Hello From Utah + A Question

[UtahDean]

Hey Folks,

I'm Utah-based and am strongly considering building out a skoolie for full-time living for my family of 6.

I am coming from a non-trade background, so the prospect is fairly intimidating, but a skoolie represents a way to drastically reduce our ongoing costs and open up some fairly significant flexibility for us from a location perspective.

I'm considering a 2002 Thomas Saf-T-Liner with a 7.2L Cat 3126 Diesel and an Allison MD3060 Automatic. It's a 40-foot pusher with ~210k miles on it.

Is that a good bus? Are there any well-known issues with that engine or transmission combination?

I searched around the forum and it sounds like the MD3060 is a good option. Sentiment on the Cat 3126 seemed to be somewhat mixed. It sounds like it's important not to stretch out the oil and filter changes.

Do you have a sense for what a fair price on something like that would be?

Thanks!

 

[kromboy]

Can't speak for the Cat 3126 other than people avoid them due to repair costs.

I just bought a 2005 blue bird 40' RE with a cummins 8.3 and MD3060 with about 210k miles on it. Got it for $2600 at auction, its twin that was in a bit better condition went for $5600 same day.

I wouldn't spend more than $5k on a bus like yours at an auction, honestly wouldn't spend more than $4k but you might be waiting a while with that kind of price point.

 

[DeMac]

Optimistic Guessing

Hey Folks,

I'm Utah-based and am strongly considering building out a skoolie for full-time living for my family of 6.

I am coming from a non-trade background, so the prospect is fairly intimidating, but a skoolie represents a way to drastically reduce our ongoing costs and open up some fairly significant flexibility for us from a location perspective.

(......)

Thanks!

----------------

Hello. Welcome to Skoolie.Net

With retired buses, the original factory specs have very little to do with the remaining life expectancy. However, the operating environment, maintenance quality and engine hours will have a much greater affect on your purchase than the specs which the school board compared, when they purchased their buses, new.

For instance, a NY or NJ city school bus will see alot of salt, starts & stops (hours : miles) sprinkle in a bit of lackluster maintenance and the auction bus is scrap metal.

The same bus, same age & same miles from a rural private school in AZ, will likely have zero rust, be well maintained and have long distances between stops (low hours). Add factory AC, storage bays & tint and you'll see compeditive bidding.

At the retired auction block, you can expect the price to rise based in options. Options such as a high roof, dual ACs, underbay storage, tinted windows and exterior paint color. At retirement age, these buses are in higher demand.

Your initial purchace price will be your smallest expense. Once you own a bus and begin swapping old parts, you will know the truth as we do. Owning and operating a bus is not cheap, even when we perform our own maintenance and repairs.

How much time and money do you expect to invest, in order to achieve a reduction in expenses?
Have you exlstimated the break-even date?

 

[sportyrick]

Having just replaced my C7 in my service truck with another higher mileage engine which worked out well for me, I would insist that the engine run like a sewing machine with little blow by or walk on by. Make sure it's a cold start so you know how it runs from the git go, any misses, smoke or noises again walk on my if it's not perfect. Better yet pay a mechanic to give you opinions and pointers while doing such.

 

[UtahDean]

Can't speak for the Cat 3126 other than people avoid them due to repair costs.

I wouldn't spend more than $5k on a bus like yours at an auction, honestly wouldn't spend more than $4k but you might be waiting a while with that kind of price point.

Thank you! I appreciate you weighing in!

My impression is that there is a desire to get busses from ~2004 or before to avoid having to deal with some of the electronics and emissions stuff.

Is that accurate? Would you go with something more recent in order to get something from this list:
--
Cummins 8.3
Cummins 5.9

International DT466
International DT408
International DT360
International 444E if not a huge bus

Transmission to get.

MT643
MD3060
Allison 2000 series
--
Or would most people say don't buy unless you can get something from this list and also make sure it's pre-emissions changes?

 

[UtahDean]

Thanks, DeMac! That makes perfect sense with regards to the differences in usage and maintenance being the most important factor.

----------------
How much time and money do you expect to invest, in order to achieve a reduction in expenses?
Have you exlstimated the break-even date?

I haven't done detailed calculations, but on youtube I'm seeing people spending ~15k on the low end when they use a lot of reclamed materials up to ~45k.

We've got some acquaintances that built out a skoolie for ~35k.

Even if my all-in price were more along the lines of 60k, that's still less than a 3-year payback. That assumes that we aren't driving around much, and that we save our rent payment. My mental model as that the reduction in power, gas and water bills are offset with the costs to put diesel in for heating purposes and fill my fresh tanks, empty my grey tanks, etc.

From a time invested standpoint, I'm estimating 12 months of nights, Saturdays, holidays, and PTO time.

Does that all sound directionally correct?

 

[UtahDean]

Having just replaced my C7 in my service truck with another higher mileage engine which worked out well for me, I would insist that the engine run like a sewing machine with little blow by or walk on by. Make sure it's a cold start so you know how it runs from the git go, any misses, smoke or noises again walk on my if it's not perfect. Better yet pay a mechanic to give you opinions and pointers while doing such.

Thanks, Rick. I appreciate the context!

 

[kromboy]

If you go pre 2004 or so I think you'll snag an engine with no emissions.
Between 2004-2007 you'll get an engine with just an EGR.
Newer than 2007 and you'll have EGR + DPF + DEF

I think for mechanically injected, you have to be looking at mid or early 90s or older, it's harder to find on auction since most districts have taken them out of service long ago and they certainly fetch a premium.

I have a 8.3 ISC with just the EGR paired with MD3060 and I can't complain, get plenty of power for my 40' bus weighing 23k lbs.

Based on what I've read, I think 8.3 and DT466 are the most sought after.

