Hello From Utah + A Question

[UtahDean]

Two years.

Thank you for the estimate! I'll be working to try and beat that estimate, but it won't put us in a bad position if it takes 2 years. It's good to know what a 'worser' case (but not worst case) might look like so that I can confirm that doesn't put us in a bind anywhere.

You can learn the skills along the way, if you are open to learning the skills.

I've come into this assuming I would need to pick up a bunch of new skills. I'm expecting that to be challenging, and frustrating. Ultimately a lot of those skills are things I'm going to need to learn in order to build a house later on, so at least I'll be able to leverage the skills across more than one project.

If you are building using cash flow, that may further slow the schedule depending on how hard you are willing to squeeze your budget.

We've got the money in savings, so this shouldn't be a factor that slows us down.

Yes-a big one, and a bigger one: bus maintenance, which is required whether you drive or not; and bus repairs, which can be incredibly costly.

Bus maintenance includes oil, filter and fluid changes on a periodic maintenance schedule, and build maintenance such as storage battery replacement and other conversion costs that will accrue even if the bus never moves.

Thank you for the callout on the maintenance and repairs! If you had to put a number on maintenance for something that is only being driven ~500 miles a year (~10 miles each week to recharge fresh water, top off the tanks, and discharge gray water), what would that look like?

Obviously that is going to vary from bus to bus, but I'm just hoping to get a ballpark number. <$1k per year?

If your dream includes taking road trips, getting the bus in good mechanical shape is essential to avoid the stress of unexpected breakdowns. keeping the bus in good mechanical shape will require, over time, that you invest in bolt-on replacements (alternators, starters etc). Some of this is dependent on usage; all of it is dependent on the mechanical condition of the bus when you take ownership and park it in your driveway on the first day.

This is also a great callout. Thank you. This is again something that I would expect to vary greatly across buses and use cases. Do you have a sense of what that might look like on average and worst case for people who don't do much driving?

Something like the average bus seems to need 10k in the first 3 years and the worst case is more like 25k in the first 3 years?

My main concern here is that the incremental costs to being in a bus over the course of 3-4 years are more likely than not to be less than the 24k per year I'm currently spending on rent.

We've got a cash cushion, so it's not problematic if we have a bad year or two if the average over the years is highly likely to be less than what we are saving in rent.

You'll also pretty much need a generator (which has it's own maintenance and ongoing costs) for power on a periodic basis, unless you have shore power. If you take the bus on trips, even with solar you'll need something to keep the lights on.

I did have a generator in the plan, but I hadn't considered the maintenance aspect there. Thank you for flagging!

I'm really glad you came to this forum and are asking all the right questions. We all want to see folks successful, and the biggest factor in bus conversion success is starting out with open eyes (which only come with an open attitude like yours!) . Good on you!

Thanks, Rucker--I really appreciate that!

PS. Have you given thought to an RV trailer instead of a (more expensive on every level) bus? Finding one big enough might be challenging, but it would be an excellent proof of concept for the family.

I considered an RV trailer and did a little bit of research there. For something without a motor, I was seeing prices that were 30k+ for 30-foot trailers.

The space was less customized for our needs, and we'd still need something to tow it with--especially given that the water tanks generally seemed to be small and therefore we'd be making frequent trips to fill up water until we hit the point where we had a well. Not only that, the general sentiment I was seeing online seemed to indicate that the build quality/durability for a lot of the RVs was questionable.

It seemed to me like we'd get a better bang for our buck (albeit with a huge investment of time), with space more tailored for our needs and a better, more durable build by going with a skoolie.

I'm happy to have you flag though if there are aspects of the situation that I'm overlooking though!

 

[turf]

thinking that living in a bus is cheap is a big mistake. doing it solo is acceptable, doing it to your family is approaching abuse.

i havent read every word but i see the direction this is heading.
a bus that is liveable for a family of 6 will cost more than the 30k your balking at for a finished rig.

if you are starting out and need to learn some skills, you'll build everything 2 or 3 times to get it right. it will cost 2-3 times everytime you learn on the job.

colorado winters are cold. i bet utah is similar. winter in a bus when your heat fails..... its bad. with a wife and kids, its real bad.

i've lived through 2 winters in a well built bus. when your tanks freeze, and they will, whats your plan? you'll have to drive to arizona? a 200 gallon icecube is pretty challenging to deal with. especially at -20 outside.

