Help planning a winter-proof propane setup

[njl1031]

Hey folks,
I'm looking for help planning my setup, looking for critiques or advice.


I've been living in a smaller van full time for several years and I have a 20lb propane tank storage indoors within a vented propane locker, so I haven't had any winterization issues. I'll be moving into my new short skoolie this winter, and need to make it equally winter proof because I spend winters at ski resorts with temps regulalry in the teens/20's and dips into the single digits and negative.


I will be under-mounting a 30lb tank, or rather, I will be mounting it within an undermounted toolbox that I will line with insulation. My first question is, should I lay an electric heat mat or some of that electric heat wire in there too? Is that safe? Neither would get remotely hot enough to cause any issues, but in the the freak chance that there's a gas leak and electric short/spark at the same time, like during a collision or something?



From my internet research it seems the main winter issue folks run into is moisture freezing in the regulator. Would it be safe to have the regulator indoors, running the high pressue line through a bulkhead fitting up through my floor? The regulators are vented, but they only release gas in an over-pressure situation, not constantly, correct? I always have a propane detector inddors anyway. Alternatively I would keep my regulator outdoors in the box, but wrap it with heating wire.



Thoughts? Other ideas I'm missing? Thanks!

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I have used my truck camper with 20 lb. propane tank in an outdoor unheated compartment in temps below freezing. Have had no issues at all.

Have never heard of problems, but I don't know everything.

 

[nikitis]

I believe the propane just gets a little heavier, so it may not decompress quiet as easily acting like you don't have quite as much until it warms up. It's liquid form in the cans until it comes through the hose, but people have gotten away with it in the cold. Just expect a little less capacity unless you can warm it up.

The freezing point of propane is -306.4°F degrees Fahrenheit. . So there’s not much reason to be concerned about your propane freezing.

 

[Tejon7]

My 2 20lb tanks and regulator are mounted underneath, about 8' behind the front wheels. They're fairly protected from flying gravel, but they do get soaked with slush and muck in nasty road conditions. I haven't had any problems in my one winter on the road. I'd also heard about the regulators icing up, but I had also heard that they aren't very high quality and fail for numerous other reasons. My solution was to carry a spare and hope for the best.

I'm sure your heat tape idea would work fine and help keep the ice away, but electricity near propane gives me goosebumps. That's probably me being a little too cautious though...

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I'm sure your heat tape idea would work fine and help keep the ice away, but electricity near propane gives me goosebumps. That's probably me being a little too cautious though...

I agree. Change tanks in dry weather when possible. Use quality fittings.

As I said before, I have never had issues with propane lines freezing. but I only see 0° to 10° temps here.

 

[turf]

duplicate post

 

[turf]

i've had problems with propane and cold.

i dont heat my bus with it, but i've heated greenhouses and done extractions with it so i know how it works.

trouble starts with either high flow or really cold temps, or both.
above 0, you probably won't have an issue.

if you have high flow, like multiple heaters, and cold temps, you can freeze a regulator easy. in a bus i doubt its an issue.

most tanks have electric blankets made for them to help keep propane flowing. when it gets into the minus 20s, liquid propane isnt boiling anymore and it just sits and slowly evaporates. i had 25 greenhouse with 2 heaters in each houses. 1 big tank would feed 4 houses or 8 heaters, and they'd freeze up when they flow. the heaters in the houses would just shut down due to lack of fuel. that be trying to pull 2million btu through 1 regulator. it'll get frosty doing that.

uline sells tank blankets for most tanks. that would be if your stuck in 20 below...maybe. 1 appliance probaly doesnt draw enough to freez like that.

ymmv

pictures... frozen regulator, full tank, frozen regulator, frozen heater

 

[njl1031]

I'd also heard about the regulators icing up, but I had also heard that they aren't very high quality and fail for numerous other reasons. My solution was to carry a spare and hope for the best.

