I think it’s time

[nikitis]

if i remember rifght the B and C was federal vs california and I think canada got the california programs as their standards were more restrictive than US federal.. I did a lot of experimenting with these.. and found that the codes in the 3 Box 94-97 manual did a good job of representing the T444E and that the power levels seem to be pretty cnsistent through all model years.. an AT545 should be able to take a B or C210 rating.. if it slips then that AT545 is not long for this world... the rating on them was high enough that 210 and the standard torque rating was well within the range of a 545...

Maybe, except that it just did a 1600 mile run this week with no slippage running at 2400 RPM during most of that run. Seemed fine to me.

the only exception to these EFRC codes might be the 02.5 and up as they all (low and high torque) used the same turbo.. ironically similar to the ford 7.3 turbo... that said im running a 2004 ECM in mine and used the 2004 VIN on it.. when I swapped the VIN back and forth (I had a NAVKAL subscriotion so I could download the calibrations from navistar based on VIN) I found very little difference in performance, boost or EGT from each other until i got up in the 230/250 range settings.. then i noticed differences...

NavKal is a connected service with navistar generally used for changing protected parameters through the dealer and getting the latest calibrations.. I changed the VIN and engine serial number using the god mode servicemaxx...

My ECM was updated to accommodate the new VPM Replacement. It's also possible that they uploaded later tunes for the engine especially if they knew there wasn't any hardware difference to make it operate better. I would of gotten any updates they made or bug fixes. I think i'm gonna try the 2161 EFRC here soon which is for the A195 1994 year engine. I think I have the 1994 Year engine because the stamp on the body said was manufactured September 1994, so it's likely a first year model. 2161 is the 195 tune and highest listed in the T444E EGES manual for 1994. They may have accounted for Transmission slippage potentially who knows and may be better for my situation?

 

[Omnibot2000]

Here is all the EFRC codes listed with each year difference that I pulled from Niks info and what I grabbed.


EFRC CODES

EFRC 2111
1994 160 HP CALIFORNIA
1995 175 HP FEDERAL
1996 175 HP FEDERAL
1997 175 HP 50 STATE
1998 B 175 HP, 430 FT/TQ FED
1999 B 175 HP, 430 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 B175 HP, 430 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2001 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2002 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2003 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ 50 STATE

EFRC 2112
1995 175 HP CALIFORNIA
1996 175 HP CALIFORNIA
1998 B 175 HP, 430 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
1999 B 175 HP, 430 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2000 B 175 HP, 430 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2000 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2001 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2002 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ 49 STATE
2003 C 175 HP, 460 FT/TQ 49 STATE


EFRC 2121
1994 190 HP CALIFORNIA
1994.5 190 HP CALIFORNIA
1995 190 HP FEDERAL
1996 190 HP FEDERAL
1997 190 HP 50 STATE
1998 B 190 HP, 485 FT/TQ FED
1999 B 190 HP, 485 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 B 190 HP, 485 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 C 195 HP, 520 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2001 C 195 HP, 520 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2002 C 195 HP , 520 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2003 C 195 HP , 520 FT/TQ 50 STATE

EFRC 2122
1995 190 HP CALIFORNIA
1996 190 HP CALIFORNIA
1998 B 190 HP, 485 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
1999 B 190 HP, 485 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2000 B 190 HP, 485 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2000 C 195 HP, 605 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2001 C 195 HP, 605 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2002 C 195 HP, 605 FT/TQ 49 STATE
2003 C 195 HP, 605 FT/TQ 49 STATE

EFRC 2131
1994 190 HP CALIFORNIA
1994.5 190 HP CALIFORNIA
1995 190 HP FEDERAL
1999 B 210 HP. 485 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 B 210 HP. 485 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2001 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2002 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2003 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ 50 STATE

EFRC 2132
2000 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2001 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA
2002 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ 49 STATE
2003 C 210 HP, 540 FT/TQ 49 STATE

EFRC 2231
1995 210 HP FEDERAL
1996 210 HP FEDERAL
1997 210 HP 50 STATE
1998 B 210 HP, 485 FT/TQ FEDERAL

EFRC 2232
1995 210 HP CALIFORNIA
1996 210 HP CALIFORNIA
1998 B 210 HP, 485 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA

EFRC 2141
1994 160HP FEDERAL
1995.5 210 HP FEDERAL
1996 210 HP FEDERAL
1997 210 HP 50 STATE
1998 BH 210 HP, 520 FT/TQ FEDERAL
1999 BH 210 HP, 520 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 BH 210 HP, 520 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 C 215 HP, 560 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2001 C 215 HP, 560 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2002 C 215 HP, 560 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2003 C 215 HP, 560 FT/TQ 50 STATE

EFRC 2142
1995.5 210 HP CALIFORNIA
1996 210 HP CALIFORNIA
1998 BH 210 HP, 520 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA

EFRC 2151
1994 175 HP FEDERAL
1994.5 175 HP FEDERAL
1995.5 230 HP FEDERAL
1996 230 HP FEDERAL
1997 230 HP 50 STATE
1998 B 230 HP, 605 FT/TQ FEDERAL
1999 B 230 HP, 605 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 B 230 HP, 605 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 C 230 HP, 620 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2001 C 230 HP, 620 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2002 C 230 HP, 620 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2003 C 230 HP, 620 FT/TQ 50 STATE

EFRC 2152
1995.5 230 HP CALIFORNIA
1996 230 HP CALIFORNIA
1998 B 230 HP, 605/TQ CALIFORNIA

EFRC 2161
1994 190 HP FEDERAL
1994.5 190 HP FEDERAL
1997 250 HP 50 STATE
1998 B 250 HP, 650 FT/TQ FEDERAL
1999 BH 250 HP, 650 FT/TQ 50 STATE
2000 B 250 HP, 650 FT/TQ 50 STATE

EFRC 2162
1998 B 250 HP, 650 FT/TQ CALIFORNIA

 

[cadillackid]

All B codes maxed out at 485 ft/lbs I believe. On a C rated ECM a C195hp had 520 ft/lbs. The C195 federal was 2121 while the California was 2122 EFRC code.

