 pins to care of.

Now, it seems that ODO I have been hunting is saved in speedo directly - looks like P/N VDO 437-152/001/001 handles this. Mine was replaced in 2016 seems like but with equal functionality.

After looking up some of the part numbers from electrical diagrams, I FINALLY found this PDF:

https://www.centralstatesbus.com/wp-content/uploads/1999-2002_BBAA/0018400/110x.pdf

I have slightly updated version of this (like VDO tacho & speedo) but still, it explains a lot... (section about calibration of both tacho and speedo shows it's connected directly to pulse signals rather than relying on absolute numbers from J1587/J1939).

BUT - it seems that warning lights are from J1587. Seems I have more debugging to do

 

[nikitis]

So you could have two networks (A J1708 and J1939), it's not entirely unheard of but we don't see it often in buses which is why I suggest it maybe was modified later at some point. You're more likely to only see two networks if it began on J1708, and a modern transmission which requires J1939 is introduced. Also rare but does happen.

If your 9 port only has F and G, (A B are a given as it's power and ground on both 6 port and 9 ports) F and G are J1708/J1587 on a 9 port form factor. For the record I'd stop referring to it as J1587 as it will hurt your ability to look up references. Everyone references it simply as J1708.

Your schematics may label it as J1939, but it's not ACTUALLY a J1939, it's J1708 in a 9 port J1939 package.
Schematics don't expect YOU to know the difference and expect you to only see a green 9 port and expects you to only believe it's a J1939. This is misleading however. Identifying it by the pins is the most accurate way to go.

If you see only A,B,F,and G, then it's a J1708 network in a J1939 port running on software protocol J1587. So treat any software interacting with it as J1708 requirement. Screw the schematic, it's assuming you're dumb. Got it?

Now if you also have H,J,C,E,D pins populated as well in the 9 port then you do have a true J1939 netwwork running over CANBUS. Do any of YOUR ports you can find have these pins populated? If not then you ONLY have a J1708 network, and if you are actually running a MD3060, you have a true unicorn and someone at Allison used the unspoken switch in the TCM to make it work on J1708. I mean this is unheard of rare, but I did speak to an Allison old hat guy once and he told me it could be enabled but they don't do it.

It's also important to note that it's not 1 port per device. It's a network interface port, there may be multiple ports but it's all to the same network. There would NOT be two J1708 networks on a single bus (at least from factory), it will be one network all connected throughout the bus. There could be a port up front, and one in the back near the engine but they are connected together as one same network.

Your task for me now is to go to each port you find in your bus, and take pictures of the pins and list it here. If you only find 4 pins in the 9 port package, you truly ONLY have a J1708 network running over J1587 protocol. But what throws me off is you have an MD3060 so I think you would have to have a J1939 network as well, OR some Allison person at some point decided to do the rare enable of J1708 for the TCM.