Cautionary Tale.

[schooliefiend]

Back at the end of last year I purchased a school bus from some guys in Chattanooga. I was told the bus only had around 15,000 miles on it and I was skeptical, but I was assured that was what the odometer said. I guess I'm a bit too trusting in odometers as I've found it rare to hear about odometer fraud these days. Before I drove it home, I took it in to an International dealership to be checked out and they indicated there was no way the bus has only 15,000 miles on it.

I was a bit skeptical of what I was being told because the bus is in really good condition and my trust of mechanics is low. I had some work done and drove it 2300 miles home. Interestingly enough, 2 hours into the drive home the speedometer, tach, and odometer all three stopped working and didn't work for the next two days. Now that I had a 2x4 upside my head, I knew something wasn't quite right. Once I got home, I took it into my local International dealership and after I explained the situation they pulled the mileage from the ECM in the engine. 256,000 miles. Why the other International dealership didn't mention doing that I don't know.

I flew half way across the country because I thought was getting a good deal and certainly wouldn't have done so with a bus with 256,000 miles on it. Thought I'd share this tale in hopes others wouldn't get bit. If you bought buses from these guys (they had 5 of them) take caution and get the bus thoroughly checked out. I'm not sure I can use this bus now has I'm being told the engine has a lot of blow-by and is in need of an engine rebuild. Not cool.

 

[ewo1]

That sucks....

 

[nikitis]

I'll be taking my Nexiq 2 with me on future bus purposes to read the ECM. But ECM's aren't always accurate either. Below is why.

I will say though My VPM was replaced which contains the mileage value. International didn't know my true mileage because my VPM died and the information on it died with it. I had 148k on the Odometer, but they assume based on the condition of the engine etc it was likely around that but not sure exactly where it would land but couldn't really tell so they just entered a value of 200k on the ECM. My Odometer works but no one really knows how long the VPM was dead before I purchased it. The church guys who sold it to me said the issue only stopped counting about 2000 miles ago so that would put my bus at 150k miles, but the ECM says 200,000 because that was the generic value International put into the VPM cause they didn't know for sure either. They said 200,000 was conservative but it's probably slightly less and could be in the 150k range. Even at 200k, this engine still has a lot of life in it, and could go to 300k-500k. It will take me 10 years or more to put 100k on it as little as I drive it so I was fine with it. The engine itself has given me no problems so far and seems to be in good condition.

 

[schooliefiend]

I'll be taking my Nexiq 2 with me on future bus purposes to read the ECM. But ECM's aren't always accurate either. Below is why.

I will say though My VPM was replaced which contains the mileage value. International didn't know my true mileage because my VPM died and the information on it died with it. I had 148k on the Odometer, but they assume based on the condition of the engine etc it was likely around that but not sure exactly where it would land but couldn't really tell so they just entered a value of 200k on the ECM. My Odometer works but no one really knows how long the VPM was dead before I purchased it. The church guys who sold it to me said the issue only stopped counting about 2000 miles ago so that would put my bus at 150k miles, but the ECM says 200,000 because that was the generic value International put into the VPM cause they didn't know for sure either. They said 200,000 was conservative but it's probably slightly less and could be in the 150k range. Even at 200k, this engine still has a lot of life in it, and could go to 300k-500k. It will take me 10 years or more to put 100k on it as little as I drive it so I was fine with it. The engine itself has given me no problems so far and seems to be in good condition.

How much does that Nexiq 2 run?

 

[nikitis]

How much does that Nexiq 2 run?

Typically they are $220 on ebay for the official one, however there's one on there now for $179. Occasionally you see one sold at that price.

Nexiq 2 USB

 

[DJTM]

Sorry to hear that. I recently scanned my vehicle and the odo is off by 10k (it wasn't working when I got it but has since started working again after soldering the cluster panel).

 

[nikitis]

Sorry to hear that. I recently scanned my vehicle and the odo is off by 10k (it wasn't working when I got it but has since started working again after soldering the cluster panel).

MOST of the time the ECM will be the accurate mileage, being 10k off is pretty decent with these. I was pointing out in my case that they had to embellish my mileage on the ECM because I had a VPM computer die which stored it, and it was not truly known, but if I go by the previous owner he said he only drove it about 8k miles so I think my true mileage is 156k, but the ODO says 148k, but my ECM (really VPM) stated 200,000 which the dealer entered in cause they didn't know and had to be safe legally.

