Can t444e with manual trans tow a half ton truck???

[cxzcxzcxz12345]

Hey folks,

I have a question about my skoolie’s towing capability. My bus is a 30-ft mid-size bus with a manual transmission and a T444E engine. I’m planning to tow a half-ton F150, but I’m concerned about whether the engine can handle such a heavy load.

The GVWR of my bus is 25,500 lbs. I haven’t weighed it yet since it’s still under construction, but the fully loaded weight of the F150 is around 5,500 lbs. Do you think my bus can safely tow this weight?

I’m particularly worried because I had a bad experience driving the bus uphill in the past. I had to shift down to 1st gear to climb the hill. At the time, I was new to driving a manual transmission, so it’s possible the bus could have handled the climb in 2nd gear, but I shifted to 1st out of caution.

My questions are:
1. Do you think my bus can safely tow this weight?
2. What is the typical weight of a mid size skoolie, I have no idea how heavy is 25,500 lbs and should I worry overweight my bus?
3. Is anyone here driving a manual T444E like mine? Would you feel confident towing a 5,000+ lb load with it?

 

[Mr P]

I think your buss won't notice there is a 5000 lb truck in tow. Up hill will be slower. Down mountain grades you should be a touch more cautious.

FWIW, I used a 5000 lb truck to tow a car on a trailer totaling about 5000 lb. I didn't get in a hurry on accel or decel.

 

[Albatross]

Hey folks,

I have a question about my skoolie’s towing capability. My bus is a 30-ft mid-size bus with a manual transmission and a T444E engine. I’m planning to tow a half-ton F150, but I’m concerned about whether the engine can handle such a heavy load.

The GVWR of my bus is 25,500 lbs. I haven’t weighed it yet since it’s still under construction, but the fully loaded weight of the F150 is around 5,500 lbs. Do you think my bus can safely tow this weight?

I’m particularly worried because I had a bad experience driving the bus uphill in the past. I had to shift down to 1st gear to climb the hill. At the time, I was new to driving a manual transmission, so it’s possible the bus could have handled the climb in 2nd gear, but I shifted to 1st out of caution.

My questions are:
1. Do you think my bus can safely tow this weight?
2. What is the typical weight of a mid size skoolie, I have no idea how heavy is 25,500 lbs and should I worry overweight my bus?
3. Is anyone here driving a manual T444E like mine? Would you feel confident towing a 5,000+ lb load with it?

The number you're looking for is the "GCWR" The "C" is for "combined", as in "combined vehicle & trailer". That will tell you what the power plant and braking system is rated for.



With regards to #2, all you need is to find a truck scale local to you. They are common on the interstates, as well as at truck stops, and oftentimes other locations where big rigs frequently go. Once you find one, you can simply show up and pay to get a ticket. I did this a few times in the military with a 1983 Big Bronco, simply because the military would cover my travel expenses with the ticket, and with the pickup loaded and unloaded. Most scales will tell you your actual axle weights, too, which is important, and if you're really lucky, you can find one that will tell you left-right weights as well. It takes hardly any time at all, and you'll probably spend more time waiting for someone to either man the scales, or for someone in front of you to move than you will waiting for the ticket.



A bus can easily move it, but the question is "for how long?". I've moved my bus with a Ford Ranger, up a steep hill, but I wouldn't want to do it again. I kept it in second gear, and only because I had to.



Additionally, you should really never use 1st gear for anything other than starting the bus moving. Once you're moving, you should never downshift beyond 2nd until you come to a full and complete stop. Your transmission and your wallet will thank you. If you really have to downshift to get up or down a hill, keep it in 2nd gear or higher.



If you really have to downshift up or down a hill, keep it in 2nd or higher.

If you really have to downshift up or down a hill, keep it in 2nd or higher.

 

[kromboy]

Shouldn't be a problem for a bus to tow any passenger vehicle, bus is probably expected to carry more than that in passenger weight alone.

One exception/caution I would take is if your bus is rear engine, frame doesn't extend all the way back on those.

