allison 2000 replacement questions

[wanderingturtl]

Hi all,

per y'all's advice, I've decided to replace rather than reassemble the Allison 2000 in my bus.

My questions are, 1. are these transmissions the same? The first one, with the least info on the tag, is from my bus, and the other two are available used locally.
and B. will I need to re-flash the computer?
any and all help is appreciated

 

[wanderingturtl]

Ok, well, here's what I've found so far. The Allison 2000 transmissions have a number cast on the top. 1, 2, 3, the highest i saw was 7. The guy at the used parts place said i need the same number. There is something called a TIN or TID, which is transmission identification number. The guy that is helping me install the transmission said that if I have TID 1 that is a first generation. And that first gen doesn't sync to the PCM so i don't need a reflash.

 

[wanderingturtl]

We have a problem with the bellhousing. The trans I got came off a freightliner. There is a ring called an adaptor ring, that doesn't fit the bellhousing on the trans I got. On Monday we are diving back to Houston to get my original bellhousing.
There is also something called an adaptor plate that doesn't fit either, and the one that came on my bus is missing. So I've ordered what is supposed to be the correct one on ebay.

 

[wanderingturtl]

It's funny though, the bellhousing on the trans I got seems that it would fit right up to the back of the engine without the adaptor ring. But there is a 1.25" or so gap because the input shaft on the torque converter is so long. I'm honestly considering cutting the torque converter input shaft. And taking the adaptor plate to a machine shop and having the flywheel bolt nuts moved to match my flywheel. and forgoing changing the bellhousing and using the other adaptor ring. I really don't see why it wouldn't work.
But yeah, apparently allison 2000's can come with different bellhousings so be aware of that.

I just don't understand why they used an adaptor ring when they could have just used a bellhousing that fit in the first place.

I will find out a lot more on Monday and I'll report back with my findings.

 

[cadillackid]

absolutely positivelt *DO NOT CUT ANYTHING*!!! you got the wrong stuff..



I talk to alot of pweople on here so hionestly I cant remember what engine you have and its not filled out on your profile,,,



in the medium duty engine world there are 2 sizes of mountings.. SAE2 and SAE3.. SAE2 IS BIGGER than SAE3.. this is the bell flange that mounts to the engine.



an SAE2 bell diameter bolt center across to bolt center is somewhere in the 18 /38 range..


and SAE3 bell diameter is somewhere in the 16 3/4 range.



Most all school busses ive seen have SAE3 bell housing mounts...



id have to find your old pictures but it looked to me like you had a torque converter with an adapter riung mounted to it on your old transmission... thats the way my T444E is setup..


on my ENGINE.. it was 2 rings of bolts.. the outer ring of bolts is the SAE2 diameter.. an adapter ring is factory installed to turn the SAE2 into the smaller SAE3.. (thus the double ring).. looked at my thread called the "RedByrd Transformation" for some pics of my rings and such...



that gets you Biolted to the engine..



then there is an adapter ring that mounts on the torque converter which acts as a spacer and also bolt pattern adapter so the smaller bolt pattern of the converter matches the larger pattern of the engine flywheel / flexplate.. this is 6 bolts..



allison 2000 transmisions were made in SAE2 and SAE3 variants.. just changing the Bell from one to the other doesnt make said transmission equal as there are different shaft lengths to handle different engine spacings...



as for "syncing to the PCM".. *ALL* allison 2000 serries transmisisons from its inception in late year 2000 till end of model year 2005 used 3rd gen controls.. the TCM Syncs to the PCM on all of them... (early versions of the 3000's did not they were sold as "worl;d series" and had mechanical to electronic throttle boxes so they could be mated to mechanical engines).. this is not one of those...



2006 and later transmissions use 4th and then 5th gen controls...



*YES* there is truth that not all transmissions and TCM's work together,, you need to stay within generation.. the 00-05 transmissions need to stay with the 00-05 vehicles that had the 3rd gen controls (Yours is 3rd gen).. 2006 - 2010ish need to stay with 4th gen controls...



im not familiar with the TID number.. I need to learn more about it... im just familiar with years and TCM controls.. there is likely transmission serial number cutoffs for the various controls generations...



as for school busses.. 95% of them that ive seen used a 2500-PTS version of the 2000 series... specifically made for school busses.. thats likely what your original was (if thats even the transmission that was on your bus)..


part of me wonders if the whole issue arose because the bus original transmission went bad and the previous owner picked up used unit , found that it didnt fit right so took it apart to try and mix match parts, got in over their head and just quit the project...

 

[cadillackid]

looking at your figure and what I found in my repairlink for a 2004 bus that I had the VIN for..



ring 55 is the SAE2 to SAE3 downsize adapter that mounts to the engine flywheel housing...


Ring 20 is the torque converter spacer ring that i have on mine.. i was thinking i saw one of those in your original pics.. maybe not.. maybe I was thinking of the spare one I have hanging in my garage that I somehow acquired.. LOL..

 

[Omnibot2000]

CK knows his transmissions. When we blow them up, we yank them and send out for rebuild. Not piece meal stuff together.

CK, good observation. Project gone wrong.

