COVID-19 | Effects on Skoolies - No Politics please.

[Booyah45828]

I heard a quote somewhere, paraphrasing: "your handgun exists to get you back to the rifle you never should have left behind". If you are anticipating violence you'd best try and increase the engagement distance as much as possible. If you are in a position where you are reacting real time to violence, I'd say think hard about retreat first.

I'd agree with that about hand guns in a war scenario. But I don't think I'd be proactively targeting others from a distance as threats in an apocalyptic scenario. If I would have to do so, it'd likely be close range where I can verify them as a threat before action. Best course for when SHTF would be to gather what and who is valuable, and then distance yourself from everything else. Once distanced, maintain that distance, with force if you have to. I feel I can do that with what I have.

What I don't foresee, is me having to eliminate thousands of targets at a couple hundred yards that would require me to have thousands of rounds of rifle ammo. And I surely wouldn't be using any firearm to hunt for food. Doing so would be a huge alert to anybody that is a hostile within a few miles. I've read articles on how some predators are attracted to gun shots, almost like it's a dinner bell. I think rival "tribes" would act the same during an apocalypse.

I have a few friends who are musicians and they're hurtin right now. Prob is they don't save much of the money when its flowing in.

That's true, I have friends who are as well. It seems to be a cash business similar to tips in the service industry, so most typically don't pay an accurate amount in taxes and unemployment. So now they're especially hurting because any relief they might get won't be proportionate or enough. I think society as a whole spends too much and doesn't save enough, a large number of people are finding that out right now.

bro- spreading it out over a longer time is the point of flattening the curve. Gives the medical system more time. That's the exact point of it. Look we're hurtin for income as bad as anyone. Think of it as "wartime". Folks all had to make sacrifices in the BIG ones. Now the enemy is something we're not as familiar with. This is going to take cooperation and coordination to make it better, man. This is all where personal responsibility, patriotism, and civic duty REALLY matter the most.

I understand and agree with that. But nobody can give an accurate account as to how long we're spreading it out for. The current plan for Ohio is the first part of May. My thought is that it's going to be much longer then that. If we fully open back up in May, the virus will still be around and spreading, and that will un-flatten the curve. I read an article from Prof. Alexander Kekule who believes we need to infect the young and healthy in order to have any chance at this virus. He also believes that being under lockdown until a vaccine is developed would lead to economic ruin. IDK, I'm feeling inclined to agree with him. At this point, unless we go into total lockdown, I don't see how places like NYC have a chance. It's just too widespread.

None of the "3rd" parties will ever gain traction till common folks stop legitimizing the broken two party system and refuse to accept the corporate offerings. Indoctrination is very hard to break away from. Individuals have to decide to change things. Can't wait for the herd to do it.

AGREED. But too many have the herd mentality and won't be pulled from it's "protection".

Self defense definitely involves getting out of harms way as soon as you can.My lifted shorty sure feels like it would be a good emergency bugout vehicle. Could drive through flooded roads if needed, its heavy and tough. Decent fuel mileage at 10+.

I'm thinking my bus is the bug out vehicle as well. I could essentially live out of it and it definitely has the biggest fuel tank of any of my vehicles. I just think it will be hard for me to leave the "castle", and by the time I decide to, it will likely be too late.

 

[kazetsukai]

I'd agree with that about hand guns in a war scenario. But I don't think I'd be proactively targeting others from a distance as threats in an apocalyptic scenario.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you anticipate violence, as in you know of a specific threat that is incoming but not immediate, leave the area. If you anticipate violence and you absolutely must engage, engage at distance. The rule is to avoid, avoid avoid.


The scenarios you're thinking of where you are _reacting_ to violence with no warning, again you have to assess whether you actively getting involved is going to solve anything, or just cause more bullets to fly. Priority number one is to escape the situation with actively stopping the situation being a distant second. If you were to engage someone in an area with lots of people, even if you mind your target and whats behind it, your target might not reciprocate.

