Assortment of questions

[WanderingForest]

Hey all. I just got a bus recently and have begun the long road of converting it. I have all the seats out and most of the flooring to begin rust treatment soon.

Firstly, I have some nails in the floor that were used to hold the plywood in place. They are rusted now, and can neither be hammered in, or pulled out with a hammer. I am considering grinding them off, but am worried about accidentally nicking the metal flooring. Any other ideas?

As well, I have two panels making up the side walls. The upper board is held in using pop rivets and I know I need to remove that board. The one below it has solid head rivets I would need to grind off. Just confirming I am supposed to remove both wall panels. Picture of the lower panel:

Lastly, in regards to flooring I am leaning towards vinyl because of its waterproofing as well as how thin it is to preserve headroom. I am using the book skoolie by will Sutherland as one of my main resources, however, in the book he recommends laying your flooring over the entire floor, and then framing in the walls and everything. That doesn’t really make sense to me, as then you wouldn’t be able to replace the flooring later on. My only concern with laying the vinyl after I frame is that in the kitchen, where water is a concern, there would be a small gap where the flooring meets the cabinets etc. for water to get into. Is this actually a concern? Could I caulk around where the floor meets the walls? Any other ideas if that small gap is a concern. Also, in case it impacts the answer I was planning on doing foam board insulation, then plywood subfloor, and then vinyl. Or if you recommend adding an additional layer into the flooring?

Thanks for all your recommendations and assistance

 

[musigenesis]

The "lower panel" you're referring to is called the chair rail. You should absolutely NOT remove it because it is a critical structure that connects the walls to the floor.

These two videos show how your bus is constructed (I think your bus is an International but Blue Birds and Thomases are constructed in basically the same way):

The second video starting at 0:42 shows the chair rail and how the ribs are attached to it. Again, you do NOT want to remove it and you would have an incredibly difficult time doing so in any event. But a few people have actually done this, unfortunately.

The nails should come out with a very large pry bar, or you can cut them with a hacksaw or zip wheel. It's no great concern if you nick the floor while doing this.

 

[Nawbdy]

Hey all. I just got a bus recently and have begun the long road of converting it. I have all the seats out and most of the flooring to begin rust treatment soon.

Firstly, I have some nails in the floor that were used to hold the plywood in place. They are rusted now, and can neither be hammered in, or pulled out with a hammer. I am considering grinding them off, but am worried about accidentally nicking the metal flooring. Any other ideas? View attachment 66596

As well, I have two panels making up the side walls. The upper board is held in using pop rivets and I know I need to remove that board. The one below it has solid head rivets I would need to grind off. Just confirming I am supposed to remove both wall panels. Picture of the lower panel: View attachment 66597

Lastly, in regards to flooring I am leaning towards vinyl because of its waterproofing as well as how thin it is to preserve headroom. I am using the book skoolie by will Sutherland as one of my main resources, however, in the book he recommends laying your flooring over the entire floor, and then framing in the walls and everything. That doesn’t really make sense to me, as then you wouldn’t be able to replace the flooring later on. My only concern with laying the vinyl after I frame is that in the kitchen, where water is a concern, there would be a small gap where the flooring meets the cabinets etc. for water to get into. Is this actually a concern? Could I caulk around where the floor meets the walls? Any other ideas if that small gap is a concern. Also, in case it impacts the answer I was planning on doing foam board insulation, then plywood subfloor, and then vinyl. Or if you recommend adding an additional layer into the flooring?

Thanks for all your recommendations and assistance

An angle grinder with an assortment of different types of wheels will be very useful in your build. Your bus must be in a lot better shape than mine if you're concerned about a nick in it.

If I understand what you're talking about with the wall, that lower section is structural, you don't want to cut on that.

 

[WanderingForest]

The "lower panel" you're referring to is called the chair rail. You should absolutely NOT remove it because it is a critical structure that connects the walls to the floor.

Very good to know they are structural elements. I wasn’t planning on removing anything unless I knew what it was. Glad I didn’t try to rush ahead on anything and screw up the bus by removing the chair rails

 

[WanderingForest]

Hey. Thanks again for the info about the chair rail. I had one more question on it. So there is this ledge that sticks out that the chairs were attached to (probably how it got it’s name). Would I be able to use the angle grinder to remove that ledge without causing any damage? It would help make attaching the wall studs a lot easier.


Sorry this picture is upside down

 

[musigenesis]

You could probably cut just that flange/lip off without any structural problems. I wouldn't want to do it myself but I have a healthy fear of angle grinders and cutting wheels. Where I used wall studs at all, I just ran them down to the top of that flange, and then I ran a piece of 1X horizontally near the floor to screw the base of my wall panels into. You don't really need to have a continuous wall stud from floor to window to secure your wall panels.

