Calling International Employees, Need Help

[nikitis]

I have a 3 box system and needs programming. The VPM is shot, I can order a new one on ebay, but obviously need it programmed properly to work well. I know it takes all 3 boxes to program.



Here's the rub, I've called a couple of International dealerships, and both told me there's a notice to have the modules shipped in and they will reprogram it. Both dealerships told me that they don't actually program it anymore but will only return you a fixed version of the VPM. Is this true? As in they fix anything electrically wrong with it but will ship back blank ECM/VPM's. One dealer had a customer they shipped the ECM to and it came back blank and he called International asking them the question "How does this help me or the customer?" and they basically said " We don't do the programming any longer." And the dealership lost the customer sale over it, because it wasn't programmed. So the dealership recommended to call independent shops to see if they can program them. When I call any shop who deals with older buses all state to me to call the dealer, and no one seems to know who can program them.



What I need is a solution to get these programmed. Does anyone have the capability to fully program the 3 box system? Specifically I need the VPM programmed as mine is shot, My ECM and IDM work. Willing to pay for the programming, and if I can find a place that will net me a complete programming job, I'll even send ya a finders fee for assisting. Could really use some help here. I'm near Charlotte, NC, but I already half expected to ship the modules out already so I don't care where they are located so anywhere or anyone who can do it will work for me.

 

[ewo1]

I have a 3 box system and needs programming. The VPM is shot, I can order a new one on ebay, but obviously need it programmed properly to work well. I know it takes all 3 boxes to program.



Here's the rub, I've called a couple of International dealerships, and both told me there's a notice to have the modules shipped in and they will reprogram it. Both dealerships told me that they don't actually program it anymore but will only return you a fixed version of the VPM. Is this true? As in they fix anything electrically wrong with it but will ship back blank ECM/VPM's. One dealer had a customer they shipped the ECM to and it came back blank and he called International asking them the question "How does this help me or the customer?" and they basically said " We don't do the programming any longer." And the dealership lost the customer sale over it, because it wasn't programmed. So the dealership recommended to call independent shops to see if they can program them. When I call any shop who deals with older buses all state to me to call the dealer, and no one seems to know who can program them.



What I need is a solution to get these programmed. Does anyone have the capability to fully program the 3 box system? Specifically I need the VPM programmed as mine is shot, My ECM and IDM work. Willing to pay for the programming, and if I can find a place that will net me a complete programming job, I'll even send ya a finders fee for assisting. Could really use some help here. I'm near Charlotte, NC, but I already half expected to ship the modules out already so I don't care where they are located so anywhere or anyone who can do it will work for me.

Try reaching out to these guys -> Orion ReFlash for Navistar

https://www.ficmrepair.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=202/mode=cat/cat202.htm

I know they have worked with a few folks here, maybe they can give you some direction?

I found this manual for the Orion reflash

 

[nikitis]

I will give them a call tomorrow, but the Orion cannot fully flash a VPM, it can only modify values. I called Power Hungry guys and they told me that specifically. But maybe these guys can do it another way or know someone. These guys seem to be able to sell you an IDM or ECM, but they don't mention VPM programming beyond the Orion solution.


Also because the VPM is dead, I cannot communicate on the J1708 port at all. The ACL data lines go from J1708 to the VPM, to the ECM over the DCL data lines. But none of the data requests get past the VPM, so it likely won't work at all.



Keep the contacts coming guys.

 

[cadillackid]

have you masde sure that the power and ground pins to the VPM are actually solidly good? as well as the comm lines? not just "they look good" but tested wit ha meter?

 

[ewo1]

This might sound like second guessing but as I try to help I also do learn a bit too!

Question: Does your bus start?

I read in another post you stated your bus starts and runs but runs in limp mode...is this accurate?

If yes.... then that would mean the the data lines are communicating to some degree...but, you say you can't communicate on the j1708 port?


How did you come to the conclusion that your VPM is DEAD?

Can you pull any codes at all?

 

[nikitis]

This might sound like second guessing but as I try to help I also do learn a bit too!