What I don't foresee, is me having to eliminate thousands of targets at a couple hundred yards that would require me to have thousands of rounds of rifle ammo.

And neither do I. I am merely commenting that given the choice between engaging at handgun distance and rifle distance, you want to engage at rifle distances.

And I surely wouldn't be using any firearm to hunt for food. Doing so would be a huge alert to anybody that is a hostile within a few miles.

By the time you're thinking of hunting for anything all local game is likely long gone. Pack your freezer now if you anticipate this.

I've read articles on how some predators are attracted to gun shots, almost like it's a dinner bell. I think rival "tribes" would act the same during an apocalypse.

This is actually hugely advantageous if you think about it. You're essentially talking about direct control over hostiles by "kiting" (as in pulling a kite) them. If you know where a hostile group is and know the terrain well, you can draw them out in a direction of your choosing as either a distraction, or if you have a couple friends, as a way of dividing up the group for an ambush.


Again, kind of silly in the current context. Not sure how idiotic you'd have to be in order to book it in the direction of gunfire without a clue as to who it might be.

 

[sutphinins]

I'm beginning to think this stay at home-go out only as necessary should be the norm until there's a vaccine. I keep seeing things about people getting reinfected.

The only way to keep from spiking new cases and overloading the already over-burdened hospital system here in the states is to stay the **** home.

Also gloves are probably a bad idea when going to the store or handling things. They are meant to be used and discarded upon contact with something. So unless you are changing gloves whenever you take your hands off the cart, putting a fresh one on to grab something, remove that one to put a fresh one on to touch the cart and repeat then it's just another way to spread the virus.

 

[gs1949]

I have just read a very interesting article, which I strongly recommend to anyone with the slightest interest in virology, which I think at a time like this is probably most people.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...wn-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1/

 

[gs1949]

Also gloves are probably a bad idea when going to the store or handling things. They are meant to be used and discarded upon contact with something. So unless you are changing gloves whenever you take your hands off the cart, putting a fresh one on to grab something, remove that one to put a fresh one on to touch the cart and repeat then it's just another way to spread the virus.

I have not been able to find any suitable gloves, so I am disinfecting my hands with rubbing alcohol whenever I have to go shopping. If I had gloves I would still use the alcohol for extra security, and to extend the useful time of the gloves.

 

[kazetsukai]

I'm beginning to think this stay at home-go out only as necessary should be the norm until there's a vaccine. I keep seeing things about people getting reinfected.

Which even expedited would be a year out at least given how long this has taken for other viruses.


What you are talking about is full-blown SHTF.



The current situation isn't sustainable, that is just fact. For you to be able to stay home, lots of other people cannot. What if there were no grocery employees at the counter or stocking the shelves? No nurses or doctors going into the hospitals? No truck drivers on the road? No postal or mail service workers delivering mail? No farmers making food? No law enforcement patrolling the streets? What about the people maintaining the network equipment and systems needed to keep up this conversation? Or workers at the power plant?


Hard choices ahead folks.

 

[gs1949]

Hard choices ahead folks.

That is an understatement!

 

[banman]

I'm beginning to think this stay at home-go out only as necessary should be the norm until there's a vaccine. I keep seeing things about people getting reinfected.

The only way to keep from spiking new cases and overloading the already over-burdened hospital system here in the states is to stay the **** home.

Also gloves are probably a bad idea when going to the store or handling things. They are meant to be used and discarded upon contact with something. So unless you are changing gloves whenever you take your hands off the cart, putting a fresh one on to grab something, remove that one to put a fresh one on to touch the cart and repeat then it's just another way to spread the virus.

Thank you for bringing this thread back to something useful...

Dragging your gloves all over town touching one store door and then another is simply a great way to gather and spread germs everywhere -- your gloves are now the germ vector...

Far better to more frequently wash your hands!

 

[sutphinins]

Which even expedited would be a year out at least given how long this has taken for other viruses.


What you are talking about is full-blown SHTF.



