Bus-less for now

[STS23]

Hello all,

I've been dreaming of building a skoolie for at least the last 7 years or so, but realized that my kids are only getting older and I'm losing time with them quickly. For that reason, I'm currently in the market for a skoolie to start road tripping with them while they're still young. I think I have a decent idea of what I'm looking for (Mid 2000s All American, 466 + Allison) but I have to sell my motorcycle to fund the acquisition.

I'll be in the market for a 40', but my main concern is the height. I'm 6'4" so the extra height seems like a must have. So, here's my super-noob question:

I've seen/heard of roof raises, but is there any possibility of dropping the floor instead? I'm mainly focused on RE layouts and I'm really only considering dropping the middle about 6-9" and 24-30" wide to the back axle. There shouldn't be any driveline components in the way, but would the floor supports be too much of a hurdle? Could they be mounted to the bottoms of the frame rails instead of the top?

I'm just trying figure out if there are high-top alternatives since they're either too far away, too much money, or have too many miles for me.

The current notional floor plan is a rear queen with two sets of battleship style bunk beds on either sides, preferably over the rear wheel wells. The floor drop would go back to the sleeping quarters, but no further.

Open to all comments, opinions, and criticisms. I have thick skin so if I'm an idiot then just say so.

Thanks all.

btw, anybody wanna buy a brand new Ducati? Bus life seems way cooler!

 

[fo4imtippin]

In my short opinion, some level of floor drop is possible, but its only about 30 in between the frame rails. Which are 10in btw (you could mount below them, but there is cross bracing between. For a rear engine, there are going to be things like coolant, power steering, power wires, gauges, ignitions, interlocks, etc that would need to be rerouted.. A roof raise is easier. If you are considering a drop floor design, i would take a look at a city transit bus. They basically come the way you want to make it, and they might already handle someone 6'4" better than a school bus.


I have seen a lot of transit busses for sale at auction lately in Florida. Some have Detroit, some have Cummins M-11, ISC or other. Based on what i have read (but not experienced), you would want to look for Allison transmission over Voith or ZF because its easier to find parts and service.

 

[musigenesis]

I dropped my floor 3" over an 8' section around my rear wheel wells, plus a shower and a closet against the outer walls that each go about 1' below the floor. You can't go further down than 3" (the distance between the original body floor and the tops of the chassis rails, which aren't going anywhere) unless you do it between the chassis rails (which aren't all that far apart as the album I linked shows, and the many cross-members will prevent you from going much further than 3" anyway) or outside of them (like I did with the shower and the closet).

A roof raise might seem like a lot of work but it's a lot less than a dropped floor. My project was really only feasible because I had to rebuild that part of my floor anyway - and arguably it would have made more sense to not buy a rusted-out bus in the first place. Also, I'm 6'0" and that's about as tall as you would want to be in my bus. A 6'4" dude would have a tough time, and my bus was 6'7" to start with, a size that is not at all common in school buses.

 

[STS23]

I hadn't really considered a transit bus yet. That's going to be plan A for now. Some of the ones that are currently listed look kinda rough for my budget. I'm looking to be sub-$10k for the bus. At that price point it seems like most have tons of miles or are in pretty rough shape. I'll certainly keep looking though.

That floor drop project looks pretty extensive. I hate rust! I'll be prioritizing rust free and good running over almost all else. I'd rather have a clean and good running bus than a comfortable bus. I know that may sound naïve, but I'm pretty accommodating. Being a parent of 4 and a former Marine has made me pretty easy going and self-sacrificing.

I may have to wait until I find a factory high-roof and pony up the extra coin for it.

Next question: Which basic config gives the most square footage behind the driver's seat? RE, FE Flat nose, or conventional?

In my notional RE build, I'm putting the queen longitudinally over the engine in the rear. I don't want to climb over the wife in the night.

FWIW, the intent of the bus is extensive long distance road trips with 4 kids (current ages 3, 10, 11, 15) for thousands of miles at a time. Hitting the lower 48 in 40 days type of thing. We need a highway runner that can sleep us and give us a place to eat meals, and that's about it. Nothing fancy. May have a toad, but not likely.

 

[STS23]

It looks like I have a buyer lined up for the bike so my skoolie fantasy can start to morph into my skoolie reality.

I know the topic has been beat to death, so forgive me for taking one more whack, but hopefully someone can confirm my assumptions::

1. 14 window All Americans of roughly the same era will be roughly (within a foot or so) the same size (usable interior volume) whether it’s dog-nosed, FE, or RE. ***I’m not set on BB, just using a recognizable model***

2. Most folks agree that there’s no replacement for displacement for highway rigs. The 8.3 Cummins + Allison 3060 is a pretty good combo on paper. Especially if 6th is unlocked.