im replacing my transmission now... its taken 6 months. the bill is around $18k. this is trans number 3 for me. maintenance cost are way more than $1k/year. you may get by with less 1 year, but it'll catch up soon. i've never taken the bus to a mechanic for less than a grand.

the people selling the bus you want to buy have deemed it junk and to costly for them to maintain. you're buying that.

its an old bus. if you want it to work for you, you have to commit to spending what ever it takes to make it work. and after you spent the money, its still an old bus.

its a never ending money pit, you and your family need to love the lifestyle for it to work. renting a house or aptment is an easier, cheaper life. always.
to think otherwise is fooling yourself.

your tires will dry rot right off your parked bus. miles or no, they wear starting when they go on.

buses seem to work better being used. parked and sitting is letting them rot.

its not a cheap life. its probably one of the more expensive choices you could make.

just sayin

keep your living situation, build your bus. when your bus is done, then plan on moving your fam into it.

my bus took me 5-6 years of working on it. winters suck..... chances are it sits empty from turkey day until march, unless your parked inside and heated. building any house for your family is a slow expensive process. to think building without experience that you can do it cheaper than others is......silly



good luck!

 

[sportyrick]

Well put, I would second those thoughts. I am a professional welder and machinist and my girl friend and I spent a full year converting our bus, every weekend except 2, it's a shoot load of work even for the skilled blue collar people. Also the bus you choose can make or break you so spend a little more money on an obviously superior specimen.

 

[BamaBus]

UtahDean,

What part of Utah?

Typically, I tend to buy a second parts bus (or car, truck) for anything that I have. Mainly I concentrate on the mechanical rather than on the body. To build on the two-bus idea from nikitis, which I think is a good idea for space for a large family, think of the plan in accomplishing this. It is not need to be done all at once but, in your case, having separate living quarters (such as a travel trailer) at the outset would have benefits. These living quarters could be sold after completion of a single bus conversion. The bus conversion could be minimalist at first and expanded later. After moving in to the first bus, start on the second.

I don’t feel that the buses need to be driven to accomplish your goals but having a mobile bus is. Maintaining the mechanicals of a bus is a major financial issue along with insurance and such. If you convert a bus, it can be towed later to any location you choose and maybe at a cost less than the ongoing maintenance. If you find a rust-free bus, the engine and transmission can be sold to offset the purchase price. If it doesn’t run, then you definitely will pay less and may have it towed.

If you do wind up with a non-running bus conversion then you would need a transportation vehicle, which you probably already have. If this vehicle was capable of towing a trailer, then the trailer could house some system for water and sewage transportation negating any need for driving the bus. You could pump water to and sewage from the bus with the sewage being hauled to a dump station or a septic system already on the property.

I would concentrate on the home first, then if you can drive one as a travel rig, all the better.

The two-bus idea is why I bought two identical 77” roof buses for a possible short term rental along with a campsite or two on my property. I drove both home and have very, very little money in them.

Just some thoughts.

 

[nikitis]

Yeah this exactly.

I think he's going to go with a good running bus, and then pick up a second one either running but in bad condition to park without insuring it a few months later when he can get onto the solid property to park and turn it into bedrooms.

 

[Rucker]

Thank you for the callout on the maintenance and repairs! If you had to put a number on maintenance for something that is only being driven ~500 miles a year (~10 miles each week to recharge fresh water, top off the tanks, and discharge gray water), what would that look like?

Obviously that is going to vary from bus to bus, but I'm just hoping to get a ballpark number. <$1k per year?

I'd budget about that. Others can provide their estimates or actuals

This is also a great callout. Thank you. This is again something that I would expect to vary greatly across buses and use cases. Do you have a sense of what that might look like on average and worst case for people who don't do much driving?

Something like the average bus seems to need 10k in the first 3 years and the worst case is more like 25k in the first 3 years?

I don't. My thinking is that it is entirely dependent on the current condition of the bus. In my mind, every time I take the thing out I assume there may be a tow at a minimum, so maybe $2,500 bucks to get it safely off the road and handle simple repairs?

I recommend inventorying the mechanical condition of the bus upon acquisition and repairing whatever is needed to get the bus in good operational shape.

