I have a good one for you! (Grab a beer for this)

[offroadvegan]

I'd like to do a very thorough write-up and give as much info as I can, to help me diagnose a weird issue in my 2004 CE200 Navistar T444e full size bus.

Bought it in Lubbock, drove it home to Tennessee, then back to TX twice. Ran like a gem.

It sat a little while we finished the conversion, but we still fired it up and drove it good distances to keep it happy.

We recently went on a 6 week west coast trip with my family. This was where the fun started.

Before I left, the bus had 2 batteries in it. My friend advised I add a third before we left. So I went and added a third. We left TN and made it all the way to Flagstaff, just fine.

The one morning, the bus would not start. Just a click, no crank. I connected up to shore power (I have a battery charge circuit off of shore) and the bus fired right up. Odd, but maybe just a weird fluke.

Drove to California, and while checking the batteries, noticed one was low. People advised me I should have changed all 3 batts at the same time. So I went to Oreilley's and bought 3 new batteries (they warrantied the third).

Next day drove to Yosemite, but that morning had a STRONG sulfur smell in the cab. Pulled over, opened battery door and no smell. Voltages read good. No issues. Kept driving.

Went up the CA coast, Oregon/Portland, Mt Hood, Bend, Idaho, Gunnison, and entered New Mexico. The road from CO-NM was VERY bumpy. I pulled the bus over to check my phone. Went to pull back out, and WARN ENGINE with no throttle response at all. Pedal went to the floor. Turned the engine off. And no start. Just like in Flagstaff. Only this time it would not restart.

Waited on the side of the road for an hour. Bus fired right up. We drove it 2 miles, and it did the same WARN ENGINE and no throttle, and no start. So we waited, and 30 mins later, it started.

We found a campground to stay at while we sorted it out.

Pulled codes. Codes about cooling system issues (bus did get warm on some climbs but nothing crazy) and TPS/IVS disagree. Drove to ABQ and bought a $400 TPS at International. Changed out Thermostat. I also got 3 new batteries again (warrantied) and put all 3 brand new batteries in.

Bus started up (after sitting 5 days). And we made it 30 miles. WARN ENGINE. No start. So I gave up and had the bus towed 60 miles to ABQ, to Roberts Truck Center.

They couldn't figure it out. They checked the batteries, and replaced ECM, and a few other relays under the hood. And guess what? The bus started and drove awesome for the 2 day drive home. It was fixed!!!!

Bus sat for 2 months here at home, and I wanted to stretch the legs out on a grocery trip. And 45 minutes up the road, guess what - WARN ENGINE and no start. An hour later it cranked up and I sped home.

I did some minor maintenance things - replaced all old breakers with blade fuses and replaced all the relays under the driver side window.

Bus has been sitting since, and we have had some cooler temps here in TN. This week it was in the low 50s and I went out to at least start it up. WAIT TO START LIGHT flashes off very fast, and bus cranks but will not start now.

So I don't know where to start. Even though I clear codes, I am still getting the following after driving:

111 No Errors Detected - Flash code only ECM
134* 91 0 7 Accelerator Pedal Position and Idle Validation Switch Disagree APS/IVS
131* 91 0 4 Accelerator Pedal Position Signal Out of Range LOW APS/IVS
135* 0 230 11 Idle Validation Switch Circuit Fault APS/IVS
325 110 0 14 Power Reduced, Matched to Cooling System Performance ECT
263 0 238 11 Oil Water Lamp OCC Fault OWL
626 0 254 8 Unexpected reset fault ECM_PWR

Some things I am considering based on research:
- Replace whole accel pedal assembly with new IVS inside.
- 10ga wires in battery box (I checked, seem good)

I do wonder if it is something in the battery box/wiring, as it seems whenever the batteries are touched/changed/etc that the issue goes away for a little while.

What else!? I really appreciate the help.

 

[offroadvegan]

I was able to catch the error when it happened.

 

[offroadvegan]

Also have a video of the WTS light flashing off faster than normal on a cold start.

