Headliner keep or remove?

[Timeline]

A 12" roof raise changes the equation a bit. I'm no expert, but it seems reasonable that even on a stock bus, the window area is more likely to be the weakest point as opposed to the arched ceiling. In my bus, there are 2x as many arched roof ribs as window supports. By adding 12" to that window area, I think you're further cementing that as the weakest point. Since you're already going to significantly alter the original structure, does the headliner really matter any more? Or is it now just a few hundred pounds of unnecessary weight, 12" higher than it used to be?

Thank you Tejon


Plan on adding any needed supports to just this side of overkill.



:Thanx:

 

[Tejon7]

Plan on adding any needed supports to just this side of overkill.

Haha, I like the sound of that! But are you sure you don't want to cross onto the other side of overkill? The best buses always do :biggrin:

 

[HamSkoolie]

We have the perf headliner as well. I've got half of ours dropped now. Had to cut off a stripped screw today and man am I glad it's not rivets. Especially when pulling those last couple of fastners....LOL


We're considering whether we should just keep the glass insulation and put it down in "caverns" at the bottoms of the walls since we've been told not to try spray foaming in there.


I'm beginning to wonder if I really want to put all that weight back up there or just go with something lighter that's still pretty thin.

 

[Timeline]

Thanks all!


Another brain-sprinkle (not storm) :biggrin:


I could leave the headliner add (steel?) furring strips the length of the bus @ 16". Next cut out the headliner between the furring.


Saves me 1400 rivet removals, gains about 2" clearance, lets me spray foam directly to the skin, saves some of the structure, sheer, rigidity.



Thoughts please!


THANKS!
John

 

[musigenesis]

Whatever additional structural rigidity you're getting out of the headliner, you're only getting that if the material is continuous and unbroken. Even if you simply cut the material longitudinally every 16" (as opposed to removing all of the material between the furring strips) you would lose all of the rigidity it provides.

 

[Timeline]

Whatever additional structural rigidity you're getting out of the headliner, you're only getting that if the material is continuous and unbroken. Even if you simply cut the material longitudinally every 16" (as opposed to removing all of the material between the furring strips) you would lose all of the rigidity it provides.

Thank you Musigenesis


You are probably right, but will it lead to problems ahead?



From the outside the skin is riveted @ 6" across the top on every rib. Plan on doing a lot of dirt roads and don't want to rattle to roof panels loose.



Can't find any cases of it being a problem, but google is not my friend sometimes.





THANKS!
John

 

[musigenesis]

I don't think you're going to rattle your roof panels loose no matter what you do with the headliner. Solid rivets pretty much can't rattle loose, as they're cylinders of metal deformed on both ends. The only "structural" concern you might have is whether the roof panels will keep the ribs properly spaced in the event of a rollover (a pretty rare event), or whether the stresses involved in such an accident will tear the rivets through the sheet metal and allow the ribs to deform.

 

[HamSkoolie]

While screws are much easier than rivets for demo, rivets aren't all that horrid if you're getting rid of the headliner. No they're not as easy as screws but with an air hammer and compressor (not a pancake but one with a tank...about $150 at Harbor Freight) they can be cut or punched out fairly easily with a little practice.
And as a bonus you'll build up those biceps. LOL
That spray foam with the entire liner removed will provide environmental seal, stop condensation, reduce rattling, and insulate.
Search YouTube. There are a couple of vids out there where they're cutting rivets off with air hammers rather than drilling them.

 

[mymincave]

We Kept It

We removed one of the side panels to check for moisture/mold and it was sry as a bone. Thats in the PNW. If your bus is from a heavily winter salted environment, I’d do a deeper check…

 

[robertkuntz]

Keep it!

My Bluebird has a metal headliner with 1 3/4 inches of fiberglass insulation behind. What about leaving it in place and adding 3" of spray foam on top?

I've got the same thing and I bought my bus with a minimal older complete conversion. When I say minimal, all of the amenities of home, small kitchen, bath, full electric, etc, but no insulation on the floor (peal and stick carpet on original floor) and original roof ceiling panels and insulation.

I am currently here at the Awesome Possum DIY ranch in Texas where it was 103 today. Granted I ditched the old roof top AC and installed a 9000btu minisplit, the roof is cool to the touch - even with the old AC.

I don't know why people remove the panels. They are part of the structural integrity. I did some research on this and by removing the panels, you add to the chance of a more disastrous outcome to a collision or wreck...by way of weakening a system that is part of the designed safety perimeters for protecting the passengers.

I've lived with the metal ceiling for over a year now. I have been slowly remodeling my bus, and in the near future I am going to have a wood ceiling to go along with my wood floors (mounted to original ceiling) I don't feel the need to add more insulation. Even with the little insulation I have in this bus, it stays cool, and even at these temperatures.

One thing that I did learn about sub-zero temps this last winter is...the floor definitely has to be insulated. It's like a freezer when it gets cold. Though instead of adding additional height to the floor and needing a roof raise, I plan to spray foam under the bus.

The moral of the story, keep the panels!