We occasionally see posts here from folks broken down; sadly, some portion of those posters just sent it with a clapped out bus and ended up at the mercy of this community, who are always generous in advice, and at the mercy of tow truck operators and mobile mechanics to get safe.

You don't come off like someone who'd take that kind of risk.

I considered an RV trailer and did a little bit of research there. For something without a motor, I was seeing prices that were 30k+ for 30-foot trailers.

Yeah, we looked at Class C rigs and not one of them suited us from a price-value perspective. Thought I'd mention them though, some folks, it's a perfect fit.

 

[kromboy]

Well not to be that guy but just on tires alone, you should be budgeting a few hundred bucks a year regardless of how much driving you do.

Granted, if your plan is to do this for less than 10 years then you shouldn't have to deal with that.

Obviously that is going to vary from bus to bus, but I'm just hoping to get a ballpark number. <$1k per year?

 

[nikitis]

Or you can purchase Coach-net for $250 a year. If you get stranded they'll take your bus where it needs to go. If it's an issue you know you can fix have them tow to your home if not too far off, if you are off traveling far away, then they can tow you to the nearest mechanic, and you'll be spending that $2500 Rucker mentioned in repair costs.

 

[LargeMarge-TC]

a)
1 -- EGR is the equivalent of adding sewage to your drinking water.
2 -- As I understand that Caterpillar 3126, it uses oil pressure to operate the injectors?
Each seems fraught with potential tragedy.
Both violate our RequirementsStatement of 'dumb and indestructible'.
.
b)
For our uses, we prefer primitive.
We are frequently up rough logger tracks to remote mountain lakes.
We trundle across deserts to isolated Baja beaches.
.
Obviously, we require reliable and easy to fix.
That automatically excludes computers, Exhaust Fluids, and fussy gadgets.
.
c)
Any recommendations from our learned colleagues can only build upon your RequirementsStatement.
That could include your destinations and hours of travel.
.
As always, I suggest:
* acquire a suitable candidate
* toss in some car-camping gear
* go have fun.
Any rig is a continually evolving project.
.
Today's ideal rig will change.
You will change.
Heck, as far-fetched as it sounds, the climate could change...

 

[Omnibot2000]

Came in a little late. It took me with some help of my wife 18 months working on the bus weekend and on holidays.

At that stage the bus was functional for shoreline camping.

Includes A/C, plumbed propane for stove and hot water, 2 way fridge, Wood stove for heat. Waste water includes grey and black tank. Fresh is 55 gallons and we can stretch it out 5 days between the 3 of us......unless my wife gets into her crazy cleaning spree.....then 2 days.

I purchased a water damaged RV trailer and took everything from it to make it all happen.

As I said earlier, I made it functional. This summer I added additional equipment box for storage. Welded the waste water pipe holder to rear of bumper, installed back up camera. Installed 6 new tires, installed a diesel fired heater, installed a generator, serviced the front front bearings and service all my brake slide pins, rerouted my exhaust from rear discharge to side discharge making room for another 5 foot equipment box. Did some good cleaning/flushes on rad, replaced t-stat for 180 degree one and installed an air dam and shrouding to improve airflow to deal with the lack luster cooling system for a 3800 international.

All said, I still have a laundry list to do on the rig to make it a true travel rig but now I am comfortable on taking it out of province as it is.

For what it's worth. If your driving flat highways a T444e will work on a full size bus. I have 195hp with 2000 series trans. and it'll run 65 mph no issues on a nice day. Bucking a 50-60kmh head wind she fights as I encountered. She held the speed but ran hot, fan constantly cycling on cruising the highway. You can turn them hp up, just have to watch all your temps. including exhaust. The changes I made to my cooling system helped alot, thinking most of it was on the t-stat swap. If you plan driving mountains. That's a different story. I have not tried mountain driving with my setup, not sure if I would enjoy slow poking up a mountain but others have done it.

 

[Toddthomp]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come from a non-trade background and my wife and I spent 2 years of nights, weekends and holidays plus another 2 years every day after I retired to build ours out. We spent some extra time with a drop-down deck on the back, an upper deck and a custom solar panel rack which would have probably saved us 6 months of time if we left them out. As far as technical resources, I learned to follow this blog, consult my wife because she’s a sculpture artist with 40 years experience, google, YouTube and consult a good friend who works as a millwright at a lumber mill.

