'46 Chevy Shorty

[Tango-SKO]

Just wanted to confirm that I did NOT get a single thing done on my bus today. I did, however, manage to fabricate a lift/centerstand for a friends fully restored and fully kickass, 1973 CZ 400 MX bike so it was not a total loss. Those were some seriously competitive bikes in their day and remain thoroughly scary today...in a really good way.

 

[Robin97396]

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Sorry Jack.

 

[ol trunt]

But it sure does keep me out of the bars! Jack

 

[Tango-SKO]

But it sure does keep me out of the bars! Jack

I have that same problem Jack. Gotta' figure out a way to work at my neighborhood tavern.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Yep...still on hold for some critical parts being machined.

Meanwhile, I am pulling together the info necessary to mount and install the shifter & TCM on my Allison 6 speed. In the process of researching that data, I came across some more broadly relevant info for anyone with a 4th Generation Allison that touches on a topic I think we briefly discussed elsewhere on the site...

How to protect the trannies computer(s) from electrical damage due to welding or painting (yes..painting, if electrostatic).

The following was taken directly from Allisons directives to installers and should be read by anyone who owns a vehicle with any of these transmissions as the units can be damaged/destroyed if the proper precautions are not taken. And since so many folks here routinely use welding as part of their conversion process, I consider this information critical. Below is the data taken from the Allison bulletin...

Allison Section C:
Controls Component Installation Bulletin


3.2 Welding on the Vehicle

Take the following steps whenever welding on the vehicle:
• Always disconnect the harnesses from the TCM.
• Always disconnect the TCM power and ground circuits from the battery.
• Do not connect welding cables to controls components.
• Do not weld on controls components.
• Always protect controls components from sparks and heat.


3.3.1 Electrostatic Painting

If the vehicle chassis or body is painted using an electrostatic painting process, electrical voltage must not be discharged through the TCM. To prevent this possibility, Allison recommends installing the TCM after the electrostatic paint process is complete. If the TCM is installed prior to electrostatic painting, the vehicle

Builder must insure the following:

• that the TCM is not painted
• that the elements being painted are properly and continuously grounded to earth during the entire painting process. Allison Transmission is not responsible for TCM damage which results from improper grounding during

Electrostatic painting of the vehicle.

During electrostatic painting, the paint droplets receive an electrostatic charge which attracts them to earth-grounded surfaces. Voltages at the spray gun can exceed several thousand volts. The charge which builds up on an improperly chassis or body can be discharged through the TCM, resulting in damage to the TCM.


Given that Allisons are so prevalent in Skoolies, this seemed important enough to me that I thought everyone here should be made aware of these considerations. I know that I was misinformed. I previously understood that simply disconnecting the battery was adequate but that turns out to be a dangerous misconception based on this "official" data. Fortunately, I have yet to install my TCM. Glad I found this first.

 

[cadillackid]

Yep...still on hold for some critical parts being machined.

Meanwhile, I am pulling together the info necessary to mount and install the shifter & TCM on my Allison 6 speed. In the process of researching that data, I came across some more broadly relevant info for anyone with a 4th Generation Allison that touches on a topic I think we briefly discussed elsewhere on the site...

How to protect the trannies computer(s) from electrical damage due to welding or painting (yes..painting, if electrostatic).

The following was taken directly from Allisons directives to installers and should be read by anyone who owns a vehicle with any of these transmissions as the units can be damaged/destroyed if the proper precautions are not taken. And since so many folks here routinely use welding as part of their conversion process, I consider this information critical. Below is the data taken from the Allison bulletin...

Allison Section C:
Controls Component Installation Bulletin


3.2 Welding on the Vehicle

Take the following steps whenever welding on the vehicle:
• Always disconnect the harnesses from the TCM.
• Always disconnect the TCM power and ground circuits from the battery.
• Do not connect welding cables to controls components.
• Do not weld on controls components.
• Always protect controls components from sparks and heat.


3.3.1 Electrostatic Painting

If the vehicle chassis or body is painted using an electrostatic painting process, electrical voltage must not be discharged through the TCM. To prevent this possibility, Allison recommends installing the TCM after the electrostatic paint process is complete. If the TCM is installed prior to electrostatic painting, the vehicle

Builder must insure the following:

• that the TCM is not painted
• that the elements being painted are properly and continuously grounded to earth during the entire painting process. Allison Transmission is not responsible for TCM damage which results from improper grounding during

Electrostatic painting of the vehicle.