This pic shows my own wall studding arrangement: https://www.skoolie.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51893&d=1607830268 (mostly I used short 6" pieces of wall studding just below the windows, then wood screws welded to the studs onto which I spun pieces of dowel rod - those are the holes in the insulation - and then a piece of 1X horizontally near the floor; this is all that's needed to firmly attach the walls and the rest is insulation).

 

[WanderingForest]

You could probably cut just that flange/lip off without any structural problems. I wouldn't want to do it myself but I have a healthy fear of angle grinders and cutting wheels. Where I used wall studs at all, I just ran them down to the top of that flange, and then I ran a piece of 1X horizontally near the floor to screw the base of my wall panels into. You don't really need to have a continuous wall stud from floor to window to secure your wall panels.

This pic shows my own wall studding arrangement: https://www.skoolie.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=51893&d=1607830268 (mostly I used short 6" pieces of wall studding just below the windows, then wood screws welded to the studs onto which I spun pieces of dowel rod - those are the holes in the insulation - and then a piece of 1X horizontally near the floor; this is all that's needed to firmly attach the walls and the rest is insulation).

So I had a friend come by and look at the lip that I’m talking about. He noticed that there is a weld connecting the chair rail to the wall supports above where the lip is located. This would mean cutting off the lip would be like removing the weld. The weld is not the only thing holding the chair rail to the wall supports, but removing it would decrease the structural integrity. So though I don’t think it would ruin the bus, but it’s not a risk I’m willing to take.

Also, I just finished removing all the wall panels from one side of the bus. Now for the other side

 

[WanderingForest]

Hey all. There is another panel that I’m not sure if I should remove. It is in the very rear of the bus, on the side wall. I have a 1998 bluebird pusher with Cummins 8.3 engine, so the engine block is in the back of the bus. There are two panels on the wall directly above where the engine is located. On the passengers side I am not going to be removing because it is part of some ventilation or something for the engine.

Pictures of passengers side:



You can see some venting or something near the top, it’s a bit hidden behind that tree branch

I’m not sure what’s behind the panel on the drivers side of the bus, but if it’s just insulation I’d like to remove it to replace it with better insulation. Anybody know what’s behind that panel?

Pictures of drivers side:







Thanks again to everyone making sure I don’t ruin this beautiful bus

 

[musigenesis]

So I had a friend come by and look at the lip that I’m talking about. He noticed that there is a weld connecting the chair rail to the wall supports above where the lip is located. This would mean cutting off the lip would be like removing the weld. The weld is not the only thing holding the chair rail to the wall supports, but removing it would decrease the structural integrity. So though I don’t think it would ruin the bus, but it’s not a risk I’m willing to take.View attachment 66640

So, I'm of the opinion that wherever you see welds on a bus like this (not counting the robot welds on the floor panels), they're only used during construction to temporarily tack parts in place until the entire body structure is complete. These welds are always poor quality and you can see in the video I linked how quickly they're done - I think there's no way the bus engineers are relying on something with quality control that poor to actually provide strength in an accident.

That being said, I do think leaving the chair rails entirely alone is the way to go, so no problem.

 

[HamSkoolie]

OKAY, I'm going to try to address each question the OP has had through the thread to this point.


NAILS IN FLOOR. The nails are a very cheap mild steel which means that they are not the same as the floor material. You could probably get away with just grinding them off but you would be left with dissimilar metals corroding and the potential for the remaining piece of nail to fall out thus providing potential moisture intrusion. I would pull them all and after treating the floor for any rust I would seal the holes by welding or inserting stainless steel or zinc coated pop rivets and sealing the mandrel opening with paint or sealant.

Driving the nails in with a hammer leaves the same continued galvanic corrosion (from dissimilar metals) and potential for weather intrusion at some point. As far as nicking the floor...... you're going to nick a lot of stuff, the floor is nothing.


SIDE WALL PANELS: The upper pop riveted panel can be easily removed by using an air hammer to pop out the center mandrels and then cut off the heads of the rivets using two different heads in the air hammer. You can get an air hammer at Harbor Freight for about $15 and it should come with the heads you need.
The lower panel is structural AND I BELIEVE SO IS THE LEDGE that sticks out works with that panel to provide said structure. In our build we're using the inside edge of that ledge as the plane for the inside of our walls.


FLOORING: If you lay your vinyl wall to wall and later decide to refloor you will at least have flooring of some type under the cabinets, sinks, etc. We too are needing to conserve head room but are putting in 1/2" of foam, 1/2" of plywood, and then the finish floor. I'm 6'1" and our bus had 6'4" or 6'5" headroom at the center before we pulled the original floor. I plan to use adhesive between the bus metal floor and foam and between the foam and the 1/2" plywood. The finish flooring will be attached however it's recommended. As for the edges, I am waiting to see how closely the flooring fits before making that decision. I may just use some additional adhesive or I may use some thin metal flashing.



