Diesel to Hybrid or Electric Conversions

[roach711]

Seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse.

I looked at your earlier posts and you say this bus will be more of a house than an RV and that you'll have another vehicle as your daily driver. So presumably the bus won't be run very often. The question I'd be asking myself isn't which alternative fuel to go with, but why do it at all? A full tank of dino diesel may last you a year or two assuming you can find a viable long term parking spot, preferably with water, electrical and sewage hookups.

That's the question you need to answer; where will you park the thing? You will be hassled if you just pull up and park somewhere. Solve the parking problem first or be prepared for a lot of grief.

Not trying to bust your chops here, but many people on this forum have had big problems with neighbors, home owner associations, police and zoning boards. If you don't have your ducks in a row your life will become much more interesting in a hurry.

 

[KeiroD]

Seems to me that you're putting the cart before the horse.

I looked at your earlier posts and you say this bus will be more of a house than an RV and that you'll have another vehicle as your daily driver. So presumably the bus won't be run very often. The question I'd be asking myself isn't which alternative fuel to go with, but why do it at all? A full tank of dino diesel may last you a year or two assuming you can find a viable long term parking spot, preferably with water, electrical and sewage hookups.

That's the question you need to answer; where will park the thing? You will be hassled if you just pull up and park somewhere. Solve the parking problem first or be prepared for a lot of grief.

Not trying to bust your chops here, but many people on this forum have had big problems with neighbors, home owner associations, police and zoning boards. If you don't have your ducks in a row your life will become much more interesting in a hurry.

First thing: I know you're not busting my chops, just concerned about my situation. I agree, it gets very interesting very fast. Fortunately, that's covered! I've considered those, that's on a separate document. Mostly so I don't clutter it all up with various data. I probably should've linked the locations document in the google docs... that's fixed, now.

Here's the location link document: https://docs.google.com/a/heimkoma....MGDFYlfngYQvZzDECMdseHnbfIIQ/edit?usp=sharing

I myself will be living in it full-time once the conversion's completed. Maybe others will too, but at this time, I know I will be. And I will be traveling frequently to at least one convention a year once I've obtained a bus and completed its conversion.

In other words... I've got the traveler bug... prior to deciding to commit to a bus conversion project after October, I was moving at least once to twice a couple years though it's not uncommon for me to need to move soon after I've moved in! Sometimes more than that. But usually once or twice. And I'm tired of looking for apartments to rent out.

I decided to go with a bus rather than an RV.

 

[roach711]

Good to hear you've got that covered. I didn't want you to get all fired up about about what can be an awesome project just to find out that it's not welcome everywhere.

Once you have a place to land the sky's the limit. We're here to point out the potholes along the way, not rain on your parade.

 

[wunderhut]

I deliver oil and fuels for a living. Most of you are probably already running an 11% bio blend without knowing it. At least throughout the summer.

 

[KeiroD]

Good to hear you've got that covered. I didn't want you to get all fired up about about what can be an awesome project just to find out that it's not welcome everywhere.

Once you have a place to land the sky's the limit. We're here to point out the potholes along the way, not rain on your parade.

Definitely a good thing to do! Only problem is, land is not cheap... well, relatively speaking. Land here in Ohio goes for anywhere between $10k and above.

Of course, there's some deeper research that needs to be done prior to actually going anywhere. But at the moment, I've access to a fair amount of parking space that I can use to convert the bus. I just need to acquire tools and the ingredients to finish the conversion.

I deliver oil and fuels for a living. Most of you are probably already running an 11% bio blend without knowing it. At least throughout the summer.

Nice, an interesting fact I didn't know! Why is that?

 

[wunderhut]

Nice, an interesting fact I didn't know! Why is that?

It's cheaper, better for the environment, and subsidized.
Major bonus, it increases your fuels lubricity. Less engine wear!
I'd say probably 90% of farmers I deliver to, it's the only thing they use.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Ya...straight, filtered ATF runs just dandy. Great thing about diesels is that when (as Nat is looking forward to it) the Apocalypse does come...you will be able to burn darn near anything in your diesel. Heck...the original diesel engine was designed to run on coal dust.

Below is just one article on ATF...there are lots...