Question: Does your bus start?

I read in another post you stated your bus starts and runs but runs in limp mode...is this accurate?

If yes.... then that would mean the the data lines are communicating to some degree...but, you say you can't communicate on the j1708 port?


How did you come to the conclusion that your VPM is DEAD?

Can you pull any codes at all?

Yes it starts and runs in default mode because it cannot read data values from VPM.



Bluefire cannot read anything from the J1708 port. Those data lines are the "ACL" lines according to the wiring diagram. Those ACL lines go from the port to the VPM, and I had continuity on both ends of the VPM connector to the J1708. So Good lines.

I then did the other side from the VPM which are the "DCL" lines, which go from ECM to VPM. Tested the wiring from end to end. I used the ancient breakout box I purchased and there is continuity from end to end of the ECM and VPM connector, and ohmz are very close to spec. That only leaves the VPM as it's the only thing in the middle. Plus the error codes stating ECM cannot communicate to the VPM.


As Cadillackid stated it could be a grounding issue as when I tested a power line it seemed good, had the voltage, but the ground didn't seem to show continuity, but was unsure if it was an issue with my breakout box or it's truly open. So I'm not ruling out a grounding issue, but The wires are so bundled up and go to places I cannot trace where it is going to easily to verify ground. It's very difficult to trace this particular ground wire. I know it seems odd that I can do all of the above but not trace this wire properly but it simply is difficult to trace where it's going to without completely cutting open the harness.



I honestly though think there's a good chance it is a grounding issue and the VPM may actually function once corrected, because none of the ground ports on the breakout box where closed, but open. Assuming I was reading the diagram correctly on that. The data lines are clear to me on the diagram and tested with a meter and are good. So I'm 100% certain the VPM is either dead, or not powered. I'm hoping it's just not powered, and I may get a tech to look at it further since I'm kind of stumped on where the grounding issue may be which would be a far cheaper fix hopefully.


I can take the VPM out as I cut a firewall hole to access it. Is there a way I can test with a meter if the VPM is functional independently by probing the pins?


Also codes I get from flashing Warning light method:

First set of flashes (think are active codes)

223
622
224
221
123
325


Second set of flashing: (I believe are long standing codes or inactive)
223 (Again)
622 (Again)
615
233


The 223 is the ECM cannot communicate with VPM error.

 

[ewo1]

Thanks for that reply, I am sure it will help other understand when trying to help.
I think Cadillackid is spot on about power and ground.

A very helpful way for following/tracing wires is with a tone generator and amp probe.

I did a short sting as an underground telephone cable splicer, many times working on 2k-4k paired pulp (paper) cable and let me tell you, without a tone generator that is an impossible task.

The tone generator should have two tone settings, a warble and a solid steady tone.

Use the warble for following it thru the cable assembly and the solid for a final test at the end.

Do you have access to a t444e diagnostic manual?

I was reading one last night and read that the VPM and read this "Program the VPM using established programming procedures included in the Prolink Manual."

I don't know what a Prolink is or if can solve your problem, just sharing what I read.

 

[nikitis]

Thanks for that reply, I am sure it will help other understand when trying to help.
I think Cadillackid is spot on about power and ground.

A very helpful way for following/tracing wires is with a tone generator and amp probe.

I did a short sting as an underground telephone cable splicer, many times working on 2k-4k paired pulp (paper) cable and let me tell you, without a tone generator that is an impossible task.

The tone generator should have two tone settings, a warble and a solid steady tone.

Use the warble for following it thru the cable assembly and the solid for a final test at the end.

Do you have access to a t444e diagnostic manual?

I was reading one last night and read that the VPM and read this "Program the VPM using established programming procedures included in the Prolink Manual."

I don't know what a Prolink is or if can solve your problem, just sharing what I read.

A Prolink is an unobtainium device today. which is why no dealership has them and cannot program the VPM themselves any longer, and why they ship out all 3 modules to get programmed by Navistar HQ, but what I'm told is that even that isn't done any longer and they ship back working hardware wise, ECM/VPM/IDM's but no longer do the programming.