REGARDING OLDYELLER'S COMMENT: "An angle grinder with an assortment of different types of wheels will be very useful in your build. "
I sort of agree but I would obtain MULTIPLE angel GRINDERS. I currently have three in the bus. One has a diamond edged metal cutoff wheel, one has a wire brush, and one has a grinding disk. When doing metal work you will be jumping back and forth between these different things and so having three or four grinders is not over kill.
Harbor Freight has a 4 1/2" light weight angle grinder on sale for $10 all the time. I'd get one more powerful one (the 7 amp Bauer is currently $30) and two of the cheaper ones that are around 4 or 5 amps. The only time I have to change attachments is when one of them wears out.

 

[WanderingForest]

OKAY, I'm going to try to address each question the OP has had through the thread to this point.

TY for trying to address everything I've posted. I've been doing work on the bus since I originally posted. I already ground off all the nails, but now that the head is removed I could hammer the shank through the floor, to avoid the corrosion you mentioned.

About the air hammer, I have already removed all the wall and ceiling panels. I had to hammer each rivet off using a chisel, but the air hammer sure sounds nice. Too bad there are no rivets left for me to remove.

Also, I have decided not to remove the wall ledge, and simply frame around it.

Thanks for the info about the vinyl. I'll take that into consideration, and do some more information before the time comes to lay the vinyl. I'm not quite at that point yet, but thanks for being the first person to answer the question on the vinyl.

Lastly, I do have an angle grinder with a variety of different wheels at the moment. If it's within my budget I may look at purchasing more angle grinders for the convenience, but otherwise I'll be stuck changing the wheels out every five seconds or so

 

[HamSkoolie]

Lastly, I do have an angle grinder with a variety of different wheels at the moment. If it's within my budget I may look at purchasing more angle grinders for the convenience, but otherwise I'll be stuck changing the wheels out every five seconds or so

$10 at Harbor freight for two more (wait for the sale). Or, like I've been doing, drop by those yard sales and drop by as soon as they open. Lots of useful tools to find there if yo don't have a lot of tools.


Welders.....hold out for a wire welder
Metal chop saws
Wood cut off saws
Circular saws
Drill presses
Vices
Work benches


All kinds of savings to be had. And don't forget Craigslist and FB marketplace (if you still do F I left them 4 years ago.


We recently bought 3 sheets of 16ga galvanealled steel for $252 when the cold rolled price I had be given was $316 per sheet. BIG savings by checking the scrap yard and finding those galvanealled sheets that had about a 1/2" of wavy edge on one side....that we had to cut off anyway.
Used solar panels instead of new....save 50% or more there
A harbor freight 12" planner for $269 on sale, along with our table saw will allow us to use a bunch of free and really cheap wood for our stringers as well as framing and such.


I can highly recommend the $65ish scissor type metal shear at Harbor freight. Cuts through our 16ga steel like butter and is so much easier and safer then a grinding or cutting wheel. The plasma torch doesn't even come close on ease.



Saving time and saving money are always good. Air hammers/chisels, air riveters, air paint guns, Air for the plasma torch, air compressors are well worth the investment along with air tools.

 

[sandbagger2u]

Hey all. I just got a bus recently and have begun the long road of converting it. I have all the seats out and most of the flooring to begin rust treatment soon.

Firstly, I have some nails in the floor that were used to hold the plywood in place. They are rusted now, and can neither be hammered in, or pulled out with a hammer. I am considering grinding them off, but am worried about accidentally nicking the metal flooring. Any other ideas? View attachment 66596

As well, I have two panels making up the side walls. The upper board is held in using pop rivets and I know I need to remove that board. The one below it has solid head rivets I would need to grind off. Just confirming I am supposed to remove both wall panels. Picture of the lower panel: View attachment 66597

Lastly, in regards to flooring I am leaning towards vinyl because of its waterproofing as well as how thin it is to preserve headroom. I am using the book skoolie by will Sutherland as one of my main resources, however, in the book he recommends laying your flooring over the entire floor, and then framing in the walls and everything. That doesn’t really make sense to me, as then you wouldn’t be able to replace the flooring later on. My only concern with laying the vinyl after I frame is that in the kitchen, where water is a concern, there would be a small gap where the flooring meets the cabinets etc. for water to get into. Is this actually a concern? Could I caulk around where the floor meets the walls? Any other ideas if that small gap is a concern. Also, in case it impacts the answer I was planning on doing foam board insulation, then plywood subfloor, and then vinyl. Or if you recommend adding an additional layer into the flooring?

