Hydraulic Brake question

[Bustang]

I have a 2009 International CE 200 25' bus. Recently had hydraulic brake lines replaced, pedal seemed to operate fine, drove it about 600 miles, noticed when I came close to stopping there was a rubbing noise. Had to drive another 600 miles the next day and noticed occasional rubbing noise and squeak. Bus went into limp mode, turned it off and back on again and seemed fine. Let it sit for 2 months while I was out of the country, when I came back every light on the dash was lit up, ABS, Traction Control, Brake Pressure etc. I could not get the parking brake to release. Went underneath the bus and new brake lines looked like the pictures here. Had to get it towed, it wouldn't move, tried to manually disengage the parking brake cable and it broke in the process. Shop where I had the work done is 1000 miles away. Shop here bled the lines and said the hydraulic abs unit (HCU) was bad. They don't think the crimped lines or work done would have caused the HCU to go bad. They are quoting me over $6k for repairs.

It seems a bit coincidental that the recent brake job wouldn't have attributed to this. Can anyone weigh in? Is this price highway robbery? Do those lines look like they need to be redone? Think there is a decrease in flow of hydraulic fluid because of how they are bent? Buses are expensive! lol

 

[ewo1]

If they are NEW brake lines, they should not be crimped like that.
could the tow truck have done that ???
Otherwise it is clear to me that the shop might have done that and yes, that crimp would restrict fluid flow...

Would it cause it to go bad?

IDK ???

 

[Bustang]

Yes they are new brake lines about a week old that they cut and bent themselves for install. They were crimped like that before I attempted the tow. I doubt the tow truck did anything. Prior to the tow when attempting to get the parking brake to release, you could hear the hydraulic pump trying to pressurize. Not sure if the HCU includes the pump.

 

[Bustang]

Also, when I called the shop who replaced the lines to tell them I was having it towed due to brake issues and sent them pics, the owner called me back and apologized. He said the lines look terrible, they don’t do work like that and said the tech who worked on them had already been fired for other incidents of “cutting corners”. So here I am.

 

[Bustang]

These are the codes it threw.
Spn 2580, Fmi 5, Sa 11. And Spn 234, fmi 6, Sa 11.

Can you replace air brakes for hydraulic brakes? lol.

 

[ewo1]

wabpco HPB maint manual
https://graphicvillage.org/meritor/MM0401.pdf

uploaded doc: -> : Wabco Full Power Hydraulic Brake Diagnostic Code (DTC) Index

The SPN 2580, FMI 5, SA 11 code indicates a problem with the brake pedal switch circuit or function. In this case, the Fault Mode Indicator (FMI) 5, which typically indicates a "circuit open or short to ground" issue, is combined with the SA 11.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• SPN 2580:
  This is a Caterpillar specific code, typically referring to the brake pedal switch circuit.
• FMI 5:
  This indicates that the brake pedal switch circuit is experiencing an open circuit or short-to-ground condition.
• SA 11:
  This code likely indicates that the issue is happening when the brake pedal is pressed, meaning the switch is not sending the expected signal when activated.

This combination of codes suggests the brake pedal switch is not functioning correctly and is likely causing a problem with the vehicle's braking system.


The fault code SPN 234, FMI 6, SA 11 indicates a current above normal or a ground circuit issue with the instrument panel. The FMI 6 means the current is higher than expected, and SA 11 indicates a specific failure code that is not easily identifiable, according to Diesel Laptops.

Elaboration:

• SPN 234:
  This Suspect Parameter Number (SPN) points to the instrument panel or a related component.
  
  
• FMI 6:
  This Failure Mode Identifier (FMI) means there is an issue with the electrical circuit, specifically a current above normal, or the circuit is grounded, according to Felix Equipment.
  
  
• SA 11:
  This Supplemental Information (SA) indicates the fault code is not easily identifiable and may require further investigation, according to Diesel Laptops.
  

In summary, the fault code suggests a problem with the instrument panel's electrical circuit, with a potential short to ground or an abnormally high current, and further investigation is needed to determine the root cause.

 

[ewo1]

Preliminary thoughts are, you got an electrical issue.
I WOULD NOT spend 6 grand at this moment unless you got the money to burn.

Most shops have no clue on how to chase down electrical gremlins and school busses have many gremlins!

I would dig deeper on what, if any, electrical issues you might have.

what you need to get, cheaper than 6 Grand, is...-> WABCO System Diagnostics

I, like many others here, advocate for DIY repairs when at all possible. Understandably not all can do it but most repairs on the bus are not hard it's just mostly a lack of knowledge.