Our Skoolie is a 2002 26 foot bluebird with a high ceiling because I’m 6 foot 2 inches tall as well. It has a CAT 3126b with an AT545 and it’s been dependable so far but I would steer clear of the AT545 because there’s only 4 gears. As a school bus it was used in one of the suburbs of Lexington Kentucky which doesn’t use a lot of salt and it was well maintained. I think if I was in your place and going to build a bus for 6 people I would buy a 40 foot one with an international engine (ie DT 466) and an Allison MD 3060 transmission. DeMac on Skoolie.net mentioned a 40 foot international coach was his favorite. I would find an indoor place to build it and before purchasing it through a dealer for no more than $5-8K I’d have a mechanic give me their opinion. I’m not sure if it’s possible but if you could somehow have a mechanic check out a bus before you bid in one of the online auctions you ought to be able t save yourself a couple grand. I would test drive it up a long hill to make sure it could climb at a fairly fast pace (45 - 50 MPH). For ours to climb a steep hill I have to put it in 3rd gear and go 35 MPH which can be irritating to us and other drivers. Also, keep in mind how a small space like a bus can challenge relationships. I think if I was living full time I would find an RV park with a commons room or a membership to an athletic club to go to when someone needed some space.

 

[UtahDean]

Hey Turf. Thank you for weighing in!

...a bus that is liveable for a family of 6 will cost more than the 30k your balking at for a finished rig.

I think there has been a miscommunication here. I would happily spend 30k for a trailer if it met our needs. I'd spend 60k for a trailer if it met our needs. I'm not seeing anything that is a match though. Even buying a couple of trailers for a cost of 60k would result in less water capacity than I'm planning on in our bus and still leave us with no way to transport the trailers so that we can dump gray tanks and fill up our fresh water tanks.

if you are starting out and need to learn some skills, you'll build everything 2 or 3 times to get it right. it will cost 2-3 times everytime you learn on the job.

That's a great callout. Ultimately, the skills we're discussing here are skills that I need to acquire for the items that I'm planning on doing after the bus is done.

I'm sure that you're right that there will be things that I have to redo and some or all of those things will result in an increase in the cost of finishing the conversion. However, I think that learning those skills while converting a bus is probably a lower-risk, lower cost way of acquiring them than doing them while working on a house.

...when your tanks freeze, and they will, whats your plan? you'll have to drive to arizona? a 200 gallon icecube is pretty challenging to deal with. especially at -20 outside.

My current plan is that the fresh water tanks will go inside the bus. The gray water tank will be mounted under the bus, surrounded by insulation with an electric heating pad.

Those aren't fixed plans, I'm open to suggestions from people if that is insufficient. The point about having the primary heating system going down is a fair one. Primary heat I'm planning on being a diesel heater tapped into the main fuel tank such that it can only draw down to within a few inches from the bottom of the tank so that it can't run me completely out a fuel.

Secondary heating system would be the minisplit system. Electricity generation can be problematic in the winter, but the first place we are staying would have power on-site, so we can plug into that if push comes to shove.

I'm planning on including a generator in the build so that would also be a redundant way of charging the batteries. As always, I'm open to suggestions.

im replacing my transmission now... its taken 6 months. the bill is around $18k. this is trans number 3 for me.

I'm sorry that you're having to do that! If you don't mind me asking, how many years have you had your bus and how many miles have you driven it? What transmission have you had in it?

Have you had to do any other major repairs?

maintenance cost are way more than $1k/year. you may get by with less 1 year, but it'll catch up soon. i've never taken the bus to a mechanic for less than a grand.

Can I ask what you're including in maintenance costs? Are you taking the bus to a mechanic for oil changes? No judgment if you are, I'm just trying to get a sense of where your number comes from and if there are things I can learn to do myself to bring the cost down as I'm hearing some mixed results from different people across different platforms.

...keep your living situation, build your bus. when your bus is done, then plan on moving your fam into it.

Yep, this was my plan, thanks!

good luck!

Thank you!

 

[UtahDean]

Well put, I would second those thoughts. I am a professional welder and machinist and my girl friend and I spent a full year converting our bus, every weekend except 2, it's a shoot load of work even for the skilled blue collar people. Also the bus you choose can make or break you so spend a little more money on an obviously superior specimen.