During electrostatic painting, the paint droplets receive an electrostatic charge which attracts them to earth-grounded surfaces. Voltages at the spray gun can exceed several thousand volts. The charge which builds up on an improperly chassis or body can be discharged through the TCM, resulting in damage to the TCM.


Given that Allisons are so prevalent in Skoolies, this seemed important enough to me that I thought everyone here should be made aware of these considerations. I know that I was misinformed. I previously understood that simply disconnecting the battery was adequate but that turns out to be a dangerous misconception based on this "official" data. Fortunately, I have yet to install my TCM. Glad I found this first.

good info!

so even on the 4th gen they use a separate TCM box? so it can be easily unplugged during work on the bus?

the more I think about it..the more I like the idea of swapping my 545 out for a 4th gen 6 speed...

-Christopher

 

[opus-SKO]

Wonder if you could put some sort of protection inline? Like a GFI or a fuse, some sort of safety device, but in technical terms that I know not of.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Hey Cadillac --- Look around and see if you can locate a used 5th gen...they don't require any modding, hacking or non-existent harnesses to work. You can set it up with just a TPS and bypass any tricky coding or connectivity issues. And 6th gear is there, it doesn't need to be unlocked like nearly all 4th gen units. They have been out since about 2010 as I recall and are on plenty of newer medium duty trucks of different makes.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Hey Opus --- since my electrical savvy is just about zilch squared, I would personally not attempt to work around the requirements issued by Allison. Me...I'll just unplug that sucker before doing any welding.

The electrostatic painting thing will probably not be an issue with my rattle-cans unless I get hit by lightning while doing it, in which case the TCM will be the least of my worries.

 

[cadillackid]

Hey Cadillac --- Look around and see if you can locate a used 5th gen...they don't require any modding, hacking or non-existent harnesses to work. You can set it up with just a TPS and bypass any tricky coding or connectivity issues. And 6th gear is there, it doesn't need to be unlocked like nearly all 4th gen units. They have been out since about 2010 as I recall and are on plenty of newer medium duty trucks of different makes.

5th gen thats right.. I was thinking it was 4th.. what did you do? get a reman unit?

to me it looks like the mounts and driveshaft are an inch or less from the AT545.. and of course its allison they will have the correct SAE to mate to a DT engine.. (or should)....

not like I havent moved a rear crossmember or fabbed an "adapter plate" to "move the hole" before.. and driveshafts are easy.. just get it cut down..

with only 3/4" in length I probably technically wouldnt have ot mess with the pinion angle
-Christopher

 

[Robin97396]

I thought you Texans would just sprinkle some of that electrostatic paint on your bus and wait for a hot day to melt it on.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Cadillac --- I ordered mine new from the factory through Stewart & Stevenson. It was actually built to my specs. They put together a 17 page readout that included more info than I'll ever be able to use that took into account things like weight, tire size & inflation, frontal area, estimated drag coefficient, and on & on. Very impressive. Even included estimated fluid temps for various gears & speeds. And while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I remember it being quite a bit longer than an AT545. I'll be back at work on it tomorrow and will get some numbers for you as I still have that 545 sitting in my garage too.

(And it is still FREE for the taking to anyone who can use it, just come get it).

And unless you alter the engine angle, the driveline angle & pinion angle should remain the same. But you will likely have to chop a little off the driveshaft length.

 

[cadillackid]

Cadillac --- I ordered mine new from the factory through Stewart & Stevenson. It was actually built to my specs. They put together a 17 page readout that included more info than I'll ever be able to use that took into account things like weight, tire size & inflation, frontal area, estimated drag coefficient, and on & on. Very impressive. Even included estimated fluid temps for various gears & speeds. And while I don't have the numbers in front of me, I remember it being quite a bit longer than an AT545. I'll be back at work on it tomorrow and will get some numbers for you as I still have that 545 sitting in my garage too.

(And it is still FREE for the taking to anyone who can use it, just come get it).

And unless you alter the engine angle, the driveline angle & pinion angle should remain the same. But you will likely have to chop a little off the driveshaft length.

thats cool... im of the mind id probably order new too.. just because.. when i build something I tend to BUILD something...

you are using a 1000MH?

heck your distributer might be able to recommend what i really should put under there too..