The current situation isn't sustainable, that is just fact. For you to be able to stay home, lots of other people cannot. What if there were no grocery employees at the counter or stocking the shelves? No nurses or doctors going into the hospitals? No truck drivers on the road? No postal or mail service workers delivering mail? No farmers making food? No law enforcement patrolling the streets? What about the people maintaining the network equipment and systems needed to keep up this conversation? Or workers at the power plant?


Hard choices ahead folks.

We should have Universal Basic Income. Our tax dollars are not working for us, it's working for the people that already have most of our money in the first place.


We should have the Post Office. We should have Universal Health Insurance. We should have more unions fighting for worker's to be paid a living wage and protected.


Those people you mentioned should be able to go to work and not be worried about whether or not they will have protection. The people that can work from home should. The people that are going out like nothing is happening need to be kneecapped.


The hardest choice we have ahead is to choose that people are more important than business. Once we relearn that we can make sure everyone can get what they need.


The Star Trek universe went through the Mad Max period to get where they were. I'd personally like to avoid the Max Max timeline but we may not be able to.


I really just want people to take this seriously. I could die from this. My mom could die from this because I'm the one that has to go out to get groceries. My brother, who is developmentally disabled, could die from this, but more likely would be that our mom and myself dies from this and he's left alone.

 

[kazetsukai]

Those people you mentioned should be able to go to work and not be worried about whether or not they will have protection. The people that can work from home should.

You don't seem to get it, not one bit. And I'm not talking about your political views, I'm talking basic realities at play here.

I'm a programmer, I "can" work from home, but in a situation like this, eventually my labors value will plummet to zero. I am fully aware that in this situation, I'm dead weight. My labor is not valuable when it does not create value for others and in this climate, it doesn't. I continue to be hired only because the people running the business think that there's a good chance things will return to normal. The most valuable job on the planet both at this moment and arguably prior to this epidemic are the people making deliveries. Big rigs and the guys making to-door deliveries.

Your view that these people should just "go to work" and get sick so you can stay home, but its okay because we'll give them free healthcare reduces those people to a servant/worker class. All while people like me produce nothing of value to them. NOTHING.

The hardest choice we have ahead is to choose that people are more important than business. Once we relearn that we can make sure everyone can get what they need.

Business is everything you ever take for granted. Its why we can have this conversation, why food is on your table. There isn't a society without business. Business exists for the sake of the people- it is the mechanism by which we all cooperate and enrich our lives so that our children might have it a little better. The production of wealth isn't a machine making copies of a dollar bill in a basement somewhere, the production of wealth is some guy out there making bread, another guy moving hundreds of pounds of product to the people that need it the most, and the people tracking demand and organizing distribution to match it.

The Star Trek universe went through the Mad Max period to get where they were. I'd personally like to avoid the Max Max timeline but we may not be able to.

"The Star Trek universe" doesn't actually exist, its fiction. Things rarely go according to plan, we are not on a rail taking us directly to a futuristic, enlightened society. There is nuance in the world, far more complicated than you make it out to be, and the solution isn't free tickets for product that require labor to produce.

You wanna starve? I don't. Hand out free money all you want, if there's no meat at the counter you aren't going to eat.

 

[kazetsukai]

I just want to clarify that while I'm on the libertarian right, I'm not going to discourage you from believing in or supporting UBI. The challenge you have to overcome with UBI is, how do you hand out money that maintains its value (the ability to exchange it for goods and services) when the people receiving it aren't required to produce market-set value (labor or goods) worth that currency in exchange.

 

[sutphinins]

You don't seem to get it, not one bit. And I'm not talking about your political views, I'm talking basic realities at play here.

I'm a programmer, I "can" work from home, but in a situation like this, eventually my labors value will plummet to zero. I am fully aware that in this situation, I'm dead weight. My labor is not valuable when it does not create value for others and in this climate, it doesn't. I continue to be hired only because the people running the business think that there's a good chance things will return to normal. The most valuable job on the planet both at this moment and arguably prior to this epidemic are the people making deliveries. Big rigs and the guys making to-door deliveries.