Thank you! I appreciate you weighing in!

My impression is that there is a desire to get busses from ~2004 or before to avoid having to deal with some of the electronics and emissions stuff.

Is that accurate? Would you go with something more recent in order to get something from this list:
--
Cummins 8.3
Cummins 5.9

International DT466
International DT408
International DT360
International 444E if not a huge bus

Transmission to get.

MT643
MD3060
Allison 2000 series
--
Or would most people say don't buy unless you can get something from this list and also make sure it's pre-emissions changes?

 

[desrtdog]

If you go pre 2004 or so I think you'll snag an engine with no emissions.
Between 2004-2007 you'll get an engine with just an EGR.
Newer than 2007 and you'll have EGR + DPF + DEF

For Cummins engines, 2007-09 were EGR + DPF; 2010+ have DEF....If you are looking at a bus in the 2007 or 2010 years, you will probably end up with an engine from the prior year - so potentially no emissions, or just the DPF as it is based on when the engineers manufactured, not the bus...

 

[UtahDean]

Thank you!

Thank you all--I really appreciate the orientation you're providing around all of this!

I looked up the details via the VIN for a 2002 Bluebird and it lists a length of '8400'.

Chatgpt is convinced that represents 8400 millimeters, which works out to just over 27 feet, but that doesn't look right based on the number of windows. Any ideas on what that actually represents?

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I don't trust the info from the Bluebird VIN portal. It lists every bus as having the same ceiling height and same rear end gear ratio.

 

[desrtdog]

Thank you all--I really appreciate the orientation you're providing around all of this!

I looked up the details via the VIN for a 2002 Bluebird and it lists a length of '8400'.

Chatgpt is convinced that represents 8400 millimeters, which works out to just over 27 feet, but that doesn't look right based on the number of windows. Any ideas on what that actually represents?

27 feet is definitely not correct for overall length - possibly length of passenger compartment, so add another 10' to that if it's a dognose...maybe 6' or so if a flatness? How many windows?

For BB (at least my B the window sizes are either 35" or 28" as measured from c-to-c of the pillars. Also, I have a 6-window handicapped (dognose - or what they call a "Vision") bus with 3 small + 3 large...total overall length is 25ft...BB lists its length as 1910, which I would take as the interior of the passenger section in inches...

 

[kromboy]

8400 means 84 passengers, so it'll be a full sized bus.
Mine's also an A3RE 8400, I measured it the other day, 39'5" on the body alone. Didn't measure the 1-2 inches of rear bumper sticking out or the mirrors that stick out maybe a foot or so.

Counting the windows on the All American is a little weird because the 2 windows behind the driver is narrower than the rest. Mine only has 11 windows but it is indeed a full 40' bus.

Thank you all--I really appreciate the orientation you're providing around all of this!

I looked up the details via the VIN for a 2002 Bluebird and it lists a length of '8400'.

Chatgpt is convinced that represents 8400 millimeters, which works out to just over 27 feet, but that doesn't look right based on the number of windows. Any ideas on what that actually represents?

 

[DeMac]

Bus Specific Details

Wiki & CPTDB are great sources for sorting out which model/year might have a particular engine.

I used these sites to narrow my search criteria, before I bought Freddy D

 

[UtahDean]

I don't trust the info from the Bluebird VIN portal. It lists every bus as having the same ceiling height and same rear end gear ratio.

Thank you, I'll take those data points with a grain or two of salt!

 

[UtahDean]

8400 means 84 passengers, so it'll be a full sized bus.
Mine's also an A3RE 8400, I measured it the other day, 39'5" on the body alone. Didn't measure the 1-2 inches of rear bumper sticking out or the mirrors that stick out maybe a foot or so.

Counting the windows on the All American is a little weird because the 2 windows behind the driver is narrower than the rest. Mine only has 11 windows but it is indeed a full 40' bus.

Thank you, that's really helpful. Are the interior height and widths the same across all of the A3 RE 8400's?

 

[UtahDean]

Wiki & CPTDB are great sources for sorting out which model/year might have a particular engine.

Thanks, DeMac--that's helpful!

 

[kromboy]

I thought they were all 77" but I did see one yesterday that was 74"

You can tell if it's 77 or 74 by looking at the window height compared to driver's window. If the top of the windows behind the driver's window extend above, then it's 77", if they're all same level, it's 74"

Of course, you can also enter the VIN on vantage and it'll tell you.


For example

77: https://www.purplewave.com/auction/...Bird-All_American-Transit_Vehicles-Bus-Kansas

74: https://www.purplewave.com/auction/...Bird-All_American-Transit_Vehicles-Bus-Kansas

Granted these are FE and not RE.
I think the width is the same across the board but not 100% sure.

Thank you, that's really helpful. Are the interior height and widths the same across all of the A3 RE 8400's?

 

[DeMac]

I've only seen this much

I thought they were all 77" but I did see one yesterday that was 74"

You can tell if it's 77 or 74 by looking at the window height compared to driver's window. If the top of the windows behind the driver's window extend above, then it's 77", if they're all same level, it's 74"
(.......)

-----------------

My driver's window is actually higher than the windshield height, door too. Now that's different.

All 20 of these buses are 79" tall inside, yet the driver window is the same height as the pax windows. (Note the tall foreheads.) Not all manufacturers nor models nor years.... follow the same rules.

My other bus also has windows which are all the same height. While, I wish Noah were 74" tall inside, there's only 72" down the center.

72" is common, 78" is also common. I've personally not seen 74" or 77", but there is a lot I havent seen. (measured off the plywood or steel floor?) I do take photos, so other folks can use their own eyes. It's best to view the bus in person & bring a measuring tape.

 

[kromboy]

79"?! That's good to know, I didn't even know they had 79" school buses.