 

[DJTM]

MOST of the time the ECM will be the accurate mileage, being 10k off is pretty decent with these. I was pointing out in my case that they had to embellish my mileage on the ECM because I had a VPM computer die which stored it, and it was not truly known, but if I go by the previous owner he said he only drove it about 8k miles so I think my true mileage is 156k, but the ODO says 148k, but my ECM (really VPM) stated 200,000 which the dealer entered in cause they didn't know and had to be safe legally.

Ahhh ok...I was thinking I should check to see if my VPM still works, but then I read your VPM saga post and have decided to leave that thing alone unless it needs bothering!!

 

[nikitis]

You would know your VPM is dead with a Check Engine light. The vehicle will run but run in default engine mode so it would have low power.

 

[Carrier6]

Back at the end of last year I purchased a school bus from some guys in Chattanooga. I was told the bus only had around 15,000 miles on it and I was skeptical, but I was assured that was what the odometer said. I guess I'm a bit too trusting in odometers as I've found it rare to hear about odometer fraud these days. Before I drove it home, I took it in to an International dealership to be checked out and they indicated there was no way the bus has only 15,000 miles on it.

I was a bit skeptical of what I was being told because the bus is in really good condition and my trust of mechanics is low. I had some work done and drove it 2300 miles home. Interestingly enough, 2 hours into the drive home the speedometer, tach, and odometer all three stopped working and didn't work for the next two days. Now that I had a 2x4 upside my head, I knew something wasn't quite right. Once I got home, I took it into my local International dealership and after I explained the situation they pulled the mileage from the ECM in the engine. 256,000 miles. Why the other International dealership didn't mention doing that I don't know.

I flew half way across the country because I thought was getting a good deal and certainly wouldn't have done so with a bus with 256,000 miles on it. Thought I'd share this tale in hopes others wouldn't get bit. If you bought buses from these guys (they had 5 of them) take caution and get the bus thoroughly checked out. I'm not sure I can use this bus now has I'm being told the engine has a lot of blow-by and is in need of an engine rebuild. Not cool.

I think I would be calling the Tennessee DMV. See if they want to pursue a tampering with the odometer charge. It is a felony to tamper with the odometer. I think you can also file it from your home state since it a federal crime. Do a quick Google search to find out. At least you might be able to get all your money back. You should probably post the sellers info here so nobody else gets stung from these hacks.
Good luck.

 

[nikitis]

Odometer's being off on 90's vehicles is very common. Because of electrical failures. It's difficult to prove fraud. We're finding out that many of these 20-30 year old buses are off. In a car, they are far less prone to failure so they will take those more seriously if it's tampered with.

 

[Jolly Roger bus 223]

not that easy?
i bought a shortie for my wife and seller said 150,000 and when i got it home and plugged it in the computer read 350,000 .
contacted the seller and they said after they had a hitch welded on they had to replace the ECM with a used one.
i can understand that but the seller had already cut the hitch off cause he didnt like it?
the ECM if you have the code reader capable of it will tell you mileage some will not.
full discolure is not required if you are not buying from a dealership or original owner.
i have been through the entire engine and agree it is a 150,000 mile engine.
that sucked in a van body but anyway. it can and does happen. not saying its correct and not saying its right but as a buyer of a used vehicle its up to you to verify what you are buying.
i took the seller at face value and it ran good so i paid his price and drove it 200 miles home and did not even look at the title .
it was signed and i got a bill of sale from him.
my fault the title was signed and notarized but not buy him the bill of sale was from him and notarized from his wife at the time i just assumed they were the same? nope?
the title for the bus was his previous wife and the notary for the bill of sell was his new wife.
o;d wife couldnt be found when i went to title it seller would not respond so i magically appeared on his doorstep with no response from the name on the title so i went rebuilt salvage title with no help from the 2 previous owners.
oh yeah you could still see the outlines of the ADA handi service in raleigh NC and with VIN they had no issue with who it was sold to and why and verified mileage when sold.
they were switching to fibreglass shuttle bus mess/stuff sorry.

 

[Carrier6]

Odometer's being off on 90's vehicles is very common. Because of electrical failures. It's difficult to prove fraud. We're finding out that many of these 20-30 year old buses are off. In a car, they are far less prone to failure so they will take those more seriously if it's tampered with.