Automatic Transmission Fluid Fuel - Alternative Diesel Fuel - Diesel Power Magazine

One thing you have to keep in mind is that ALL fuels available commercially today are piss-poor compromises of technology, resources, politics and economics. It is resoundingly easy to improve greatly on what is available "at the pump". I used to run "Aviation Purple" in my formula race bike (145 octane). When that went away, we went to "Green"...about 130. From then on, we had to blend our own in order to keep the power levels we had become accustomed to.

Nowadays, try and find anything remotely like that at the pump. Maybe 87 octane Corn Oil Crap? Makes a huge difference in HP, performance & mpg. Same is true for "modern" diesel fuels.

Point is, a little minor blending can make a very big difference.
Example: It has almost become standard procedure these days to add lubricity to overpriced, low sulfur diesel fuel. Many tests have shown that the formulations in use today have potentially serious negative effects resulting from all the "compromises".

Adding ATF and/or small amounts of cheap 2-stroke oil have been proven to significantly improve both performance and engine longevity.

Definitely a subject worthy of study for anyone owning or operating a diesel engine these days. Also kinda fun to beat the system.

 

[KeiroD]

Ya...straight, filtered ATF runs just dandy. Great thing about diesels is that when (as Nat is looking forward to it) the Apocalypse does come...you will be able to burn darn near anything in your diesel. Heck...the original diesel engine was designed to run on coal dust.

Below is just one article on ATF...there are lots...

Automatic Transmission Fluid Fuel - Alternative Diesel Fuel - Diesel Power Magazine

One thing you have to keep in mind is that ALL fuels available commercially today are piss-poor compromises of technology, resources, politics and economics. It is resoundingly easy to improve greatly on what is available "at the pump". I used to run "Aviation Purple" in my formula race bike (145 octane). When that went away, we went to "Green"...about 130. From then on, we had to blend our own in order to keep the power levels we had become accustomed to.

Nowadays, try and find anything remotely like that at the pump. Maybe 87 octane Corn Oil Crap? Makes a huge difference in HP, performance & mpg. Same is true for "modern" diesel fuels.

Point is, a little minor blending can make a very big difference.
Example: It has almost become standard procedure these days to add lubricity to overpriced, low sulfur diesel fuel. Many tests have shown that the formulations in use today have potentially serious negative effects resulting from all the "compromises".

Adding ATF and/or small amounts of cheap 2-stroke oil have been proven to significantly improve both performance and engine longevity.

Definitely a subject worthy of study for anyone owning or operating a diesel engine these days. Also kinda fun to beat the system.

Tango, thanks for the article.

Your post here is going to give me a lot of things to think about. I have a feeling I will be picking brains here with regards to the blends you're talking about. Sounds like I would be better off making my own diesel.

Wait, does that apply to biodiesel sold commercially as well? Or... should I not worry overmuch about this, until I have the time to test it out and such and so forth?

Edit: I ask because you said ALL fuels commercially sold is full of compromises.

 

[Tango-SKO]

You can get by with off the shelf fuel. But if you want to improve it, it is relatively easy. More HP,mpg & less wear are fairly easy to come by using any number of blends including those above. Best bet is to read up and decide how deep you want to get into it.

Example: Propane fogging can cut your fuel costs quite a bit, but...you have to carry quite a bit and modify the intake. Everything has costs. The trick is to research what might work best for you, your goals and your situation, then go from there.

Personally, I just plan on adding a little 2-stroke oil.

 

[Crazy]

Buy a bus. Convert it. Convert to biodiesel.

Biodiesel doesn't require any conversion.

 

[Hank's P-O-S]

You could run the bus with biomass-gasification..... But then you need a dump trailer of wood!

I think Britain ran their city busses off wood during WWII.



On a separate note.... Corn oil blended fuels are NOT at all beneficial for the environment and defiantly not cheaper for the consumer.
If all the farmers who grew corn for fuel ran only that oil in their tractors there would be a net negative of corn oil !!?
You also get ripped off 5% in energy per gallon with 10% corn fuel. Reducing MPG's and causing damage to your fuel system!

If you haven't relised it I like corn blended fuels like I like C.A.R.B. (Emissions aren't every thing!)
Beg my pard.... But to me "ECO" means government-funded-corporate-cash-grab.

 

[jazty]

The lions buses normally cost $125,000.

The electric option cost $200,000 alone.

We got 12 new lions buses this year on our fleet. Only one electric.