Thanks for all your recommendations and assistance

Grinding the nails out is a good option. Wear eye protection for sure. f you can poke a hole in real rusty spots on the floor, they need to be patched. I did a quick sanding, wearing respirator, swept up and the painted the entire floor with Corroseal. Worked so good I did a second coat. Then painted the floor with Rustoleum. I have a floating floor now. I bought 2x4 rough cut and ripped to create 2 actual 2x2's. Matched up with 2' insulation board and covered with 3/4 plywood. Plywood nailed to 2x2's but nothing penetrates floor. It's all a tight fit worked out great for me. Good luck.

 

[Salty Walty]

You don’t need multiple angle grinders. There is a lot of cutting and grinding in the beginning and then you only need to break it out on occasion (cutting a hole for shore power or plumbing). Do a pass where you cut what you need to cut. Change to the grinder and do a pass with that. A smidge of inconvenience is better than buying a bunch of cheap tools that’ll just end up in a landfill.

We’re putting vinyl planks down at the very end, once we know where everything will live in perpetuity. We would have destroyed any flooring if we had put it down after we laid the insulation and subfloor.

And with conflicting advice, welcome to a time honored tradition of the site! For real, when in doubt, check to see how the pros do it and then compare with videos of some good builds (I think Giligan Phantom’s youtube stuff is some of the most solid. Runner up is Gus the Struggle Bus, especially if you read the comments).

 

[HamSkoolie]

You don’t need multiple angle grinders. There is a lot of cutting and grinding in the beginning and then you only need to break it out on occasion (cutting a hole for shore power or plumbing). Do a pass where you cut what you need to cut. Change to the grinder and do a pass with that. A smidge of inconvenience is better than buying a bunch of cheap tools that’ll just end up in a landfill........And with conflicting advice, welcome to a time honored tradition of the site! For real, when in doubt, check to see how the pros do it

Ahhhh you beat me to the many ways to skin a cat. However while you listed some decent builds, I don't think they're pro's. The pro's do indeed have multiple grinders, as well as cutters, saws, drivers, etc. And they're not $10 Harbor Freight jobs. I'm not a pro and I'm working out of a single car garage but I have 6 separate ways to cut sheet metal, some more preferable to others (most to least pref): Scissors cutter ($65 HabFt), Angle grinder with diamond cutting wheel, angle grinder with grinding disc, plasma torch, jig saw, saws all (recip saw). And there must be a dozen more ways to skin that cat.

If you want to see quality work check out anything metal that's done by Transcend Existence, the entire build by BEAP on YouTube, and OMG the Broccoli Bus and Juans "beginning from tomorrow" 1960's transport bus.

 

[Salty Walty]

That poor cat. Why are we skinning a cat anyway?

My point is that, given all the expenses that pop up throughout a build, buying duplicate tools for convenience isn’t necessary. I know some builds go wild with metal, but if you’re keeping the windows and not doing a roof raise, you can make do with a single grinder.

The “pros” I (perhaps poorly) referenced are looking up how people do stuff in houses and then juxtaposing that against some build videos that are both pretty solid and also explain their process. Ultimately, we all have to make our own decisions based on the bus we have and our layout choices.

When I was new to skoolies, I came to this site hoping for hard and fast answers on how to do things (my personal saga on how to properly mount solar panels was exhaustive). I wanted OP to know that there’s a lot of knowledge aggregating you have to do. If we do more metal stuff, I’ll definitely check out your recommendations.

 

[HamSkoolie]

That poor cat. Why are we skinning a cat anyway?.

Well I thought we were skinning the cat for catgut and while it is used, I thought it was used for "natural" hot dogs....not sure how the word natural could apply to a hot dog but I guess its all in the definition used.
Anyway, I was wrong. Apparently natural skin hot dogs use sheep or pork "skins" (which is a nicer way of saying "intestines").


Yes, if you're doing minimal metal work swapping the working part of a single angle grinder will get the job done cheaper. We're only keeping 6 windows (plus the OEM door glass, windshields, and drivers window. Our windows are large coach type versus the traditional vertical bus sliders. So 3 1/2 sheets of steel just for the side windows. then there are the destination windows, the rear E exit window, and the rear roof top E exit. Then the entry door is getting converted to a single swing out, the roof rack system will be a custom rack made from angle iron supports bolted through the roof at four points on every other (maybe every) roof rib then angle iron risers to the rails themselves welded to the supports and rails.
And there's some body work some of which requires welding in patches in areas that will be readily visible.
And we can't forget the under vehicle storage compartments that will likely span the entire width of the bus between the wheel wells and be done after initial road trips are made to sort out any issues that may pop up before making it 10 times more difficult to access that area.
Lots of metal work. Cutting, grinding, welding, etc. So the metal working tools are out in force. When it comes time for the wood... that's a whole other set of tools.