Can t444e with manual trans tow a half ton truck???

[cadillackid]

I would argue that a heavy tongue weight is generally the result of improper load-balancing on the trailer; although doing something like trying to trailer a skoolie could certainly result in a heavy tongue. Generally, though, anything like that would normally be towed using a 5th-wheel or gooseneck trailer. I think for anything being bumper-pulled, you're generally only going to be looking at a max of 400 lbs tongue-weight, unless you're using a pintle-hitch.

I only broguht it up as a theoretical.. school busses are not even close to good tow vehicles unless you plan to never back up... that tail swing and long wheel base....

 

[Mr P]

I've learned to drive on a stickshift pickup truck, and have driven a number of manual trannys over the years, in sports cars and heavy trucks, and just about everything in between. As a general rule, you should never downshift to first gear for anything, and first gear should only be used for starting moving. If you need to use some engine braking--which I do pretty much every time I drive a stick, which is almost daily, you can downshift to second, but never really go to first.

I totally disagree. 1st is there for the same reason as any other gear: to provide the correct gear ratio for the situation. I've driven all manner of medium to light duty manuals, and have never had or caused any problems when downshifting into 1st. (Assuming engine RPM, gear ratio, and road speed all "match"....I'm not talking about clutching at 100 mph and pushing a shifter into 1st gear and letting the synchros spin the clutch disc about 20,000 RPM.)

 

[Omnibot2000]

For legality purposes call in your VIN and find out what your GCWR is. You may find it's nothing as it's a bus however I do see commercial coaches pulling trailers so.....

Weigh your bus loaded. That is you vehicle weight. Subtract your GCWR and you will be left with towable weight.

Like any towbehind, make sure it can brake.

Say bus is 20,000lbs and you have 26,000GCWR you can tow 6000lbs.

After you have your max load with trailer, measure your axles. You also don't want to overload your axle as they have a rating themselves.

As for starting in 2nd gear. I don't incourage that. It will either be L for low and then 1, 2, 3 and so on. Then you have the dedicated 1, 2, 3......of course there are some transmission out there that are different but I recommend following the recommendation from the transmission manufacturer on how to shift the thing. I've driven transmissions with 3 low gears and I could set the engine at high idle and jump out and walk beside the thing. A real farm truck it was.

 

[Diverdude0075]

It should tow fine.

I've used my 7.3 auto to tow my F100 more than 1500 miles. I do have a tune and upgraded the trans to an A2000.

You should be fine generally speaking and there are much more detailed answers already. Just sharing that I did it with the same engine with no issues.

 

[Albatross]

As for starting in 2nd gear. I don't incourage that. It will either be L for low and then 1, 2, 3 and so on.

The question wasn't so much starting out in second, but rather down-shifting into first once you're already moving, for purposes of engine-braking or slowing down, like on a hill.
And I was saying that it should generally never be done, since second gear is superior for that sort of thing.

 

[cadillackid]

The question wasn't so much starting out in second, but rather down-shifting into first once you're already moving, for purposes of engine-braking or slowing down, like on a hill.
And I was saying that it should generally never be done, since second gear is superior for that sort of thing.

why not shift to first if you are going slow enough? thr biggest mistake i see done is people shifting to first too soon while moving and when first is a granny gear. then seemingly modulating the clutch like its a brake... (brakes are cheaper than clutches)..


first isnt a granny gear in all transmissions... in those type I shift to first all the time.. its often easier to catch first while still on a real slow roll vs being completely stopped..

 

[Omnibot2000]

The question wasn't so much starting out in second, but rather down-shifting into first once you're already moving, for purposes of engine-braking or slowing down, like on a hill.
And I was saying that it should generally never be done, since second gear is superior for that sort of thing.

Can you explain? Like to know why. Never heard of that.

I've had to use 1st a number of times. The one time I vividly remember was in the BC mountains. There was a little parking lot for site seeing and a very windy steep grade. Going up in 2nd gear was fine, had the torque. Coming down I started in 3rd(realised that was a mistake), dropped to 2nd and had to pump the brakes to slow down, let go, speed up, hit brakes......needless to say I was brake fading. I dropped to first gear and held fine. The whole time I never went over 15kms/hr. Was not high speed. Just a crazy steep grade.

 

[nikitis]

1st is for torque period. Anything requiring torque should use first when starting out from 0 mph. 2nd should be shifted into quickly after the initial momentum is built up. If you are towing something it takes longer to build that momentum and 1st works better and you can drive in it a little longer. You shouldn't shift into 2nd so quickly if overweighted. If running at normal weight you should shift to 2nd as soon as the vehicle is moving.

Been my experience with almost all manual vehicles i've driven.

Even trucks with trailer packages when you enable it, all it does is keep the transmission in gear longer at higher RPM's when hauling. This is to build up the momentum and then switch. If heavier it takes longer to build up the momentum.

I've driven manual all my life, and I can make a manual shifter last 150,000 miles. Average driver has to change or have manual trans worked on after 90,000 miles due to user error of mis-shifting. All manuals are wear items and are meant to blow around 90k'ish miles. You can tell how correctly you are driving your manual vehicle by how many miles it gets on it before it wears out. Many people wear them out before 90k, and that means they aren't shifting at the right times. A normal driver is 90k, and a good driver is up to 150k before needing replacement, but I don't know anyone who's gone beyond 150k on the original manual unless the majority of the miles are long straight road miles.

To Omnibot2000's comment. I agree. Brakes are cheaper than clutches, and I only use shift braking if in the mountains on decline. My Camaro even states to NEVER use the shifter to brake. My previous cars were told you could use the shifter to brake.