I tried to log onto the Allison hub to compare details on the transmission last night but fell asleep with phone in hand. Tried this morning and can't remember my login and password.

Then got busy working on the front end of my bus today. Servicing caliper slides and pads, checking wheel bearings and putting on some new tires. Came in to cook dinner for my girls.

 

[ewo1]

TID explained

Here are some pages from the 1998 Allison 2000 troubleshooting manual, explaining what TID is and does.

Per the manual...

The manufacture and sale of both WTEC II and WTEC III ECUs during most of 1997 required a means of using a common transmission with either a WTEC II or a WTEC III ECU.

A TID 1 transmission is the common transmission configuration for both control systems and production began in September, 1996 (see Table 1–2). A TransID level 1 transmission is compatible with V6E, V7, V7A, V8, and V8A ECUs.

TransID level 2 transmissions were produced beginning in late December, 1997 and all were for WTEC III units. A TransID 2 transmission is compatible with only V8A ECUs.
Pre-TransID transmissions are only compatible with V6E, V7, and V7A ECUs. Pre-TransID transmissions were produced before the first S/N break in Table 1–1.

 

[cadillackid]

im just trying to figure out how TransiD plays into the 2000 series... at least in this case... maybe they had their own TID's to handle 3/4th gen controls and 4th / 5th gen controls changeover points. the attached PDF talks of the MD series which when released were called "world series" and came out in 94/95 9I had thought model year 95 but apparently it was before then)... makes sense if it was pre 94 as everyone else had in GM land had electronic transmissions by then..

 

[ewo1]

yeah, it is all Chinese to me too... but I have learned something... The Tid basically helps identify which ECM you can or cannot use, at least in this case of Tid1 vs TId2. I was under the thought that any 2000 ECM would work on any 2000 series tranny, apparently not!

Also, the issue you brought up about SAE2 vs SAE3 is something to be aware about if your out replacement tranny shopping.

 

[cadillackid]

yeah, it is all Chinese to me too... but I have learned something... The Tid basically helps identify which ECM you can or cannot use, at least in this case of Tid1 vs TId2. I was under the thought that any 2000 ECM would work on any 2000 series tranny, apparently not!

Also, the issue you brought up about SAE2 vs SAE3 is something to be aware about if your out replacement tranny shopping.

but WTEC-II was never used on the 2000 series.. note the models in the attached PDF.. they are all 3000/4000 series which is not the 2000.. B series were transit bus versions.. a B300 was a 3000 series with a bus vocation.. (not sure of the difference between say a B300 and a MD3060)..

 

[ewo1]

but WTEC-II was never used on the 2000 series.. note the models in the attached PDF.. they are all 3000/4000 series which is not the 2000.. B series were transit bus versions.. a B300 was a 3000 series with a bus vocation.. (not sure of the difference between say a B300 and a MD3060)..

You got a sharp eye!

Looking back I realize that I printed those doc sheets to PDF from the Allison 3000 troubleshooting manual, not the 2000 manual. But, the reasons for the TID creation and it's purpose should be understood for those who are replacing their trannies with used units.

The purpose of TransID is to reduce the need for OEMs to use crossreference lists of transmission and calibrated ECU A/Ns when such changes to the transmission are made. TransID allows OEMs to order specific transmission A/Ns and calibrated ECU A/Ns and receive all changes made to the transmission and all of the corresponding calibrations.

The basis for the TransID system is the creation of a TransID wire in the WTEC II and III system to provide a signal to the ECU of the TransID level of the transmission. This wire for WTEC II and III will be connected directly to the Analog Ground (wire 135) to signal TransID level 1 (TID 1).

TransID levels 2 through 8 will only apply to WTEC III and are covered in TS2973EN, WTEC III Troubleshooting.

 

[cadillackid]

You got a sharp eye!

Looking back I realize that I printed those doc sheets to PDF from the Allison 3000 troubleshooting manual, not the 2000 manual. But, the reasons for the TID creation and it's purpose should be understood for those who are replacing their trannies with used units.

interesting stuff... wonder what the wire does. . and Yes TID is helpful in the 2000 series when looking to change from WTEC-III to 4th or 5th gen and even the newer 6th gen..



there was a lot of talk around 2015+ allison 1000 / 2000 on the forums a few years back about how those transmisisons differ from the 10-14 which differ from the 06-09... soon we will start seeing 2010+ busses coming up for sale and those allisons will be much tougher to use for old bus swaps as IH, thomas, and I believe Bluebird were all using SEM(Shift Energy Management) (shiftsense) by then which requires a special link to the ECM that reduces engine power during shifts...



I have a TCM program for my A53 TCM (late 4th gen)... which has SEM turned on and it absolutely will not work without an SEM compatible engine ECM... it turns on the Inhibit and Check trans light and oges into 3rd gearand reverse only limp.. the codes are that its not receiving the proper Shiftsense communication from the ECM and errors out.. it requires the 500K J1939 database which not all the ECM1 (NavPak) engines support.. my 2004 ECM does but doesnt support SEM..


so keep that in mind if your donor bus ends up being an IH maxxforce or a cummins 6.7 or later Cat C7, the electronics may not work..


yes I could build a box that goes between to "defeat" SEM, however you never want to do that as the transmission shift tables and TAP (Target Apply Pressures for the ckutches) are designed to be a little more lax and "loose" knowing you are not shifting the engine under power.. SEM prevents Flares, and smoothens out the shifts as the engine RPM adjusts to where it needs to be after the shift... essentially the allison is "floating" gears which maximizes clutch life and allows allison to advertise much higher torque and Horsepower capabilities for its transmissions..