3. Mercedes engines should be avoided.

4. Skoolie folks enjoy a better quality of life because skoolies are way cooler than using someone else’s design using crappy materials (as seen in sticks and staples builds)

5. Take your budget and notional timeline and double them and add 43%.

If these suspicions are correct then I think I may be beginning the search but with a little more vigor and a little more direction.

I looked into the transit style busses, but for every Gillig for sale there’s at least 20 BlueBirds and Thomases with half the miles. I still like the idea, but I’ll prolly end up settling.

 

[Albatross]

I looked into the transit style busses, but for every Gillig for sale there’s at least 20 BlueBirds and Thomases with half the miles. I still like the idea, but I’ll prolly end up settling.

Most of the other stuff has been beat to death, yes.
And you're mostly right.

I would add, if you have any familiarity with engines at all, don't discount an engine that looks familiar to you, or looks easier to work on for any reason whatsoever.

That said, you should also keep in mind that skoolies mileage is not like regular mileage on other automobiles that you're familiar with.

Skoolies are a great platform to begin with because of how tough they are built, because they are designed to go basically anywhere, in the roughest conditions, snow, sleet, hail, flooding, as well as down roads that most would break most modern passenger vehicles because of how rough they are. While carrying children. With random/substitute drivers. While being maintained by guys with a high school education that possibly couldn't get a job anywhere else.

While there are some school districts that take care of their roads, and actually spend money on hiring quality people, the engineering of (school) buses to live up to these demands is there for a reason... And that's because, more often than not, this is the reality of life for these heavy-duty work vehicles.

Oh, and they're job is literally start'n'stop traffic, all day, every day, low speed, up and down hills, and through the winter salt and the spring mud.

Skoolies are usually low miles because to effectively compare them, mileage on a skoolie should be at least doubled if not tripled to compare to most autos that people are familiar with.

 

[STS23]

I’m fairly handy. I’ve been an aircraft mechanic for a while, including about a decade as a federally certificated airframe and powerplant mechanic. Almost all of my experience on vehicles is repairing, maintaining, and restoring. Not much converting experience. But I love a challenge and it excites me to get cracking. My brother is an ASE master mechanic, and my FIL was a diesel truck mechanic for about 20 years. I’m sure that whatever is broke can be fixed as long as I’m close to home, but if one is more reliable (or parts are cheaper/more available, etc) then I’d rather go that route. My real fear is being broke down 1500 miles from home with limited resources. I’d hate to overheat crossing the Moab and be stranded with my 4 kids and wife and have to pay a $8k shop bill because I bought an underpowered turd.

 

[Albatross]

Then you should be fine.

I've got a 24' shorty that I bought largely because it's built on an old Chevy P-30 chassis. 6.2L "Detroit by Chevy" Diesel motor with a 4L80E auto tranny in it. It's got the mechanical injectors, so it won't stop, but without a turbo it's just a gutless PoS.

Mostly I bought it because parts availability on that thing should be in every auto parts store I come across. So far, haven't really been let down. But it sucks up hills.

 

[STS23]

Well, the bike is gone. Now the hunt begins with a little more vigor.

I’m not really looking to spend this much or travel 1800 miles… but these two buses seem fairly similar. Pretty equal mileage, same size/layout, but the ISC is $4k more than the Cat. Is that a fair premium? Or is it Blue Bird vs. Thomas? Doesn’t seem like 2004 vs. 2002 is that big of a difference. Obviously I don’t have much experience buying used school buses! Any input is appreciated.

https://www.rwcgroup.com/default.as...655948&p=1&s=Year&d=A&vt=bus&fr=xallinventory

https://www.rwcgroup.com/default.as...700189&p=1&s=Year&d=A&vt=bus&fr=xallinventory

 

[DeMac]

Wait - Patiently

Lots of picked over stock sitting on the shelf, gathering dust until a newbie buyer pays the price on the sticker.

Waiting for new quality stock to arrive can be difficult for those who have fire in their pockets. Excited, first-timers often blow their load on the first good paint job that crosses their path.

Take your time.

The best buses never make it to the shelf and demand higher bids at the auctions.

 

[STS23]

Agreed, and that’s great advice. I’m anticipating more buses becoming available now that summer has hit. I recognize that those prices are pretty high and I’m hoping to reserve more of my funds for the build and fuel than the initial acquisition. However, given the current market, a decent bus seems like it will be significantly more expensive for those of us trying to enter then game now vice 5 years ago. From looking at that seemingly “apples to apples” comparison, is the Cummins worth a 50% premium over the Cat? Seems high, but maybe it’s worth it. FWIW, I won’t be buying either of those buses, but I’m looking for something very similar to those.