I guess just carrying a spare is a good idea, doesn't take much space. I'll have to look into getting a high quality regulator too if a cheap one could be an issue.

if you have high flow, like multiple heaters, and cold temps, you can freeze a regulator easy. in a bus i doubt its an issue.

uline sells tank blankets for most tanks. that would be if your stuck in 20 below...maybe. 1 appliance probaly doesnt draw enough to freez like that.

My propane is only for a tankless water heater and a oven/stove range, so probably not very high flow by comparison to what your experience is. I'll look into these heated blankets for tanks though, see if they're in my budget, I'd rather take preventative steps than find out the hard way without hot water or stove on a cold winter night.

 

[turf]

what is the source of heat for your van. water heater is a pretty minor use for propane.
if you're headed to the mountains.... back up heat sources are your friend.

i'd hook a line and be able to plug in a heater buddy to your tank system for another heat source.

the shape of your tank matters. horizontal tanks have less issues than a bbq tank. the surface area that evaporates matters. with a horizontal tank and your appliances, your probably good.

i have electric, diesel, and then propane heater buddy as backup. there have been mornings when i ran out of propane bottles and all else has already failed. wake up cold at 6am and head to walmart for propane... no fun at 20 below.

altitude can jack with you too, but that has been more of a problem with my diesel heater than anythiing else.

when it comes to heat, its good to have multiple options.

 

[LargeMarge-TC]

Journeyman plumber here.
.
We use BBQ bottles, five-gallon twenty-pounders for soldering copper pipe and fittings.
I can easily freeze a reg by trying to do too much too soon.
.
On a warm day in the sun, it'll unfreeze in a half-hour.
Inside in a cool day, I switch bottles.
.
Will your box-mount 30 continue to cooperate?
Hard to say.
A lot depends on your draw.
Maybe you could use only one appliance at a time?
I think insulation only slows temperature swings.
.
.
In our rig, we have two propane detectors from different manufacturers.
We also have two smoke detectors from different manufacturers, and two CO detectors from different manufacturers.
.
But none of that compensates for the poor judgement of inexperience.
That may seem harsh, but we are discussing extreme weather and burning down your rig.
.
An aside:
A factory RecreateVehicle might look like a template for your build, but they are neither a role-model nor suitable for anything other than a weekend at the beach.
.
[edited to add]
Plan B?
Plan C?

 

[Kentucky Dreaming]

I have been edumacated. I haven't used propane in those extreme conditions. Only for heating small spaces at or just barely below freezing for a night or 3. No high draw applications that would freeze the regulator due to rapid evaporation.

Gladly, we have folks with broader experience here. That's the best thing about this forum. Someone knows the answer to anything.

:Thanx::biggrin:

 

[Tejon7]

What he said. Ya learn something new every day around here. Thanks!

 

[musigenesis]

I will be mounting it within an undermounted toolbox that I will line with insulation.

If you don't have a heat source inside the toolbox, the insulation isn't really going to do anything. It's true that it would prevent your tank from cooling off quite as quickly overnight if it has warmed up during the day, but it would also prevent your tank from warming up quite as quickly the next morning.

 

[cadillackid]

propane boils somewhere around -40F.


the biggest issue you'll have is as mentioned the regulator.. but if you use the propane fast it will cool the tank down as the propane boils off.. propane is a grat transfer of heat.. so much so it even has an ASHRAE designation as a refrigerant of R-290.


if you have ever charged the freon in an air conditioner.. you'll notice your jug or can gets cold if you charge with gas such as 134a. as it gets colder its pressure lowers..


if you were to lower your propane tank to -40 youd likely have pressure issues getting to your appliance.. youd have to be using it fairly fast to do that...



tank blankets are only beneficial if you expect a huge temp drop overnight.. the blanket can actually hurt the situation by not allowing outside heat to get to the tank as it gets cold..


so lets say its -5F outside and you get your tank temp down to -30F through evaporation as you use it.. the outside at this point is actually trying to help WARM your tank not make it colder.. the frost foring on it is actually warming your tank and its contents.. you wouldnt want a blanket..


now if its 35F in the daytime and expected to drop to -5F at night.. youd want to insulate it while its still 35F outside to help hold in the heat... until (if) your tank dropped to below outside temp then youd want it uninsulated.. and of course as it warmed through the next day youd want it uninsulated to let it warm up to the outside temp.