 

[Ronnie-SKO]

Bad / loose/ corroded ground? Is the ground from the engine to frame good? Bad battery cable? I would take all cables off not just the batteries but the other end at the starter and frame and clean and retighten them. Did you check voltage at the battery with a meter, and check voltage at the starter when it failed?

 

[ewo1]

Bad / loose/ corroded ground? Is the ground from the engine to frame good? Bad battery cable? I would take all cables off not just the batteries but the other end at the starter and frame and clean and retighten them. Did you check voltage at the battery with a meter, and check voltage at the starter when it failed?

I was thinking the same thing, bad ground straps?

 

[offroadvegan]

Bad / loose/ corroded ground? Is the ground from the engine to frame good? Bad battery cable? I would take all cables off not just the batteries but the other end at the starter and frame and clean and retighten them. Did you check voltage at the battery with a meter, and check voltage at the starter when it failed?

I had the grounds checked at Roberts. Did not check volts at the starter, but the batteries were 12.74v.

 

[offroadvegan]

Bus has been sitting since, and we have had some cooler temps here in TN. This week it was in the low 50s and I went out to at least start it up. WAIT TO START LIGHT flashes off very fast, and bus cranks but will not start now.
.

Here is a video of the current no start.

 

[Thurmond1317]

If the pedal is electric, shouldn't there be a way to test it with a multimeter before replacing it? Making sure the harness is providing power and the pedal is capable of receiving and returning it. Or at least the sensor part of it

 

[ewo1]

Accelerator Pedal Sensor Diagnostics by Engine

https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f37/accelerator-pedal-sensor-diagnostics-by-engine-42296.html

 

[offroadvegan]

If the pedal is electric, shouldn't there be a way to test it with a multimeter before replacing it? Making sure the harness is providing power and the pedal is capable of receiving and returning it. Or at least the sensor part of it

I'm not sure, since the issue is that the sensors "disagree." I replaced the TPS, and the IVS is inside the pedal assy.

 

[Mr P]

https://www.skoolie.net/forums/f37/accelerator-pedal-sensor-diagnostics-by-engine-42296.html

Wow, look at that! A link to diagnostic info. How helpful!

 

[ewo1]

After re-reading this thread again, you make mention several times how you have had to wait 30 minutes up to an hour and she will restart.

You have replaced batteries and sensors, throttle pedal& pulled codes.

The warn engine light turning off rapidly also sends a message....

I would be inclined to revisit the bad ground situation. You mention the battery ground were checked at Roberts, meaning SOMEONE else checked them and not YOU!

This is important because trusting someone else to do a complete job nowadays seems to most times turn into throwing good money away for someone else's guess.

BTW, Guessing here is free, so you'll save a ton of money....

You make mention that the 10 ga wire in the batt bat seems good.
Unless you have a an at545 tranny there should be 2 10 gauge wires in the bat box. One for the ECU and one for the tranny. they would both be B+ wires.

Both of these units may be grounded elsewhere, not in the bat box.
It is important to find where exactly the ECU is grounded on your bus, open up the connection, clean it shiny clean and re-assemble.

A VISUAL INSPECTIN IS NOT ENOUGH!

Once you have done that I would undo the ecu connections, inspect and clean but before putting it back together again, identify for power and ground on the connector and stress test the wires. Look for bent pins, signs of rust and/or discolored pins within the harness connector. Darkened pins are a sign of overheating.

Best way to do it is with a light bulb or an ANALOG ohmmeter. digital meters will not stress the wires so please go analog.

Once you have verified your B+, ground wires and it connectors to be clean and solid then you can have complete confidence these 2 very important wires are in fact in good shape.

Intermittent electrical is almost always a by-product of loose/poor/dirty connections....

If your accustomed to driving/bouncing the bus alot, like in the video, I would also look for (visually) any wire bundles that could be subjected to bouncing on and straining up against some part/structure of the bus that might create broken wires within a loom.

Yes you can pay someone to do it but most shops today do not drill down to this level, they will just tell you the harness is bad and needs to be replaced.

After you have verified your wiring to be good, then you can further test your ecm functions.

Until you have absolutely verified your wiring, you might find yourself just throwing money into good parts.(you have already begun this)..because we didn't verify the wiring ???