Thanks, sportyRick!

 

[UtahDean]

What part of Utah?

Hey BamaBus. We're just west of Salt Lake, but would be moving up to southeastern Idaho once the bus is done.

These living quarters could be sold after completion of a single bus conversion. The bus conversion could be minimalist at first and expanded later. After moving in to the first bus, start on the second.

We'd stay in our current home we are renting until the first conversion is done and then we'd move into the bus, move up to Idaho and start on a second bus.

Thank you for your feedback and ideas!

 

[UtahDean]

Yeah this exactly.

I think he's going to go with a good running bus, and then pick up a second one either running but in bad condition to park without insuring it a few months later when he can get onto the solid property to park and turn it into bedrooms.

Yep, that is the current plan!

 

[UtahDean]

Well not to be that guy but just on tires alone, you should be budgeting a few hundred bucks a year regardless of how much driving you do.

Granted, if your plan is to do this for less than 10 years then you shouldn't have to deal with that.

Nope, I appreciate the callout. A few hundred bucks a year set aside for tires matches up with what I was expecting with a 7-year life on the tires whether they've hit their milage limit or not.

Thanks!

 

[UtahDean]

Or you can purchase Coach-net for $250 a year. If you get stranded they'll take your bus where it needs to go. If it's an issue you know you can fix have them tow to your home if not too far off, if you are off traveling far away, then they can tow you to the nearest mechanic, and you'll be spending that $2500 Rucker mentioned in repair costs.

Thanks Nikitis! I didn't know about Coach-net. That is good to know about as a resource!

 

[UtahDean]

a)
1 -- EGR is the equivalent of adding sewage to your drinking water.
2 -- As I understand that Caterpillar 3126, it uses oil pressure to operate the injectors?
Each seems fraught with potential tragedy.
Both violate our RequirementsStatement of 'dumb and indestructible'.

Thank you for the callout! Based on some earlier feedback and research into EGR, I decided to pass on the Cat3126 bus and am looking for something with one of the recommended transmission and engine combinations.

b)
For our uses, we prefer primitive.
We are frequently up rough logger tracks to remote mountain lakes.
We trundle across deserts to isolated Baja beaches.
.
Obviously, we require reliable and easy to fix.
That automatically excludes computers, Exhaust Fluids, and fussy gadgets.

Makes sense, we are not going to be that adventurous, but it still makes sense as you say to limit as much as possible the computers, DEX, etc.

c)
Any recommendations from our learned colleagues can only build upon your RequirementsStatement.
That could include your destinations and hours of travel.

The plan is very little driving. Picking up water and dumping gray tanks once a week, making sure that it's driven long enough on each trip to get the engine up to temp to avoid the problems that come about for running it for a short time and not getting it up to temp. Other than that, it will mostly stay in the same spot while we help my parents build a house and then move on to building our own house.

Thanks!

 

[UtahDean]

Came in a little late. It took me with some help of my wife 18 months working on the bus weekend and on holidays.

Thank you! I appreciate hearing about your timeline and the amount of progress during that time!

I'll keep the engine and the horsepower figures in mind.

 

[UtahDean]

I come from a non-trade background and my wife and I spent 2 years of nights, weekends and holidays plus another 2 years every day after I retired to build ours out. We spent some extra time with a drop-down deck on the back, an upper deck and a custom solar panel rack which would have probably saved us 6 months of time if we left them out.

Thanks, Todd! I appreciate the insight into your timeline and the spots where you could have omitted something to speed the process up or potentially traded some money for something non-custom to speed up the timeline.

I think if I was in your place and going to build a bus for 6 people I would buy a 40 foot one with an international engine (ie DT 466) and an Allison MD 3060 transmission.

You'd steer clear of Cummins?

I would find an indoor place to build it and before purchasing it through a dealer for no more than $5-8K I’d have a mechanic give me their opinion. I’m not sure if it’s possible but if you could somehow have a mechanic check out a bus before you bid in one of the online auctions you ought to be able t save yourself a couple grand.

Those seem like reasonable suggestions! I'll see what I can do there, thank you!

Also, keep in mind how a small space like a bus can challenge relationships. I think if I was living full time I would find an RV park with a commons room or a membership to an athletic club to go to when someone needed some space.

Yep, makes sense, thank you!