Edit: Let me rephrase that, a Pro-link 9000 is obtainable, but the "Cartridges" for International are impossible to find it seems. Boy these manufacturers found many ways to take mechanics money. Having to buy cartridges for $1000 back in the day per vehicle type.




We may need a 3rd party Jtagging device developed to jtag directly onto the VPM board, I'm wondering if we could do a read on the VPM chip as a bin format, and then read and edit it in a Hex Editor and then reflash it. Anyone up for that? We could buy a working VPM to grab a bin, and then modify VIN etc. I'm sure this has been done already by the Orion and Bluefire guys. Time to open source this? We need a more accessible solution for these 3 box buses.

 

[nikitis]

Anyone know if the pro-link 9000 "Ford" cartridge is the one used for International?


The breakout boxes are this way. (Ford breakout box working on the International)


Is this the same for the pro-link?


Honestly though you'd still need additional cables which may be impossible to find to connect to the VPM.

 

[ewo1]

I have the pinouts for the VPM/ECM/IDM but the file is too large to upload here.

PM your email addy and I'll send it to you.

 

[ewo1]

We may need a 3rd party Jtagging device developed to jtag directly onto the VPM board, I'm wondering if we could do a read on the VPM chip as a bin format, and then read and edit it in a Hex Editor and then reflash it. Anyone up for that? We could buy a working VPM to grab a bin, and then modify VIN etc. I'm sure this has been done already by the Orion and Bluefire guys. Time to open source this? We need a more accessible solution for these 3 box buses.

Great question for Caddilackid !

 

[ewo1]

Eges-125-1 - t444e diagnostic manual

FLASH CODE 223
ATA CODE SID 252 FMI 7
VPM NOT COMMUNICATING WITH ECM

Symptom: Flash code 223 causes the engine to
operate in Field Defaults, which turns the Engine
Warning Light ON. When Field Defaults are being
used by the ECM, Flash Code 622 also is set. If the
condition causing code 223 is intermittent, and the
condition is no longer present, the code will change
to an inactive code, and the engine will resume
normal operation.

Wiring Causes: DCl circuits 97AS and/or 97AT
between the ECM and VPM: shorted low or High or
Open.

If code 223 is active:
1. Perform TESTING DCl CIRCUITS on page 47.
A. If defect is found in DCl circuit, correct defect.
B. If the DCl circuits (97AT and 97AS) check
good, replace the VPM.


Page 47-doc

 

[nikitis]

So I checked that FICRepair site, called them. They can program IDM, and ECM, but not the VPM. They stated to try Power Hungry guys but i already spoke with them, they stated they cannot fully program the VPM, only update the settings for certain variables which I'd like to do as well, but they require a fully functioning VPM to work.


I'll check those two wires, but it may have to wait until Saturday. I'm finalizing the King Pin/airbrake job then, and then I can fully devote my time to this issue. I have too many parts on the floor blocking the inside wiring area right now.

 

[ewo1]

Keep alive memory power

Don't know if you already have this info but at least I'm learning about the VPM!


Here is another doc that reflects the power circuits to both the ECM and VPM, from the T444e diagnostic manual.

KEEP ALIVE MEMORY POWER AND VPM BATTERY POWER CIRCUIT

CIRCUIT OPERATION

The Electronic Control Module (ECM) has information stored in volatile memory which is erased or lost when power is disconnected from the module. This memory is referred to as KeepAlive Memory (KAM).

The ECM stores historical diagnostic information from previous engine operating cycles, learned limits from certain engine and vehicle sensors and programmable parameters sent from the VPM.

The Vehicle Personality Module (VPM) utilizes the KAM power circuit to remain powered for at least 30 minutes after each key off cycle to record accumulator values for vehicle miles, hours and fuel used.

FAULT DETECTION MANAGEMENT

On every power up KAM memory in the ECM is checked by the processor to determine if any information in memory has been lost or can be stored correctly.
A fault code will be set if power has been disconnected, information sent from the VPM does not agree with the last power up or if the memory internal to the ECM is defective.