I'll get some miles on the bus first to figure out exactly what I want to do... but chances are it will involve a trans and turning up my engine some..

I dont think ive ever owned any project that i didnt "Untie a few extra horsies from the barn"
-Christopher

 

[Tango-SKO]

Sounds like we think a lot alike Cadillac. When I researched trannies, I considered a used or rebuilt 5/6 speed, but by the time the rebuild would be done to my satisfaction, it would have cost almost as much as a factory new unit. They ain't cheap at over $8 grand, but you either get what you pay for...or you pay for what you get.

I did come within 30 minutes of getting a brand new 2200HS model for $3500 from a new truck facility. They had a driver lose control of an 18 wheeler and total a brand new rolling chassis on their lot, but the yay-hoo who quoted me the price sold it out from under me as I was driving over with cash in hand. There may be some similar deals out there. Worth keeping an ear out for anyway.

Mine is a 2200MH (Motor Home), 6 speed with a Park pawl. Almost the same unit as the 2200 HS (Highway/Truck model). I am in the process of ordering the shifter as we speak. I'm going (once again) with an all mechanical unit rather than electronic. Homework and chatting with Allison folks indicated the usual potential for expensive "issues" with anything electronic while the straight cable is about as simple and bullet proof as it gets. KISS.

I can recommend any of the Stewart & Stevenson centers as the best place to get straight answers and input. The (HUGE) local center here in Houston was fantastic to work with.

Good luck with the hunt bud.

 

[cadillackid]

Sounds like we think a lot alike Cadillac. When I researched trannies, I considered a used or rebuilt 5/6 speed, but by the time the rebuild would be done to my satisfaction, it would have cost almost as much as a factory new unit. They ain't cheap at over $8 grand, but you either get what you pay for...or you pay for what you get.

I did come within 30 minutes of getting a brand new 2200HS model for $3500 from a new truck facility. They had a driver lose control of an 18 wheeler and total a brand new rolling chassis on their lot, but the yay-hoo who quoted me the price sold it out from under me as I was driving over with cash in hand. There may be some similar deals out there. Worth keeping an ear out for anyway.

Mine is a 2200MH (Motor Home), 6 speed with a Park pawl. Almost the same unit as the 2200 HS (Highway/Truck model). I am in the process of ordering the shifter as we speak. I'm going (once again) with an all mechanical unit rather than electronic. Homework and chatting with Allison folks indicated the usual potential for expensive "issues" with anything electronic while the straight cable is about as simple and bullet proof as it gets. KISS.

I can recommend any of the Stewart & Stevenson centers as the best place to get straight answers and input. The (HUGE) local center here in Houston was fantastic to work with.

Good luck with the hunt bud.

thats right I had forgotten the MH meant it has a parking pawl on it.. when I was looking at busses believe it or not a couple skoolies i looked at had park positions...

mine has air brakes so no need for a park pawl...

talking of transmissions.. of course 4th gen units are easy to find all over the place used.. but then if I add the cost of the destroked standalone controller box that adds $1600 to my price tag just to get a trans that will run with only TPS like the 5th gen does internally... and im guessing the destroked box propbably isnt too kind to the allison warranty...

I may go new or Reman.. I could probably get away with reman as my bus and engine is pretty standard so the standard programs are likely to work.. unlike yours which is a 100% custom rig.

will they give you support to help dial it in afyer you get your rig up and running?

as far as my sizings I was mentioning earlier.. i was looking at swapping from the AT545 to a 1000 series.. whuich looks mechanically like a lot easier fit...

driveshaft is easy i have a great driveshaft shop right down the street from me that has made all my custom driveshafts over the years for hotrods.. in fact in most of hotrod builds it was a given I was going to just toss out my driveshaft and get a nice new fully balanced with brute force heavy U-joints... even with safety loops busting a driveshaft or a U joint is no picnic.. at least has the potential to get interesting..

again im doing a lot of speculating about a Bus I bought nearly a month ago, have only driven once, and dont yet have in my hands... but when I do its first trip is a mixed terrain of driving 1100 miles from florida to home in ohio so I'll be pretty familiar with how its going to act... I'll purposely run it through some hills, run it in some traffic and slow N go as well... learn what its about..

whats funny is it was an ohio bus and was driven to florida to the dealer i got it from...