Your view that these people should just "go to work" and get sick so you can stay home, but its okay because we'll give them free healthcare reduces those people to a servant/worker class. All while people like me produce nothing of value to them. NOTHING.

Business is everything you ever take for granted. Its why we can have this conversation, why food is on your table. There isn't a society without business. Business exists for the sake of the people- it is the mechanism by which we all cooperate and enrich our lives so that our children might have it a little better. The production of wealth isn't a machine making copies of a dollar bill in a basement somewhere, the production of wealth is some guy out there making bread, another guy moving hundreds of pounds of product to the people that need it the most, and the people tracking demand and organizing distribution to match it.

"The Star Trek universe" doesn't actually exist, its fiction. Things rarely go according to plan, we are not on a rail taking us directly to a futuristic, enlightened society. There is nuance in the world, far more complicated than you make it out to be, and the solution isn't free tickets for product that require labor to produce.

You wanna starve? I don't. Hand out free money all you want, if there's no meat at the counter you aren't going to eat.

I just want to clarify that while I'm on the libertarian right, I'm not going to discourage you from believing in or supporting UBI. The challenge you have to overcome with UBI is, how do you hand out money that maintains its value (the ability to exchange it for goods and services) when the people receiving it aren't required to produce market-set value (labor or goods) worth that currency in exchange.

Thanks for your clarification, I've been struggling trying to respond without things getting more political.

My thought was a universal income would cause a shift in thinking from you have to work to be valuable, which is what I think you have the mindset of, to I need to work but I'm valuable regardless. What I mean is, a person has value regardless of what they do for "work". You are not valuable because you can code, you are valuable because you're a person, who hopefully, followed a path that interested them and now you can provide something more.

If more people can say I deserve more for my labor and I won't accept less, then businesses have to shift back to existing for people, not for the almighty dollar/yen/euro whatever. Like that cartoon where two people are looking at a number on the ground from different angles, you see 6, I see 9. We're both right, and we're both wrong.

I didn't say people should go to work, I just said if you can work from home you should, to limit the contact the people that HAVE to work outside of home have with others. The universal income and universal healthcare would allow more people to stay at home if they're sick, which would help reduce the total # of cases.

For example, I'd like Amazon to treat the warehouse workers like people and not replaceable cogs. That's not a bad thing is it?

 

[banman]

Thanks for your clarification, I've been struggling trying to respond without things getting more political.

My thought was a universal income would cause a shift in thinking from you have to work to be valuable, which is what I think you have the mindset of, to I need to work but I'm valuable regardless. What I mean is, a person has value regardless of what they do for "work". You are not valuable because you can code, you are valuable because you're a person, who hopefully, followed a path that interested them and now you can provide something more.

If more people can say I deserve more for my labor and I won't accept less, then businesses have to shift back to existing for people, not for the almighty dollar/yen/euro whatever. Like that cartoon where two people are looking at a number on the ground from different angles, you see 6, I see 9. We're both right, and we're both wrong.

I didn't say people should go to work, I just said if you can work from home you should, to limit the contact the people that HAVE to work outside of home have with others. The universal income and universal healthcare would allow more people to stay at home if they're sick, which would help reduce the total # of cases.

For example, I'd like Amazon to treat the warehouse workers like people and not replaceable cogs. That's not a bad thing is it?

Some of us don't think that's a bad thing. :wink1:

 

[EastCoastCB]

I'm beginning to think this stay at home-go out only as necessary should be the norm until there's a vaccine. I keep seeing things about people getting reinfected.

The only way to keep from spiking new cases and overloading the already over-burdened hospital system here in the states is to stay the **** home.

Also gloves are probably a bad idea when going to the store or handling things. They are meant to be used and discarded upon contact with something. So unless you are changing gloves whenever you take your hands off the cart, putting a fresh one on to grab something, remove that one to put a fresh one on to touch the cart and repeat then it's just another way to spread the virus.