First things first, check all your ABS/brake fuses and look for damaged wiring.

Read the manual I provided. Even if you end up paying, by getting edumecated first you might not get ripped off financially for the repair.

 

[ewo1]

$395.00

Meritor Wabco Toolbox Brake Software - Download

Meritor Wabco Toolbox Brake Software - Download <br><br> <b>*Replaced with WABCO TOOLBOX PLUS Diagnostic Software Subscription (Download)*</b>

store.diagnosticinnovations.com

 

[ewo1]

If the shop replaces the HCU they will have to re-program it.
They will need to have this SW or ONCOMMAND in order to fix/diagnose the system.

This software will do that.
Since you got this system in your bus, my thoughts are that it would be a plus to have this software on my laptop just incase of further issues later on down the road...and there are no mechanics around for miles!

 

[PorchDog]

In two months you can have rats. I did on the left hand side behind the instrument panel. Very depressing.

 

[Mr P]

Ditto on the electrical issues, start there. The lines that were almost kinked, I suggest replacing them with lines that are made from a copper alloy. They can be bent my hand without kinking (for the most part). They are very tolerant of bends, and will not corrode.

 

[Bustang]

wabpco HPB maint manual
https://graphicvillage.org/meritor/MM0401.pdf

uploaded doc: -> : Wabco Full Power Hydraulic Brake Diagnostic Code (DTC) Index

The SPN 2580, FMI 5, SA 11 code indicates a problem with the brake pedal switch circuit or function. In this case, the Fault Mode Indicator (FMI) 5, which typically indicates a "circuit open or short to ground" issue, is combined with the SA 11.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

• SPN 2580:
  This is a Caterpillar specific code, typically referring to the brake pedal switch circuit.
• FMI 5:
  This indicates that the brake pedal switch circuit is experiencing an open circuit or short-to-ground condition.
• SA 11:
  This code likely indicates that the issue is happening when the brake pedal is pressed, meaning the switch is not sending the expected signal when activated.

This combination of codes suggests the brake pedal switch is not functioning correctly and is likely causing a problem with the vehicle's braking system.


The fault code SPN 234, FMI 6, SA 11 indicates a current above normal or a ground circuit issue with the instrument panel. The FMI 6 means the current is higher than expected, and SA 11 indicates a specific failure code that is not easily identifiable, according to Diesel Laptops.

Elaboration:

• SPN 234:
  This Suspect Parameter Number (SPN) points to the instrument panel or a related component.
  
  
• FMI 6:
  This Failure Mode Identifier (FMI) means there is an issue with the electrical circuit, specifically a current above normal, or the circuit is grounded, according to Felix Equipment.
  
  
• SA 11:
  This Supplemental Information (SA) indicates the fault code is not easily identifiable and may require further investigation, according to Diesel Laptops.

In summary, the fault code suggests a problem with the instrument panel's electrical circuit, with a potential short to ground or an abnormally high current, and further investigation is needed to determine the root cause.

This is fantastic thank you. Did you put those codes into that software you mentioned? Which one specifically? I’m not sure exactly what hydraulic system I have is Wabco the only one?

 

[ewo1]

This is fantastic thank you. Did you put those codes into that software you mentioned? Which one specifically? I’m not sure exactly what hydraulic system I have is Wabco the only one?

I simply googled the codes you provided, easiest way to look them up!

What you need to do is get a build sheet for your bus. Contact your local stealer parts dept., give them the vin and they can provide it to you, free...
The build sheet will outline/detail all the components that were used to build your bus.

Most if not all International busses utilize Meritor/Wabco brake components...

 

[Bustang]

I simply googled the codes you provided, easiest way to look them up!

What you need to do is get a build sheet for your bus. Contact your local stealer parts dept., give them the vin and they can provide it to you, free...
The build sheet will outline/detail all the components that were used to build your bus.

Most if not all International busses utilize Meritor/Wabco brake components...

Good advice. These pictures are in the wabco manual. Code in the manual was a little different. Was the 2580 and FMI of 5. Had an SID of 57 instead of an SA of 11. But both were for power to the pump. I could hear the brakes try to pressurize when I turned the bus on. So doubt it’s a fuse (we checked but panel key was difficult to decipher), but maybe a faulty wire?

 

[Bustang]

Meant to attach this one.

 

[Bustang]

Is there a diagram to know which fuse is for the brake pump? As mentioned, the key was pretty faded so we just started pulling and checking. I appreciate everyone’s help immensely.