-Christopher

 

[Tango-SKO]

Hey Cadillac --- The "Park" pawl is an option on all Allisons. I had to order it added to mine, so they can be found either way. And note that "Park" is only really good for level ground. If you are on any kind of a slope at all you need to have a real emergency/parking brake to hold a load. Either at the rear wheels or on the driveline. I added a late model Chevy 3500/4500 driveline brake on mine. Many of the Allisons will already have one attached. The old 545 I have came with one but the bolt pattern was slightly different than the new 6 speed (dang it!).

And yes..the 4th gens are plentiful in a variety for configurations. There are folks who can/will unlock 6th gear and provide the harness & controller besides Destroked. Below is one outfit that can do/provide everything.

CUMMINS ALLISON CONVERSIONS

Any authorized Allison repair/maintenance facility can provide support and flash the TCM once installed.

Will be at my shop working this weekend and will compare the overall length of the 545 & 2200.

Be advised that Allison does NOT provide shifters, dipsticks or any of the other parts than the trans itself. Those are all speced by whatever chassis builder like Freightliner or International and can only be ordered through their authorized aftermarket network. The company that makes 99.999% of them is Orscheln who will direct you to their "FAST" network which has builders & distributors all around the country. Just ordered my shifter this morning from Inland Truck up near Dallas, Texas. Will order the cable once I get the other parts and can get a proper measurement. Decided to mount the shifter on the dash/firewall which should give me a pretty straight & clear shot from the shifter to the tranny. Will find out soon enough.

 

[cadillackid]

Hey Cadillac --- The "Park" pawl is an option on all Allisons. I had to order it added to mine, so they can be found either way. And note that "Park" is only really good for level ground. If you are on any kind of a slope at all you need to have a real emergency/parking brake to hold a load. Either at the rear wheels or on the driveline. I added a late model Chevy 3500/4500 driveline brake on mine. Many of the Allisons will already have one attached. The old 545 I have came with one but the bolt pattern was slightly different than the new 6 speed (dang it!).

And yes..the 4th gens are plentiful in a variety for configurations. There are folks who can/will unlock 6th gear and provide the harness & controller besides Destroked. Below is one outfit that can do/provide everything.

CUMMINS ALLISON CONVERSIONS

Any authorized Allison repair/maintenance facility can provide support and flash the TCM once installed.

Will be at my shop working this weekend and will compare the overall length of the 545 & 2200.

Be advised that Allison does NOT provide shifters, dipsticks or any of the other parts than the trans itself. Those are all speced by whatever chassis builder like Freightliner or International and can only be ordered through their authorized aftermarket network. The company that makes 99.999% of them is Orscheln who will direct you to their "FAST" network which has builders & distributors all around the country. Just ordered my shifter this morning from Inland Truck up near Dallas, Texas. Will order the cable once I get the other parts and can get a proper measurement. Decided to mount the shifter on the dash/firewall which should give me a pretty straight & clear shot from the shifter to the tranny. Will find out soon enough.

thats site is pretty cool.. i wasnt familiar with them!.. they are a light friendlier looking than destroked.com. They even have a TPS that fits in place of a shift cable... basically remove the shift cable and place their cable-driven TPS in.. how cool that is!..

I swear if someone has dreamedit up its being made these days..

im not sure below how they say the shift lever is the same, unless allison uses a different method for manual gear selection if I want to downshift going dow a hill...

found the answer to the 545 / 1000 question.. the 1000 is more than beef enough for my DT360.. will be interesting to see what your calculations come up with..

I found a thread on an old wanderlodge forum where a guy swapped a 545 to a 1000 and sounded like it was pretty smooth.

CUMMINS ALLISON CONVERSIONS

7) How difficult is the change from a 545 style Allison to the Allison 1000?
It is very easy, the 545 style has an SAE 3 style bell housing, if you put the SAE 3 housing on the 1000 it will bolt right into place, the shift lever is the same and the tail housing is the same. If you have a parking brake or yoke they will interchange with the 1000. The 1000 is ¾ of an inch longer than the 545.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Sounds like a cool swap. And the slip yoke can probably take up that 3/4" so you probably won't even have to diddle with the driveshaft.