I think gloves and mask are a good plan in stores. Knowing how to properly wear and remove them are important, too.
I've went into one store in three weeks. I went in to pick up our pet food order at tractor supply. I wore my stuff in, then when I'd thrown the bags in the bed of the truck I took them off carefully and placed in a box in the bed. I then used hand sanitizer as an extra level of assurance.
After a couple weeks in that box I'd imaging they're safe to wear again, right?

 

[kazetsukai]

Thanks for your clarification, I've been struggling trying to respond without things getting more political.

I feel I was a little too harsh because like you, I care for the people working. I've heard of people suffering permanent lung damage and dying from this. I am agonizing over my own powerlessness to help in some way and afraid of losing my job.

My thought was a universal income would cause a shift in thinking from you have to work to be valuable, which is what I think you have the mindset of, to I need to work but I'm valuable regardless. What I mean is, a person has value regardless of what they do for "work".

This is a foray not into politics, but into philosophy. What is "value" in this line of reasoning? It sounds nice, and I wouldn't say anyone is completely without value without really compelling factors like if they are murderers/rapists/etc.

We'd have to agree on what "value" is in that context to explore that. Material or immaterial desirability perhaps? But that doesn't seem to fit well to human beings.

If more people can say I deserve more for my labor and I won't accept less, then businesses have to shift back to existing for people, not for the almighty dollar/yen/euro whatever.

A business by default has stakeholders of varying degrees. Owners/shareholders, employees. In order to maintain the business, the dollar has to be pursued. Relentlessly. Its hard not to. Without it, the employee can't pay for food or board. The shareholders will have no reason to invest or take risks. There's a delicate balance where the compensation of the worker is in competition with the ownership/shareholders for the businesses' resources. If you allocate too much to the business and not enough to the workers, you get the kinds of concerns you've raised. If you allocate too much to the employees, the business cannot grow and a business that cannot grow will stagnate and lose to competition.

My mom works for an electrician's office. He's paying all of his employees to stay home during this pandemic. If he doesn't get assistance from the government in a few short weeks this will bankrupt him and the business will go under. Nobody will get paid. For the businesses that can't get aid, what do they do? I don't have an answer.

Like that cartoon where two people are looking at a number on the ground from different angles, you see 6, I see 9.

Another foray into philosophy- What matters more: What you see (6), I see (9) or what the person that wrote the number intended?

I didn't say people should go to work, I just said if you can work from home you should, to limit the contact the people that HAVE to work outside of home have with others. The universal income and universal healthcare would allow more people to stay at home if they're sick, which would help reduce the total # of cases.

Lets say UBI and UHC would work during normal circumstances. With a lot of businesses shut down, much of the value being added to the economy for people to consume (food, fuel, etc) has been redirected or, isn't being produced as much as it was prior. Well, supply/demand dictates that the scarcity of a good will increase its value. If you increase the supply of money, but decrease the supply of food, food will be worth more and money worth less. For a short period of time during this pandemic, this might be okay. But if we don't at minimum return to production? If food or other goods slow down even further? That's the worry.

For example, I'd like Amazon to treat the warehouse workers like people and not replaceable cogs. That's not a bad thing is it?

I 100% agree and cracking down on abuse or neglect is something I can get behind. The challenge with coronavirus is we now have a potentially universally hazardous work environment. What on earth do we do about that?

Honestly, thank the FedEx/UPS/USPS guy the next chance you get. From a safe distance. We would be so screwed without them...

 

[EastCoastCB]

I have not been able to find any suitable gloves, so I am disinfecting my hands with rubbing alcohol whenever I have to go shopping. If I had gloves I would still use the alcohol for extra security, and to extend the useful time of the gloves.

I got a large box for $17 on the way from Ebay.

 

[EastCoastCB]

Thank you for bringing this thread back to something useful...

Dragging your gloves all over town touching one store door and then another is simply a great way to gather and spread germs everywhere -- your gloves are now the germ vector...

Far better to more frequently wash your hands!

The gloves are to protect YOU from what's on the surfaces. You take em off after you leave the store. If everyone did that there wouldn't be any contaminated surfaces to worry about.