 

[cxzcxzcxz12345]

Shouldn't be a problem for a bus to tow any passenger vehicle, bus is probably expected to carry more than that in passenger weight alone.

One exception/caution I would take is if your bus is rear engine, frame doesn't extend all the way back on those.

It’s a dog nose front engine bus.

 

[cxzcxzcxz12345]

The number you're looking for is the "GCWR" The "C" is for "combined", as in "combined vehicle & trailer". That will tell you what the power plant and braking system is rated for.



With regards to #2, all you need is to find a truck scale local to you. They are common on the interstates, as well as at truck stops, and oftentimes other locations where big rigs frequently go. Once you find one, you can simply show up and pay to get a ticket. I did this a few times in the military with a 1983 Big Bronco, simply because the military would cover my travel expenses with the ticket, and with the pickup loaded and unloaded. Most scales will tell you your actual axle weights, too, which is important, and if you're really lucky, you can find one that will tell you left-right weights as well. It takes hardly any time at all, and you'll probably spend more time waiting for someone to either man the scales, or for someone in front of you to move than you will waiting for the ticket.



A bus can easily move it, but the question is "for how long?". I've moved my bus with a Ford Ranger, up a steep hill, but I wouldn't want to do it again. I kept it in second gear, and only because I had to.



Additionally, you should really never use 1st gear for anything other than starting the bus moving. Once you're moving, you should never downshift beyond 2nd until you come to a full and complete stop. Your transmission and your wallet will thank you. If you really have to downshift to get up or down a hill, keep it in 2nd gear or higher.



If you really have to downshift up or down a hill, keep it in 2nd or higher.

If you really have to downshift up or down a hill, keep it in 2nd or higher.

Thank you for all the helpful information.

I don’t see my bus carrying exceptionally heavy loads, 200 gallon fresh water tank may be a burden but that’s only 1600lbs. Besides that, there are just common rv stuff like fridge and stove. I’ll find a scale as soon as possible. But unfortunately, I couldn’t find GCWR anywhere on the tag.

 

[cadillackid]

somewhere i remember reading or hearing from a production engineer in. one of my school bus enthusiast groups that they allowed for 100 lbs per child at 65/66 passenger elementary / middle school plus 20 lbs of luggage per child and then had a 15-20% padding figure in creating the GVWR... the GVWR was based on the chassis rating generally.. which includes the axles and springs and brakes especially.. of course the axles used determined the hub size so rim size and width were part of it to calculate weight per tire and the recommended pressure...



based on what they came up with for GVWR they then chose engine and transmission and rear gear combos that were compatible..



school busses typically have no tow rating as they arent designed or built to tow.. the chassis however are capable of towing since they are basically 4700 truck chassis.. how uch depends on your complete setup.



towing is a big different, especially flat towing as you arent putting strain on the springs and tires but instead on the drivetrain and driveline...



at this point you have to look at the rating of your transmisison and axles and of course brakes.. flat towing a vehicle means your bus brakes do all the work unless you have a fancy setup that can actuate the towed-vehicle brakes (friend of mine has this on his motorhome)..



can the T444E tow heavy loads? it can with the right gears and the right programming.... its easy using the god mode service maxx to turn its power up to the 210 or possibly 230 HP setting to get a little more juice out of it... I would most definitely install an EGT gauge if playing at horsepower mods...



what about the clutch and transmission? this I dont know other than guys in my Navistar 4000 series group talk of the spicer 5 speed not being a very stout gearbox..


I dont know what its specific shortfalls are as ive never torn one apart to see failure points.. in my own busses ive stuck with automatics..

 

[skoontz]

Since we are talking GVWR and GCWR, would there ever be a case where the combined weight rating would be lower than the vehicle weight rating? I've been assuming that, assuming a correctly installed hitch, I could tow any trailer as long as truck/bus and trailer are within the GVWR.