 

[ManDogBus]

I'd heard several people suggest I lower my floor instead of raising my roof. The underside of a bus is not uniformly shaped, and would have led to some cramped spots and some properly tall spots (I'm 6'3).

I wanted extensive insulation, so I went with raising the roof 12", because I was likely to lose about 4" from the floor and ceiling with my plans.

I don't know if this is still relevant information, but raising my bus roof was very easy, comparatively. My bus is small (14' inside), so I had a heck of a lot less cutting to do compared to if you're going full size.

I was able to raise the roof completely on my own in about 6 hours. This is just for raising and placing the new hat channels, and excludes the time for planning, cutting, welding on the temporary supports, welding in the new hat channels, window deleting, new panels for the empty space you just created, etc.

Converting a full sized school bus on your own will probably take you 6 months if you do a full demo and raise or lower anything, probably longer if you are taking breaks and still have a full time job.

Good luck! If it all works out, your kids will be very lucky to have that experience. I'm about 3.5 months done, just added my new walls.

 

[STS23]

Definitely food for thought. Thanks. I’m not really a welder and I’d rather suffer some height cramps than leaks and structural damage from my shoddy welds.

I’m incredibly blessed to have a really great job that affords me a good deal of time off. I typically work 9 weeks on followed by 9 weeks off. I have a dream schedule of getting the bus near the end of July if possible so I have all of August to start demo, planning, and infrastructure. My next break will start early Nov. but I’m in FL so we don’t really have a winter. I’d love to be at least 90% complete with my minimalist build by the end of March 2023.

 

[STS23]

Still on the prowl but getting impatient

I've been mildly obsessing over finding a bus for the last week or so and I think I've looked at everything for sale in America. I found a couple that have piqued my interest. Both are flat front, both are 40'.

2000 RE International Amtran T444E & AT545 76" ceiling $6500

2002 International FE300 DT466 & Allison 2000 appears to be normal height ceiling $7800

The FE is more but it has the bigger engine and better transmission, plus about 50k fewer miles and it's closer to home. The problem is, I can't get the seller to respond. It's on FB marketplace... I realize that both of these are fairly high priced compared to some auction sites, but I'd rather pay a little more to be able to go look it over then exchange cash for a bus and drive it home. The seller with the T444 & 545 responded immediately, but I'm afraid of the 545 because of its bad reputation. I had an F350 with the 4R100 so overheating transmission issues scare me. I don't mind climbing a hill at 25mph, but I don't want to have a trashed transmission by the time I get to the top.

I'll probably be at the top end of weight, especially if I'm pulling a toad, so the transmission is super critical to me. I got rid of my camper and truck because I was nervous to drive it in July. I want to avoid that anxiety if possible.

Anybody see any big engine flat fronts for sale? I'm in the panhandle of Florida, but I'm willing to travel.

 

[Rochey6957]

Now that i have finished, my bus and taken it on 2 trips. A question that comes up is. "What would you have done different?" And I think its worth mentioning to most people considering this.....

I want to start by saying my build took 7 years. 5 of which were un-focused attention from my ex-gf, myself and various friends. And then 2 highly focused years working every weekend with my father. About 40 man hours a weekend for 100 weeks. So if you are truely feeling the pressure of "time" to enjoy it with your family, take heed, because if you want to make something as furnished and nice as a class b or class a motorhome boy, its a long strange trip.

So back to .... "What would you have done different?"

1. Simply, not do it. Too much time, money, stress, sacrifice, energy. i estimate my material costs in the $30k range. Original estimate was 10k.

2. Just buy a used 30ft motor home and refurbish it- (really consider do you need a self propelled vehicle, or will a trailer or pop up be sufficient)

3. Do a box truck chasis- decommissioned Uhaul. 8-10k for box truck chassis.

4. Get a CDL- Do a grey hound conversion. Build out would cost maybe a little bit more, but if you think you need to do a roof raise or floor drop. Just stop and go fins something with a higher roof. See box truck.

5. Invest aprx 30k over the course of 7 years into the stock market (100 bucks a week) - Large cap market funds - S&P500 - make a tidy little profit. buy class a


Just my thoughts after toiling on a roof rasie and a skoolie for years and finally seeing the "Fruits" of my labor.... Currently living full time in my skoolie as I rehab a duplex.

 

[Hutchy-SKO]

I've been mildly obsessing over finding a bus for the last week or so and I think I've looked at everything for sale in America. I found a couple that have piqued my interest. Both are flat front, both are 40'.