 

[Omnibot2000]

Check your wiring at the starter. It's is used more and more as a power junction point.

Mine was filthy and corroded.

Alot of trucks now can have 8 or more gounds and powers running from the starter.

 

[Cheezewhiz]

Ewo's right.
Shops are generally ****.
I once took a truck into a place, asked for a thorough inspection, and to tighten the clutch linkage a bit.

They took two weeks, ****ed up my mirrors, and did absolutely nothing for several hundred dollars.

Another place, I was pressed for time working too hard, took a pickup in for a tire rotation. They argued with me for half an hour that I needed new tires and didn't do the ******* job. They at least didn't get paid. Friend of mine had recommended them, said they were solid.

There is one shop in Oakland, oddly enough, that I trust and are as good as their word.

 

[Diverdude0075]

I bought a ‘99 international 3800 with the T444E out of Lubbock 5-6 years ago. They had trouble getting it started and said it needed batteries, which it did. It still had starting issues. I drove 8 hours to get it home to Albuquerque. I did a deep dive into the wiring which has been suggested here. My starter is used as a power point. The cable going over the transmission to the starter was melted in places! I cut out all that mess, cleaned the connection points, of course replaced the batteries and she started perfectly after that. Don’t just check the connection points. Peel back the loom, inspect the whole length of those big cables. It’s a dirty job and sucks.

Later, I upgraded that transmission from the AT545 to the A2000 with help from this forum. Then I tuned the engine with tunes from PHP. She feels like a different bus!

Then I drove it 1500 miles to East TN while towing a ‘78 F100, where I currently live. She did great! Don’t give up!
I have three buses now. Careful, they can be addictive! Haha.

 

[Omnibot2000]

I I did a deep dive into the wiring which has been suggested here. My starter is used as a power point. The cable going over the transmission to the starter was melted in places! I cut out all that mess, cleaned the connection points, of course replaced the batteries and she started perfectly after that. Don’t just check the connection points. Peel back the loom, inspect the whole length of those big cables.
.

That I big point I also drive home. Perform voltage drops under load(which I have mentioned in other threads, not here though). That in itself can flush out alot of electrical gremlins.

With our old rigs, even the contacts in a plug Develop a little oxidation. Enough to increase resistance. The connection heats up creating more resistance till the female pin of a plug losses it's spring tension to bite the male pin. Then when cold a function may work, drive down the road the connection heats up and the circuit opens or resistance builds. Now you have an intermittent wiring condition.

 

[offroadvegan]

I bought a ‘99 international 3800 with the T444E out of Lubbock 5-6 years ago. They had trouble getting it started and said it needed batteries, which it did. It still had starting issues. I drove 8 hours to get it home to Albuquerque. I did a deep dive into the wiring which has been suggested here. My starter is used as a power point. The cable going over the transmission to the starter was melted in places! I cut out all that mess, cleaned the connection points, of course replaced the batteries and she started perfectly after that. Don’t just check the connection points. Peel back the loom, inspect the whole length of those big cables. It’s a dirty job and sucks.

Later, I upgraded that transmission from the AT545 to the A2000 with help from this forum. Then I tuned the engine with tunes from PHP. She feels like a different bus!

Then I drove it 1500 miles to East TN while towing a ‘78 F100, where I currently live. She did great! Don’t give up!
I have three buses now. Careful, they can be addictive! Haha.

Thankfully mine has the Allison 2000. And it has been awesome. I will be sure to check the connections and wiring, thanks. Where in East TN are ya?

 

[Eclipse436]

Sounds like you didn't have issues before adding the 3rd battery?

When you added the third did you make sure your connections start and end at opposite ends of the bank to equalize drain/charging?

Have you checked your alternator rating & output? The smell of suffer & issues after getting warm could be an indicator of an undersized alternator or failing voltage regulator.

 

[Diverdude0075]

Thankfully mine has the Allison 2000. And it has been awesome. I will be sure to check the connections and wiring, thanks. Where in East TN are ya?

I’m in Greeneville. Where are you at?