~Robert
"Old School"
1981 GMC 11 Window Blue Bird

 

[Dirtdoctor]

Ohhh insulation and structural integrity. Fun topics. I’d keep the internal skin, and insulated the exterior. That skin is structural (according to a shop that exclusively works on busses). I did my research. But vapor barrier is important to seal stuff off and not allow breathing when it’s freezing outside amd you’ve got the drip stove cranked inside. So be mindful of vapor barrier and venting. But my Amtrans doesn’t leak, when I talked to the bus fixit guys they warned about farting around with the roof. They suggested a black mastic stuff on each rib and screwing or riveting the panels back on cause vibration will undo screws
Amd make noise. So black mastic stuff (non technical name) keeps things tight weather amd no vibrations. I’m putting solar panels on my roof, I will use some preformed strut type material and spray foam on top of them then do a hard coating over the foam, then install solar panels leaving a 4” gap between panels and spray foamed roof.
Good luck. How tall are you? Lowering ceiling height is a pain in the head. If you are 6’ or above.

Cheers.

 

[o1marc]

While the interior skin is structural, these bus bodies are way overbuilt to safely carry our children. When converting we can lose some of the structural integrity, and still be more than in the safe zone. While removing structural integrity removing the ceiling, we put much of it back with wood or whatever other products some use. IMHO, the subject is much ado about nothing. Consider that the BlueBird Wanderlodge RV is a school bus with half the amount of ribs.

 

[incubus]

I have removed the head liner,then installed 1.5"x.75" wood strips 8" on center front to back. Taped wires to walls and had it sprayed foam. Stiffened up roof, we have had eight of us up there at an event, no problem. The wood strips add thickness to insulation,make it super easy to panel, did side walls too.

 

[Nawbdy]

Since I'm one of the folks who got into an argument about taking out the inner liner I thought I'd comment. Last year in a thread just like this one I commented that I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably in my bus until I took out the inner skin and got rid of the insulation. Another member didn't like that and a melee insured. I tried to explain that my rationale was based on finding large areas of blackened insulation in the sections of liner above the rear ceiling (I removed to cut off 7' of the rear) that could have been black mold and I didn't want to chance it but he wasn't having any of it.

A couple weeks ago I finally got to the point at which it was time to do the deed but I decided I didn't want to remove the liners, just pull them back enough to get the insulation out which I did. There were sections of the wall insulation that were soaking wet but all the insulation in the ceiling was dry and clean.

There's no question in my mind that the liner in my bus is structural. I removed somewhere between 6 and 800 screws, that's just too many to not be structural. I didn't take any panel completely off to make it easier to get the alignment right when I reattach them. I actually put screws back in a couple panels just to see if my theory that it's doable is correct.

For me the decision was entirely time based. I HAVE TO be out of here this fall. That's not enough time (for me) to reskin the interior and finish the buildout so I'm foaming and screwing the panels back in place. I wish I could take the time to spray paint the interior but it ain't happening. I'll be lucky to have time to do a deep cleaning before I put the 'stuff' in the bus.

Below are a couple pics of what the loosened panels look like.

I was able to find a couple pictures of the insulation that was blackened which are below. There was damage to both top rear corners of the bus and I assume water had been getting in through those spots for years.

 

[Timeline]

Thank you for taking the time to post everyone!
John

 

[HamSkoolie]

I had some areas that looked like that in my fiberglass (just came out this week and is still stacked on the floor.


I didn't think it looked like mold but mine is all coming out along with all the interior steel panels below the steel. I dropped the perforated steel ceiling after numbering and putting an arrow on each one for re installation. I don't expect a lot of trouble but I spent decades working on military and civilian vehicles and airplanes.

 

[Nawbdy]

I had some areas that looked like that in my fiberglass (just came out this week and is still stacked on the floor.


I didn't think it looked like mold but mine is all coming out along with all the interior steel panels below the steel. I dropped the perforated steel ceiling after numbering and putting an arrow on each one for re installation. I don't expect a lot of trouble but I spent decades working on military and civilian vehicles and airplanes.

Yea in my mind it was better safe than sorry.

I had seen comments here that once you drop those inner skins it's very difficult to realign the holes which I why I decided on my 'let 'em hang' method. For me the problem in completely removing would be lifting them into place again. I really don't have help and there is no way I could lift, hold and then align them. It's just easier for me to leave them attached.

 

[LargeMarge-TC]

I tend toward simple.
.
If I was me, I would leave everything intact.
I would drill a few tiny holes in the headliner.
I would squirt expanding foam insulation into each hole.
.
After the foam expands and sets, I would trim the excess (with this stuff, I always load the cavity extravagantly).
.
Scuff the metal, spray it with upholstery adhesive designed for automotive headliner fabric, press my fabric in place.
Over and done.

 

[Nawbdy]

I tend toward simple.
.
If I was me, I would leave everything intact.
I would drill a few tiny holes in the headliner.
I would squirt expanding foam insulation into each hole.
.
After the foam expands and sets, I would trim the excess (with this stuff, I always load the cavity extravagantly).
.
Scuff the metal, spray it with upholstery adhesive designed for automotive headliner fabric, press my fabric in place.
Over and done.

I thought about cutting a slot into each 'bay' that needed insulation, pulling the batting out throught that slot then spraying in foam. I think it would have worked but I also think it would have taken just as long that way and I probably couldn't have gotten all the batting. It would have been hit or miss. If you didn't remove the batting, all you'd do is end up with blobs of foam around each hole and not even distribution.

 

[EastCoastCB]

Bear in mind its a very special kind of foam that's used when injecting into cavities. Otherwise it won't properly cure and you'll make it an even bigger job than it needs to be.