 

[s2mikon]

The on thing I missed in this thread is brakes on the toad. At this weight you really need an auxiliary braking system to be safe and legal. These include a break away system to stop a loose toad. Up hill would not be my concern. Down hill is another story. Please don't take chances.

 

[kromboy]

I would imagine you're correct.

Because we're talking payload vs. towable weight.
For example, my truck has a payload likely in the range of 2-3k lbs, but can tow 10k.

Payload would include tongue weight + passengers and cargo, and tongue weight of a trailer is always much less than that of its actual weight.

Since we are talking GVWR and GCWR, would there ever be a case where the combined weight rating would be lower than the vehicle weight rating? I've been assuming that, assuming a correctly installed hitch, I could tow any trailer as long as truck/bus and trailer are within the GVWR.

 

[nikitis]

It'll tow that EZ. Especially with the AT545. It's meant to tow, just not go fast.

Above 10k, is where it starts to get questionable.

Also it would be wise to have an alternative brake system tied to the trailer, and that requires installing a trailer brake package for the bus. Curt makes a good cheap one.

https://www.amazon.com/CURT-51116-Time-Delay-Controller-Adjustable/dp/B0CC2XXMRJ/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2IK50YJFS3STY&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ysxy1kglqeFTL-dh8AJa_ZL_F9niwPUANcdYDh8M49397OSIqdjcav2YjX5fG4b-itOSo99Oo_hZaA9TnGkPMQV2ApDQhkN7MyguQQOwVypDL39CCSvpmyROyGHuW5Wn4suBnZA23P5SNuD8w72_tAsbkDDKZ0lUkyVXhIRbWATxo_9xXHllHXBZ-IBzToO98bj2oCcKUYtV20UJs86l0gTDZUorh1u07KVjB2u7F3XvHm0FEFXiEEgGvke4lj4nQGYWnneo4HPxzkBST2D4HBho56DQMzao6cZd9j8vpJ3hcaV7v8joVw1qGJS6Y5Q3-vwR7btb0ETpXD5xzPSs6DmCtGOfg5IAVEpPiCN_n91BONCeBcH5gSt2McPqHQ9TLE1fJHSKozfutEG47Jv8pPHyLbhBnjn__odn17r5zWNQrDDY_ARUdaXVeR4cyweI.9nrg4pkZNdPwnYzwqDkdUrQxAqAqu3D8lJhUPoPilSI&dib_tag=se&keywords=curt+trailer+brake+controller+kit&qid=1734556594&sprefix=curt+trailer+brake%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-2

 

[cadillackid]

AT545 is absolutely not meant to tow. Not even slow.. it’s a stop n go transmission period.

 

[Ronnie-SKO]

most states require trailer brakes above 3000lbs, and I believe this includes flat towing a vehicle.


For what it is worth My Thomas bus has a GVWR of 35,000 and actual weight after conversion is 24,000lbs. So I would say that I am good for towing up too 11,000 without brakes as the bus is designed to stop a total of 35,000lbs. Please understand I am not advacating towing that much without trailer brakes. I like good brakes on a trailer, and would want them on a "toad" as well. a friend had his Jeep take leave of the bus, and it traveled a good ways before coming to a stop out in the desert. Imagine if that happened on a crowded highway...



The bus in my signature is built specifically for towing, bigger engine( out of a dump truck), larger axles with air brakes, and a 5 speed manual meant for heavier trucks. Think the trans is rated for 50,000 lbs GVWR. Also I have a trailer brake controller, and an air ride hitch good for 16,000lbs of trailer.

 

[Ronnie-SKO]

Oh one question, do you start out in first gear normal driving? Many 5 speeds have a very low 1st that is unsycronized and not normally used except to start up a hill or pulling a heavy load. Hence the warning not to downshift to first. However a pickup or car with a 5 speed you would start in first, and it is sycronized, and can be shifted to first while moving. So if it tends to grind going into first then you need to put it in second to stop the gears from spinning then put it in first. And first would not be used normally.



A truck 5 speed can be shifted to first if you double clutch. There is an art to this, or busted trans may result.