Like they say at Nike...Just Do It!

 

[Tango-SKO]

Huge Progress!!! --- No...not really. You guessed it. My machine shop parts will once again be ready..."next week".

Meanwhile, back at the ranch house...

Had to something today, so I opted for some annoying, menial tasks. The first was a (needed) test fit of my radiator frame and new radiator brace (it was missing when I got the bus). Went fine, just had to make one of theose "two bolt" runs to the hardware store to get things in place.

Funny thing is...it looks and feels like actual progress. The front end has been naked for so long, having the bracket & rad in place makes it look much further along than it is. But, I'll just enjoy the moment.

Then there is the matter of having to shrink a bunch of holes. All of the existing screw holes for my upper rub rail are seriously wallowed out 5/16" affairs. Trouble is, I planned on riveting that chunk of metal in place using 1/4" steel rivets. Why not 5/16 you ask? Cause they are a whole nuther animal. For whatever reason, when you go over 1/4", they get crazy expensive and require a special hydro-pneumatic tool to install. I could rent a puller for about $150 a day, but then you have to buy a non refundable $580 head! Not gonna happen, especially since I already have a ton of the 1/4". SO here's how it goes...

Start with a wallowed 5/16 hole...

Cut down a quarter-inch fender washer to fit behind the old hole...

Fit the new, smaller hole in place with a spot weld hole prepared...

Weld that sucker in place...

Grind it flush..

Then hit it with some "Weld-Through Primer" just to keep it clean for a while.

Now...repeat the process 26 times and you are ready to rivet.

BTW...for whatever reason, only the forward of the two original holes seen were ever used. I think somebody screwed up at the factory.

ONWARD!

 

[cadillackid]

Huge Progress!!! --- No...not really. You guessed it. My machine shop parts will once again be ready..."next week".

Meanwhile, back at the ranch house...

Had to something today, so I opted for some annoying, menial tasks. The first was a (needed) test fit of my radiator frame and new radiator brace (it was missing when I got the bus). Went fine, just had to make one of theose "two bolt" runs to the hardware store to get things in place.

Funny thing is...it looks and feels like actual progress. The front end has been naked for so long, having the bracket & rad in place makes it look much further along than it is. But, I'll just enjoy the moment.

Then there is the matter of having to shrink a bunch of holes. All of the existing screw holes for my upper rub rail are seriously wallowed out 5/16" affairs. Trouble is, I planned on riveting that chunk of metal in place using 1/4" steel rivets. Why not 5/16 you ask? Cause they are a whole nuther animal. For whatever reason, when you go over 1/4", they get crazy expensive and require a special hydro-pneumatic tool to install. I could rent a puller for about $150 a day, but then you have to buy a non refundable $580 head! Not gonna happen, especially since I already have a ton of the 1/4". SO here's how it goes...

Start with a wallowed 5/16 hole...

Cut down a quarter-inch fender washer to fit behind the old hole...

Fit the new, smaller hole in place with a spot weld hole prepared...

Weld that sucker in place...

Grind it flush..

Then hit it with some "Weld-Through Primer" just to keep it clean for a while.

Now...repeat the process 26 times and you are ready to rivet.

BTW...for whatever reason, only the forward of the two original holes seen were ever used. I think somebody screwed up at the factory.

ONWARD!

looks like great progress to me!!

I found out yesterday they ran into some unforeseen rust on the roof of my bus that os going to take an extra 10 days or so to fix.. knowing from where my bus came from (and the crappy paint carpenter used anyway).. that the roof of my bus likely got scraped lots over the years by low hanging tree branches on the "quaint american tree lined small town streets".... so alas im amassing parts for a bus thats still not in my garage.. I better not blow it up on the way home from florida in a couple weeks lolol


love that radiator setup! presents lots of challenges in vehicles that came to a "point" in the front being able to cool them with bigger engines.. the street-rodders have to go through this as many times the radiator frames were rusted gone.. old cars were run on pre water and drained sometimes or just boiled coolnt and water all over the metal many times in summer so those got rotted quickly..

wow on the holes.. I think I wouldve punted and welded some flat stock behins the body and drilled new holes... then again it wouldnt be nearly as nice a job as what you have done there with the washers..

-Christopher