OK sorry i got off on a transmission Tangent.. (sorry im fascinated by all things engine and transmission and data link)..

 

[ewo1]

4th gen TID compatibilty

interesting stuff... wonder what the wire does. . and Yes TID is helpful in the 2000 series when looking to change from WTEC-III to 4th or 5th gen and even the newer 6th gen..

You have opened up a whole new world with this "SEM" you mentioned earlier. Up until now I had no idea it existed...after reading some more about it I begin to realize that sourcing a used replacement tranny could have some very important implications to be aware of.

You were spot on when you mention changing from WTEC-III to 4th or 5th gen.


Here what I found in the Allison 4th generation troubleshooting manual.

WTEC-III to 4th or 5th gen

TID will not allow an Allison 4th Generation TCM to recognize a transmission with WTEC3 controls, nor will will TID allow a WTEC3 ECU to recognize a transmission with Allison 4th generation controls.

Also, the previous info on the TID Explanation post comes from the Allison 3000 WTEC@ controls troubleshooting manual (TS2470). The info in this post is from the (TS3989EN) Allison 3000 WTEC-III 4th or 5th generation controls troubleshooting manual.

I got to say, this is all going to be important stuff to be aware of in the near future as you have indicated, with the newer models retiring and those of us with older unit are wanting to repair or upgrade.

I am considering myself real lucky right now. I recently upgraded my '99 bus by opening up 6th gear bus simply replacing the TCM from a 2006 bus that already had it open. To be brutally honest I never even gave any thought to this upgrade with regard to TID compatibility.

I wonder if there exists anywhere a upgrade compatibility chart for the tranny and TCM's versions and TID.

What year did the 3000 trannies start getting this new SEM crap?

 

[ewo1]

I wonder if there exists anywhere a upgrade compatibility chart for the tranny and TCM's versions and TID.

What year did the 3000 trannies start getting this new SEM crap?

I might have answered my own question...

compatibility chart....

 

[cadillackid]

I might have answered my own question...

compatibility chart....

this document is the one to hang onto!! that has a great explanation including replacement units within generation.. its dated 05 so im sure theres probably a new one released somepalce with every controls gen..



as for SEM on an older engine... I could do it.. HOWEVER.. while its a project i could potentially build on my own.. its not something I could ever release out of my own hands. not freely or open source or github etc... I have to be able to take over the throttle on the bus ... im not willing to take on that liability in today's sue happy society to even give away my schematic and software code to do it


fortunately though right now there are a lot of decent busses to be had with allison 2000 / 3000 series already in them and pre 08.. I dont see hardly anyone obtaining AT545 equipped busses to convert anymore.. vintage bus enthusiasts applaud an AT545 for its unique and iconic sound..

 

[nikitis]

this document is the one to hang onto!! that has a great explanation including replacement units within generation.. its dated 05 so im sure theres probably a new one released somepalce with every controls gen..



as for SEM on an older engine... I could do it.. HOWEVER.. while its a project i could potentially build on my own.. its not something I could ever release out of my own hands. not freely or open source or github etc... I have to be able to take over the throttle on the bus ... im not willing to take on that liability in today's sue happy society to even give away my schematic and software code to do it


fortunately though right now there are a lot of decent busses to be had with allison 2000 / 3000 series already in them and pre 08.. I dont see hardly anyone obtaining AT545 equipped busses to convert anymore.. vintage bus enthusiasts applaud an AT545 for its unique and iconic sound..

I picked up one of those AT545 Buses, and will need your services someday soon.
I'll happily sign a waiver to not sue you for any circumstance or reason.

 

[wanderingturtl]

Hi all, just got back from taking the bus with newly installed allison 2000 to california and back. I have to say, I could not be much happier with the transmission. We did not do any computer work to it. All we did was keep the original TIS and TOS from my original trans and put them on the new trans. It shifted smooth as butter. We even pulled a mid size truck with the bus for half the trip.

 

[wanderingturtl]

When I was at the parts yard, I took some photos of the numbers on the top of the transmissions, and the data plates. All of the data plates with a TID said 1 or 001. The numbers on the top that I observed were 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7. One of the 1's looked like an l.

The guy at the parts yard insisted I needed one with a 1 on top, like my original one had. It worked, but I don't know if it really had anything to do with it. He also didn't realize they came with different bellhousings, so who knows if he knew what he was talking about.

 

[wanderingturtl]

in the medium duty engine world there are 2 sizes of mountings.. SAE2 and SAE3.. SAE2 IS BIGGER than SAE3.. this is the bell flange that mounts to the engine.

Per this manual I found, there were four different bellhousings available on Allison 2000 transmissions. I do not know how many of those came on busses.