There is no fault detection for loss of KAM power to the the VPM, however, the VPM will be unable to communicate with the Electronic Service Tool (EST)
when the ignition key is in the OFF position.

 

[ewo1]

Ecm self diagnostics

For those, like me, who want to learn more and understand...

FLASH CODES - 111, 224, 254, 255, 615, 625, 631 & 632

T444-E - ELECTRONIC CONTROL MODULE SELF DIAGNOSTICS (ECM)

SIGNAL FUNCTIONS
The Electronic Control Module (ECM) monitors and controls engine operation and performance, vehicle features such as PTa and cruise control, communicates information to the Vehicle Personality Module (VPM) and Injector Drive Module (10M).


FAULT DETECTION MANAGEMENT
The ECM is capable of internal fault detection and dependent upon the severity of the problem, can provide fault management strategies to allow limited engine/vehicle operation.

 

[nikitis]

Don't know if you already have this info but at least I'm learning about the VPM!


The ECM stores historical diagnostic information from previous engine operating cycles, learned limits from certain engine and vehicle sensors and programmable parameters sent from the VPM.

This is what the KAM does, it's basically Non-Volatile RAM, but will die if battery is disconnected etc. The VPM will restore those values when powered on again to know what to run the engine at. (If it's not dead and working)

The Vehicle Personality Module (VPM) utilizes the KAM power circuit to remain powered for at least 30 minutes after each key off cycle to record accumulator values for vehicle miles, hours and fuel used.

Since my VPM is dead it's also not recording miles, and neither is my odometer moving or speedometer. Another symptom I believe of the VPM.

FAULT DETECTION MANAGEMENT

On every power up KAM memory in the ECM is checked by the processor to determine if any information in memory has been lost or can be stored correctly.
A fault code will be set if power has been disconnected, information sent from the VPM does not agree with the last power up or if the memory internal to the ECM is defective.

This isn't quite the issue, but the effect is the same because the ECM cannot speak with the VPM it throws a code and runs Default values (limp mode), which are safe to operate the engine at in any type of vehicle (Because it doesn't know what vehicle it's running! No vehicle personality module.)

There is no fault detection for loss of KAM power to the the VPM, however, the VPM will be unable to communicate with the Electronic Service Tool (EST)
when the ignition key is in the OFF position.

Also fails to communicate with KEY ON, if it's dead or powered off due to a grounding issue which is why I think they are the two possible issues.

 

[nikitis]

ewo1


So..... thanks for the private links. I got the model number off of it from the listing, and found another with the manual for $150, I just bought it LMAO!!!


I searched for the manual and couldn't find one so it seemed like a rare thing. Even had the manual number and couldn't find a copy anywhere on the net so I purchased it.

 

[ewo1]

ewo1


So..... thanks for the private links. I got the model number off of it from the listing, and found another with the manual for $150, I just bought it LMAO!!!


I searched for the manual and couldn't find one so it seemed like a rare thing. Even had the manual number and couldn't find a copy anywhere on the net so I purchased it.

great news!

I just sent you another link,....

 

[nikitis]

Update for everyone reading this. I just bought a Pro-link 9000 with 4 cartridges for $150, bought the separate International Cartridge with mint condition manual for $150, and a 6 port J1708 Adapter.


With the Breakout box I already bought (Ford Model which is identical to the International unobtainium one). Tested and is the same electrically, and the purchase of the Pro-Link 9000, I think I have all of the diagnostic and programming equipment for these 1994-1997 3-Box buses. I don't know if these can program a VPM or not, but I guess we'll find out. I hope it can do more than read error codes.


None of these items are going to program my VPM in it's current state if it's a power/ground issue, or faulty VPM, because I already know from the bluefire I bought data isn't passing through to the VPM, so I'm not going to be able to program anything through the J1708 until I fix that, but assuming it is just a grounding issue, then I can maybe use these to modify parameters to a degree once corrected?


If anyone is ever in the Charlotte, NC or Northern South Carolina region, and need a diagnostic on their bus, I'll do them for free if you have a 3-box!