Nat

Whoa.. This is the first I've heard of these buses. They appear to have some serious improvements over all other school buses I've seen! Composite exterior (no rusted panels!); replaceable skirt sections; corrosion proof battery box and stair well; and the electrical panel is well organized.

Lion Bus pictures

How are they holding up so far?

 

[Scooternj]

Whoa.. This is the first I've heard of these buses. They appear to have some serious improvements over all other school buses I've seen! Composite exterior (no rusted panels!); replaceable skirt sections; corrosion proof battery box and stair well; and the electrical panel is well organized.

Lion Bus pictures

How are they holding up so far?

Agreed. I want one...in an RE platform

 

[somewhereinusa]

From the eLion web page

Save up to $13,000 in fuel every year.
Save up to $3.000 in maintenance every year.
A return on investment of less than 6 years.

If they cost $200,000 extra it will take 12.5 year using those figures.

Save up to $13,000 in fuel every year.

This kind of advertising always cracks me up. $1.00 falls within that category. Even so, energy is NOT free, how much will it add to the electric bill of where ever it gets plugged into?

Will the batteries last those hypothetical 6 years? If not this goes out the door.

Save up to $3.000 in maintenance every year.

Even if they last 10 years those batteries are going to seriously dig into that figure.

When the school district is done with it then what? I can't imagine using it for a skoolie with those battery costs.

 

[roach711]

The 75 mile driving range alone would disqualify it for my uses.

 

[Tango-SKO]

Reminds me a bit of all the daydreaming about how all electric cars are going to clean up the planet. Do their proponents ever mention that the other end of that wall plug is most likely at a coal fired generation facility? And given the losses inherent in transmission, the lost energy alone would be staggering if we all made the change tomorrow and only double-down many times over the greenhouse gases those generators produce.

Ain't no free lunch where energy is concerned. And while I believe in and am all for enhanced efficiencies across the board, I really HATE the way the money players use absurd assumptions and numbers to promote and sell their fantasy schemes.

As a great man once said...
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Benjamin Disraeli

Anybody want to invest in my perpetual motion machine?

 

[KeiroD]

Someone requested access to the location document... I was e-mailed by Google about it but it's set to anyone that has the link can view it.

 

[nat_ster]

The lions buses are holding up great. We have 5 that are two years old with no issues so far.

The lions bus was built in one of the worst rust belts in Canada. We are now the western Canada dealer.

In our case there will be no added cost to our electricity bill for our one electric bus. This is due to it charging from our solar array that just grew to twice the size this year. We only got one electric bus due to that's all the extra kw we can spare from the solar that also runs the 12 bay shop.

The 75 mile range is no issue for us. The bus does it's morning run, comes back and plugs in all day till it heads out for the evening run. The massive battery will only be used to around 50% DOD.

What I'm interested in is how it will do in the cold. This will be it's first test in our severe cold climate. We being the dealer must see if they are worth selling.

For reference, we use our buses to 15 years old. So if it pays for it's self in 12 years using grid power at 16 cents a kw, it should do way better running off solar that was funded partially by government grants.

Even running off grid power, the last 3 years of it's life would be gravy.

Oil is at $41 a barrel, and gas just hit $1.25 a liter. That's $5.68 a gallon.
When oil hits over $100 a barrel again, gas will be over $10 a gallon for us.

A home made electric car is in my near future. I soon won't have a choice.

All good. My poor 87 Honda CRX is at 543,000km and needing a electric conversion anyway.

Nat

 

[Tango-SKO]

One of the most efficient hybrid concepts has been around since WWII. I remember a chap back in the '70's who posted plans for his version of such a hybrid with a lawnmower engine powered generator that drove the cars electric motor. It was all made from scrap parts and got 75 mpg. With today's much more efficient turbo diesels, generators and electric motors, you might well be able to double that and completely go around the issues of storing electricity and re-charging batteries...not to mention the lost cause of trying to send vast amounts of it everywhere through grossly inefficient transmission systems.

Pure solar charging for short run applications like Nat outlined are a fantastic idea for mission specific applications. But as for any truly practical, general purpose, over the road application, it will take a very different approach.

BTW...in case you weren't around in 1979...
Electric Car Conversion: The Amazing 75-MPG Hybrid Car - Green Transportation - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

 

[nat_ster]

I like the mother earth news.

Lots of great reading.

Also check out Biofuels: Journey to Forever - how to make your own clean-burning biofuel.

Nat