 

[Albatross]

Since we are talking GVWR and GCWR, would there ever be a case where the combined weight rating would be lower than the vehicle weight rating? I've been assuming that, assuming a correctly installed hitch, I could tow any trailer as long as truck/bus and trailer are within the GVWR.

I imagine that there is probably some incredibly bastardized contraption possible that, through some careful selection of an abomination of geometry and the worst possible drivetrain imaginable where such a thing would be possible.... But generally, no.

 

[Albatross]

Oh one question, do you start out in first gear normal driving? Many 5 speeds have a very low 1st that is unsycronized and not normally used except to start up a hill or pulling a heavy load. Hence the warning not to downshift to first. However a pickup or car with a 5 speed you would start in first, and it is sycronized, and can be shifted to first while moving. So if it tends to grind going into first then you need to put it in second to stop the gears from spinning then put it in first. And first would not be used normally.

A truck 5 speed can be shifted to first if you double clutch. There is an art to this, or busted trans may result.

Of course you can start out in first, but you start in first from a stop. And what you're talking about is usually called a "granny gear", because it drives slow as grandma's driving, but it can usually pull a stump out of the ground, pull a house down, or pull a single-wide trailer home so long as you keep it slow enough to not blow anything up.



Even with a syncro on the tranny, you really don't want to downshift to first for pretty much anything. First gear is for starting moving, loaded or not. Most manuals from the '70s onwards can be started in second-gear, too, but you generally don't want to do that in most cases--exceptions might be starting on a downhill slope, or starting moving in something very powerful like a dodge viper where people unfamiliar with the drivetrain are likely to spin the wheels starting in first.



I've learned to drive on a stickshift pickup truck, and have driven a number of manual trannys over the years, in sports cars and heavy trucks, and just about everything in between. As a general rule, you should never downshift to first gear for anything, and first gear should only be used for starting moving. If you need to use some engine braking--which I do pretty much every time I drive a stick, which is almost daily, you can downshift to second, but never really go to first.



The only reason I can think of to ever downshift into first while moving is if you've got a relatively heavy load (for your drivetrain) and you're slowing while going uphill, and you've already slowed down past the 10 MPH lock-out. I would probably keep it in second until about 5-7 MPH in most transmissions, though.


Doing otherwise could create a serious breakage situation where if, for whatever reason, your engine winds up over-accelerating or over-torquing, you could break something major in your engine or your drivetrain. Second is much better, and is much less likely to break anything, especially when combined with adequate brakes.

 

[Ronnie-SKO]

Let me be more clear. Granny gear on truck transmissions that have them, it is not normally used. The second gear call it first as I have seen it called, but I call it second is normally used as your first gear . So I am trying to find out what his bus has a granny gear first or a true you need to start in first gear.



Certainly in off road heavy hauling dropping to granny gear is done, and I have done it many times without breaking anything.



I think at this point all we are doing is going to confuse the guy. I wonder if he has a really low horsepower 444? 170 maybe?

 

[cadillackid]

I could see some wierd numbers in a rear engine related to tongue weight.. where with no passengers on board you exceed the rear axle rating with a trailer that has a heavy tongue weight while not yet reaching the GVWR..

 

[Albatross]

I could see some wierd numbers in a rear engine related to tongue weight.. where with no passengers on board you exceed the rear axle rating with a trailer that has a heavy tongue weight while not yet reaching the GVWR..

I would argue that a heavy tongue weight is generally the result of improper load-balancing on the trailer; although doing something like trying to trailer a skoolie could certainly result in a heavy tongue. Generally, though, anything like that would normally be towed using a 5th-wheel or gooseneck trailer. I think for anything being bumper-pulled, you're generally only going to be looking at a max of 400 lbs tongue-weight, unless you're using a pintle-hitch.

 

[Ronnie-SKO]

Normal tongue weight should be 10 % of total trailer weight. Large ball or pintle can handle a good bit. Most skoolie are just trying to pull a car or pickup though.