 

[PNW_Steve]

Y'all ain't from Texas ... only 1500 rounds???


Oh, them are yer practice rounds!

This brings to mind when I went. full time in my first bus. Before I took down my reloading bench I loaded nearly every piece of brass that I owned to get me by until I could get it set back up.

I hit the road and managed to find a range to shoot at regularly while traveling. Then we headed for Canada. I stopped and left my guns with a friend in Michigan before crossing the border.

Now people in Canada are, to some extent, allowed to own guns and ammo albeit in a limited manner. I didn't think a thing about the ammo in my baggage bay.

My recommendation: Never try to cross an international border with 11,000 rounds of ammo.....

 

[sutphinins]

This brings to mind when I went. full time in my first bus. Before I took down my reloading bench I loaded nearly every piece of brass that I owned to get me by until I could get it set back up.

I hit the road and managed to find a range to shoot at regularly while traveling. Then we headed for Canada. I stopped and left my guns with a friend in Michigan before crossing the border.

Now people in Canada are, to some extent, allowed to own guns and ammo albeit in a limited manner. I didn't think a thing about the ammo in my baggage bay.

My recommendation: Never try to cross an international border with 11,000 rounds of ammo.....

Seeing these comments about guns got me thinking. I've never shot a hand gun. I've held them but that's all. I've only shot a rifle a few times for hunting, I want to say a 22 but I was kid so I don't know for sure.

 

[sutphinins]

I feel I was a little too harsh because like you, I care for the people working. I've heard of people suffering permanent lung damage and dying from this. I am agonizing over my own powerlessness to help in some way and afraid of losing my job.

This is a foray not into politics, but into philosophy. What is "value" in this line of reasoning? It sounds nice, and I wouldn't say anyone is completely without value without really compelling factors like if they are murderers/rapists/etc.

We'd have to agree on what "value" is in that context to explore that. Material or immaterial desirability perhaps? But that doesn't seem to fit well to human beings.

A business by default has stakeholders of varying degrees. Owners/shareholders, employees. In order to maintain the business, the dollar has to be pursued. Relentlessly. Its hard not to. Without it, the employee can't pay for food or board. The shareholders will have no reason to invest or take risks. There's a delicate balance where the compensation of the worker is in competition with the ownership/shareholders for the businesses' resources. If you allocate too much to the business and not enough to the workers, you get the kinds of concerns you've raised. If you allocate too much to the employees, the business cannot grow and a business that cannot grow will stagnate and lose to competition.

My mom works for an electrician's office. He's paying all of his employees to stay home during this pandemic. If he doesn't get assistance from the government in a few short weeks this will bankrupt him and the business will go under. Nobody will get paid. For the businesses that can't get aid, what do they do? I don't have an answer.

Another foray into philosophy- What matters more: What you see (6), I see (9) or what the person that wrote the number intended?

Lets say UBI and UHC would work during normal circumstances. With a lot of businesses shut down, much of the value being added to the economy for people to consume (food, fuel, etc) has been redirected or, isn't being produced as much as it was prior. Well, supply/demand dictates that the scarcity of a good will increase its value. If you increase the supply of money, but decrease the supply of food, food will be worth more and money worth less. For a short period of time during this pandemic, this might be okay. But if we don't at minimum return to production? If food or other goods slow down even further? That's the worry.

I 100% agree and cracking down on abuse or neglect is something I can get behind. The challenge with coronavirus is we now have a potentially universally hazardous work environment. What on earth do we do about that?

Honestly, thank the FedEx/UPS/USPS guy the next chance you get. From a safe distance. We would be so screwed without them...

I don't know. I think if we had more access to healthcare and less worry about paying bills everyone would be better off, that's why I mentioned the UBI before. I don't think there is a perfect answer, but I believe our current setup is wrong and we need to make drastic changes. Businesses should exist to expand/enrich/protect, not to squeeze people for everything like one of those tube rollers to make sure you get every last bit.


Maybe an Anarcho-Syndicalist Commune?