 

[turf]

the tank blankets i've used are not so much insulation as they are heaters. like an electric blanket.

we used big ones on 1000 gallon tanks when the temps go down to -20. the lack of boiling inside the tank make evap slow. the tank blanket can heat the tank back up to that volatile boiling state its usually in.

not sure where it happens but as you go south.... propane is not available anymore.... they use butane instead. in places that dont get so cold, butane stays volatile and moves. its all about the boiling point. butane is around zero. so in frost free areas, your likely getting butane instead of propane.

its just the temp the properties of the gas work best at.

when i was extracting cdb/thc, we'd flood a cylinder of cannabis with propane or butane to disolve the cannibanoids. to get the propane/thc mix out ofthe cylinder, you can throw a tank blanket on the cylinder and nature will passively transfer the propane/thc to an unheated tank, from the one you are warming.
then you'd reclaim the propane vapor, and only the thc was left in the cylinder.
its boyles law.

ive posted vids of it before here and will do again if someone wants to see.

 

[AlphaHare]

Not a problem

My last house (in Maine) used propane for heat, hot water, and cooking. I had a 500 gallon tank outdoors (400 usable capacity) and the regulator was mounted to an exterior outdoor wall. Neither was shielded, or blanketed, or buffered in any way. I never had a problem with this in the 15 years of living there, and there are plenty of people well north of me that do exactly the same. My lowest temp was probably about -20F, and north maybe -40. Same experience with a camp in New Hampshire with two 100 gallon bottles. These domestic uses are relatively low-flow applications - not the greenhouse example above.

FWIW, the only time I've seen a tank valve get frosty is when using a weed torch on a 20lb bottle without a regulator. This is the gas laws at work (PV/T) - as you release pressure from a fixed volume, the gas cools. Same thing happens when filling a bicycle tire from a CO2 cartridge - the cartridge becomes cold enough to cold-burn your fingers.

Buffer the tanks with a vented enclosure for mud, dirt, and salt, put the regulator in the same space, and I think you'll never have an issue.

 

[AlphaHare]

Also

You can find an older PDF version (I think 2015) of NFPA 1192 online. IMO, it's worth reading to see what's code and inform your design decisions. The section on propane and gas lines is pretty explicit, and you can bet with fire codes that where there is a requirement defined it's because something bad happened previously.

I won't quote or preach code, but I personally try to follow it carefully. I'll sleep better at night, and hopefully wake up in the morning. It will also support any insurance issues or resale. ;>)

 

[cadillackid]

the tank blankets i've used are not so much insulation as they are heaters. like an electric blanket.

we used big ones on 1000 gallon tanks when the temps go down to -20. the lack of boiling inside the tank make evap slow. the tank blanket can heat the tank back up to that volatile boiling state its usually in.

not sure where it happens but as you go south.... propane is not available anymore.... they use butane instead. in places that dont get so cold, butane stays volatile and moves. its all about the boiling point. butane is around zero. so in frost free areas, your likely getting butane instead of propane.

its just the temp the properties of the gas work best at.

when i was extracting cdb/thc, we'd flood a cylinder of cannabis with propane or butane to disolve the cannibanoids. to get the propane/thc mix out ofthe cylinder, you can throw a tank blanket on the cylinder and nature will passively transfer the propane/thc to an unheated tank, from the one you are warming.
then you'd reclaim the propane vapor, and only the thc was left in the cylinder.
its boyles law.

ive posted vids of it before here and will do again if someone wants to see.

butane? ive not seen butane sold.. I see propane cylinders sold and filled even down in florida.. mainly for grilling and RV use.. bt have seen some torpedos at homes in florida where they want gas heat/hot water/stove...



butane has different properties than propane... ive cut propane with butane before to make a refrigerant that has lower P/T than propane... namely for R12 replacement (propane (R290) is an almost replacement for R22)