2000 RE International Amtran T444E & AT545 76" ceiling $6500

2002 International FE300 DT466 & Allison 2000 appears to be normal height ceiling $7800

The FE is more but it has the bigger engine and better transmission, plus about 50k fewer miles and it's closer to home. The problem is, I can't get the seller to respond. It's on FB marketplace... I realize that both of these are fairly high priced compared to some auction sites, but I'd rather pay a little more to be able to go look it over then exchange cash for a bus and drive it home. The seller with the T444 & 545 responded immediately, but I'm afraid of the 545 because of its bad reputation. I had an F350 with the 4R100 so overheating transmission issues scare me. I don't mind climbing a hill at 25mph, but I don't want to have a trashed transmission by the time I get to the top.

I'll probably be at the top end of weight, especially if I'm pulling a toad, so the transmission is super critical to me. I got rid of my camper and truck because I was nervous to drive it in July. I want to avoid that anxiety if possible.

Anybody see any big engine flat fronts for sale? I'm in the panhandle of Florida, but I'm willing to travel.

contact rosstaylor. https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f14/for-sale-blue-bird-activity-bus-by-arizona-school-39619.html

 

[STS23]

@Rochey6957 Your candor is very much appreciated, and duly noted. #1 has crossed my mind more than once, about as often as the buying a bus idea. My estimate is somewhere in the $15k-20k range, depending on initial bus cost. By my estimates, that's about 100 nights in a decent hotel, or 200 nights in a questionable motel. Plus the cost of fuel to move this behemoth around the country... So yeah, I totally get it.

The rebirth of this notion is my sons. They're obsessed with skateboarding and adventuring, so I have this dream of travelling the country on one of my breaks from work hitting every at least one skatepark in every state in the lower 48 along with all the cool national parks west of the Mississippi.

We already have a 12pax E-350 (on 35s!) that I could probably tow a pop-up or sub 5,000lb camper, but I'm afraid it would be rather cramped for 40 days on the road with 4 kids, a wife, and a stupid dog.

An RV would do the trick, but it just doesn't have the same appeal to me as getting to gut a bus and rebuild it with my sons for this epic once in a lifetime trip. Delusional? yep. Doe-eyed? most definitely. Naïve? without a doubt. Will I be crying on this forum when things don't go as I planned? probably so. But, it'll make great memories with my kids before they're too old/cool to hang out with me.

 

[Bus'n it]

I was building a smoothie with a roof raise and under at storage. I was at 40k with just a shell. I was propositioned to sell it so I did. At the end of the day and with my OCD, I would have spent the same as if buying a small house. I instead bought a Newell coach with the proceeds and renovated the interior but kept the cabinets. My post is here and something to consider. Not all RV’s are staples and toothpicks…


https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f32/transferred-to-the-coach-side-38254.html

 

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

@Rochey6957 Your candor is very much appreciated, and duly noted. #1 has crossed my mind more than once, about as often as the buying a bus idea. My estimate is somewhere in the $15k-20k range, depending on initial bus cost. By my estimates, that's about 100 nights in a decent hotel, or 200 nights in a questionable motel. Plus the cost of fuel to move this behemoth around the country... So yeah, I totally get it.

The rebirth of this notion is my sons. They're obsessed with skateboarding and adventuring, so I have this dream of travelling the country on one of my breaks from work hitting every at least one skatepark in every state in the lower 48 along with all the cool national parks west of the Mississippi.

We already have a 12pax E-350 (on 35s!) that I could probably tow a pop-up or sub 5,000lb camper, but I'm afraid it would be rather cramped for 40 days on the road with 4 kids, a wife, and a stupid dog.

An RV would do the trick, but it just doesn't have the same appeal to me as getting to gut a bus and rebuild it with my sons for this epic once in a lifetime trip. Delusional? yep. Doe-eyed? most definitely. Naïve? without a doubt. Will I be crying on this forum when things don't go as I planned? probably so. But, it'll make great memories with my kids before they're too old/cool to hang out with me.

not bus related but i would like a pic and more info on your stupid dog?
not saying you ok.
but its usually the dog owner and not the dog that has problems.
a pick of your dog would be nice but it doesnt change the stupid dog comment.
if it has an issue is different than being stupid.
born and raised with animals of all shapes and sizes and a stupid by your word animal is a not trained animal and that is the owner/handler fault?
not the animal.
if i hurt your feelings i am sorry and if you dont like your stupid dog the PM me i will take it with no questions asked.

 

[joeblack5]

Yes right on, what's up with a stupid dog..thanks for setting him straight.

Johan