If the seller signed the title stating it was 15000 original miles. That is a felony, it even says that on most titles. I guess it depends on what state you are in if they will pursue it. Seems to me it would be worth a few phone calls or even a threat to the seller for a refund .

 

[Carrier6]

I can see if it's off 10 or 20K but 240,000 miles? That seems like an easy case of fraud to me.

 

[nikitis]

I can see if it's off 10 or 20K but 240,000 miles? That seems like an easy case of fraud to me.

Would normally agree, but it's a bus. There are fleet managers who would never take time to repair such a thing, drive them their whole school bus career, then sell the bus as is in auction. Modern Odometers are electrical and not mechanical.

The mechanical ones are the ones that are off and break. I'm noticing on most buses this to be the case from my own observation. Quite a number of them are off 10-50k miles. A few way more miles than that.

When Odometers went to digital displays that show the direct ECU value things Odometers of that sort just work. If that is off then it's likely fraud as the direct reads has no mechanical properties to really fail as easily. The 90's ones were tickers that fail over time, separate from the ECU.

**** I even have an ECU that stores mileage on mine and it's off on the ECU done by International themselves. Should they be arrested for fraud? Could they be? Likely not. They will just claim a repair, mileage unknown. Set conservatively based on condition of engine.

 

[Carrier6]

Would normally agree, but it's a bus. There are fleet managers who would never take time to repair such a thing, drive them their whole school bus career, then sell the bus as is in auction. Modern Odometers are electrical and not mechanical.

The mechanical ones are the ones that are off and break. I'm noticing on most buses this to be the case from my own observation. Quite a number of them are off 10-50k miles. A few way more miles than that.

When Odometers went to digital displays that show the direct ECU value things Odometers of that sort just work. If that is off then it's likely fraud as the direct reads has no mechanical properties to really fail as easily. The 90's ones were tickers that fail over time, separate from the ECU.

**** I even have an ECU that stores mileage on mine and it's off on the ECU done by International themselves. Should they be arrested for fraud? Could they be? Likely not. They will just claim a repair, mileage unknown. Set conservatively based on condition of engine.

I agree with you on all of that.i guess my issue would be that it was a private sale, not an auction. OP ask about it, and they confirmed it was correct and signed the title for sale stating that correct mileage. That's when the seller screwed up. Sounds like he just wanted the sale. He should have stated on the bill of sale that the actual milage is unknown. I would think the OP would have a pretty good chance of getting his money back or a portion of it back from the seller.

Just my .02

 

[PorchDog]

In Tennessee, the Odometer Disclosure Statement (VT-4) is required for the sale, trade-in, or exchange of most used vehicles with a model year of 2011 or newer. This form verifies the odometer reading and certifies its accuracy, or provides a reason for any discrepancies. Failure to complete the form or provide false information can result in fines and/or imprisonment.

Key Points:

• Who needs it?
  Sellers (transferors) and buyers (transferees) of used vehicles (model year 2011 or newer) must complete the form.
  
  
• What information is required?
  The form requires the current odometer reading, make, model, year, VIN, and the signatures of both the seller and buyer.
  
  
• What if the mileage is not actual?
  If the odometer reading is not the actual mileage, a "Not Actual Mileage" box must be checked, and a separate Odometer Discrepancy Statement (Form F1310801) must also be completed.
  
  
• Penalties for falsification.
  Providing a false statement can lead to fines and/or imprisonment.
  
  
• Exceptions.
  Certain vehicles are exempt, including those with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 16,000 lbs, non-self-propelled vehicles, and vehicles that are model year 2010 or older.

 

[PorchDog]

• Exceptions.
  Certain vehicles are exempt, including those with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 16,000 lbs, non-self-propelled vehicles, and vehicles that are model year 2010 or older.

 

[Ronnie-SKO]

The instrament cluster fails and gets replaced with a new one, so the mileage on the odometer starts at 0 again with the new cluster. No fraud intended. problem is that the law does not allow the new cluster to have it's mileage changed to match the vehicle computer, as that would be considered tampering with it. Strange but the way it has been explained to me.

It is pretty common for bus mileage to be off for this reason.

 

[Carrier6]

In Oregon, when my cluster went out on my 2004 GMC 5500 I had to send it into the dealership and have them reprogram it to match the one that came out.