I feel like older manuals were built better than modern ones. The quality of manuals has gone down hill because they aren't made as much now in practice. They are far simpler in design but since a lot of trans mechanics lately have trouble working on them in my experience. My Camaro shifter isn't as smooth as my previous cars either. Feels like it wasn't built as well.

 

[Mr P]

1st is for torque period. Anything requiring torque should use first when starting out from 0 mph. 2nd should be shifted into quickly after the initial momentum is built up. If you are towing something it takes longer to build that momentum and 1st works better and you can drive in it a little longer. You shouldn't shift into 2nd so quickly if overweighted. If running at normal weight you should shift to 2nd as soon as the vehicle is moving.

Been my experience with almost all manual vehicles i've driven.

Even trucks with trailer packages when you enable it, all it does is keep the transmission in gear longer at higher RPM's when hauling. This is to build up the momentum and then switch. If heavier it takes longer to build up the momentum.

I've driven manual all my life, and I can make a manual shifter last 150,000 miles. Average driver has to change or have manual trans worked on after 90,000 miles due to user error of mis-shifting. All manuals are wear items and are meant to blow around 90k'ish miles. You can tell how correctly you are driving your manual vehicle by how many miles it gets on it before it wears out. Many people wear them out before 90k, and that means they aren't shifting at the right times. A normal driver is 90k, and a good driver is up to 150k before needing replacement, but I don't know anyone who's gone beyond 150k on the original manual unless the majority of the miles are long straight road miles.

To Omnibot2000's comment. I agree. Brakes are cheaper than clutches, and I only use shift braking if in the mountains on decline. My Camaro even states to NEVER use the shifter to brake. My previous cars were told you could use the shifter to brake.

I feel like older manuals were built better than modern ones. The quality of manuals has gone down hill because they aren't made as much now in practice. They are far simpler in design but since a lot of trans mechanics lately have trouble working on them in my experience. My Camaro shifter isn't as smooth as my previous cars either. Feels like it wasn't built as well.

Wow. I should have put on my rubber boots before reading that. So many...false statements.

 

[nikitis]

Nothing false about lived experience. It's quite commonly known that manual shifters are "Wear" items. Look it up. Each vehicle has it's variance in longevity, but most of them wear out before the end of life of the vehicle. It's always been the expectation when you go to buy a manual car from a dealership. They are cheaper because they aren't as complex as an automatic, but the dealership makes up the difference when you have to repair the transmission when the car is 1/2 or 3/4 of it's life.

And regards to 1st gear, It's point is to get you from 0 to 1-10 on average which is essentially getting past moving the whole of a Stationary Vehicle to having some momentum and has the most torque due to the ratio. This is all well known by anyone age 40 and older.

 

[cadillackid]

Nothing false about lived experience. It's quite commonly known that manual shifters are "Wear" items. Look it up. Each vehicle has it's variance in longevity, but most of them wear out before the end of life of the vehicle. It's always been the expectation when you go to buy a manual car from a dealership. They are cheaper because they aren't as complex as an automatic, but the dealership makes up the difference when you have to repair the transmission when the car is 1/2 or 3/4 of it's life.

And regards to 1st gear, It's point is to get you from 0 to 1-10 on average which is essentially getting past moving the whole of a Stationary Vehicle to having some momentum and has the most torque due to the ratio. This is all well known by anyone age 40 and older.

I call BS on manual shifters are wear items.. if you were a trucker youd have ended up in a ball of molten twisted metal on your first trip over a real hill...



truckers are told to downshift on descent.. ive downshifted any manual ive ever had going downhill pulling a trailer.. maybe on a honda civic you dont need to downshift but on any larger rig its a huge help..


im trying to think if we ever rebuilt the manual in either of our scouts growing up.. we had a transfer case rebuilt.. and i remember a clutch at 150K miles when the pressure plate failed.... dad always downshifted when we pulled a trailer or were loaded heavy.. and that was pretty often..


while its true brakes caost less than clutches and gearboxes, its also true that overheated brakes become less useful and even dangerous if overheated too much then not serviced.


one of. the big reasons people hated automatics in heavier vehicles was the fact in old ones you couldnt downshift easily.. esp pickup trucks pulling trailers where there was no lockup even until the 80s.


clutches can be said to be wear items but not the gearbox.. people driving in cities are more likely to wear out clutches as they do more stop N go.. and floating gears with a synchro gearbox isnt recommended.. it is rtypical on a non synchro gearbox.. saves the clutch..

 

[Mr P]

Nothing false about lived experience. It's quite commonly known that manual shifters are "Wear" items. Look it up. Each vehicle has it's variance in longevity, but most of them wear out before the end of life of the vehicle. It's always been the expectation when you go to buy a manual car from a dealership. They are cheaper because they aren't as complex as an automatic, but the dealership makes up the difference when you have to repair the transmission when the car is 1/2 or 3/4 of it's life.

And regards to 1st gear, It's point is to get you from 0 to 1-10 on average which is essentially getting past moving the whole of a Stationary Vehicle to having some momentum and has the most torque due to the ratio. This is all well known by anyone age 40 and older.

I didn't say your "lived experience" was false, but you seem to start from those experiences and then LEAPED to some conclusions, which are false.

Clutches should never be slipped, unlike brakes. Therefore, the clutch does NOT wear when downshifting.

All gears exchange RPM for torque (until overdrive gears, which exchange torque for RPM). Pick the gear ratio that fits the need.

My "lived experience" is that I'm a multi-decade car mechanic who prefers.....manual transmissions for their......dependability. There's no basis in reality for saying a manual has a 90k mile life expectancy.