B codes stopped in 2002 I believe. I'll confirm on a spread sheet. Guess I got some work to do.

Furthermore the 2003 model as per the EFRC code list had a non waste gate turbo for the C215 rating and up. The C210 rating has a waste gated turbo and down.

I pulled these EFRC codes for the 1998 international 3800 series. Could they have had something else for a international 4xxx series. Who knows. I kinda doubt it though.

There was a bump in torque rating starting in 2000. My turbo is waste gated with .84 turbine 1.1 compressor if I recall. My turbo part number matches what international lists so it was not a miss print.

very very interesting.. shows how little I really know... ive never seen a waste gated turbo on a 2000/2001 other than a high torque... mine is a luggy 1.0 AR on both compressor and turbibe (non wastegate).. its a GTP38 turbo just not gated...

 

[BlueBoy-SKO]

You could always sort of pull a compromise with a pre-emissions chassis. Get something that old, and then it doesn't matter what is under the hood; with those restrictions gone, then you could do a complete re-power, because it's not like trying to drop a diesel in a half-ton, you've got all the strength and suspension you should need in a bus.

That way, you're really only looking for a clean chassis with/out an engine/tranny, and then you could look for a powertrain that suits your fancy. With those two done, the only other thing that might need to be made is a custom drive-shaft, which is usually a one-and-done sort of thing. Maybe make up some custom motor mounts, but that's not that hard.

So around what year are we talking about? From what I can see anything 2001 or even the first half of 2002, and earlier of course, should be what I need. If the ultimate goal is to put a Cat 3406B under the hood.

I found this online, it’s referring to semi trucks, but I assume it would be similar?
EGR first made an appearance in 1972 but it wasn't until October 2002 the EGR apparatus became mandated on heavy-duty diesel engines by the EPA.

 

[Omnibot2000]

very very interesting.. shows how little I really know... ive never seen a waste gated turbo on a 2000/2001 other than a high torque... mine is a luggy 1.0 AR on both compressor and turbibe (non wastegate).. its a GTP38 turbo just not gated...

That's the same turbo that's on my OBS Ford. Yes. Very luggy.

 

[Omnibot2000]

So around what year are we talking about? From what I can see anything 2001 or even the first half of 2002, and earlier of course, should be what I need. If the ultimate goal is to put a Cat 3406B under the hood.

I found this online, it’s referring to semi trucks, but I assume it would be similar?
EGR first made an appearance in 1972 but it wasn't until October 2002 the EGR apparatus became mandated on heavy-duty diesel engines by the EPA.

Any T444e equipped bus we can guarantee to not have an EGR.

I think it's safe to say, any engine that is newer then the chassis should have zero issues on the emission side of things....providing it was made for road use. Can't just grab some random generator motor or something unless you do your research.

 

[BlueBoy-SKO]

Any T444e equipped bus we can guarantee to not have an EGR.

I think it's safe to say, any engine that is newer then the chassis should have zero issues on the emission side of things....providing it was made for road use. Can't just grab some random generator motor or something unless you do your research.

No random engines here! The Cat 3406B I'm looking at came out of a 1992 truck of some sort.
Were the T444E around the same time as the DT466? The earlier DT466 were all mechanical.
All I need to know is what year chassis I need to avoid EPA problems with the Caterpillar 3406B in it. Looking online I’m having a hard time getting a definite answer. I like the internationals since that’s what I’ve been driving lately but I am not ruling out a different make chassis.

 

[Omnibot2000]

No random engines here! The Cat 3406B I'm looking at came out of a 1992 truck of some sort.
Were the T444E around the same time as the DT466? The earlier DT466 were all mechanical.
All I need to know is what year chassis I need to avoid EPA problems with the Caterpillar 3406B in it. Looking online I’m having a hard time getting a definite answer. I like the internationals since that’s what I’ve been driving lately but I am not ruling out a different make chassis.

If you wanna be safe, purchase a 92 or older international.

 

[Albatross]

No random engines here! The Cat 3406B I'm looking at came out of a 1992 truck of some sort.
Were the T444E around the same time as the DT466? The earlier DT466 were all mechanical.
All I need to know is what year chassis I need to avoid EPA problems with the Caterpillar 3406B in it. Looking online I’m having a hard time getting a definite answer. I like the internationals since that’s what I’ve been driving lately but I am not ruling out a different make chassis.

I would go pre-2002, or pre-2000 to avoid issues with your exhaust.
At that point, the only "Emissions equipment" you're supposed to have is an EGR valve, and even then, I've never seen anyone check them.

 

[BlueBoy-SKO]

Remove this

 

[BlueBoy-SKO]

If you wanna be safe, purchase a 92 or older international.

because of the 1992 Cat engine?

 

[Omnibot2000]

because of the 1992 Cat engine?

Just because of the 92 CAT engine. Who knows whAt the EPA might do in the future. Might work today but in 5 years from now?????

I'm just thinking of future proofing for dumb decisions. Who knows. May not happen.

Either way, it's the safest bet.

 

[BlueBoy-SKO]

I would go pre-2002, or pre-2000 to avoid issues with your exhaust.
At that point, the only "Emissions equipment" you're supposed to have is an EGR valve, and even then, I've never seen anyone check them.

Yeah first it was the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system around 2002
Then they came up with the Diesel Particulate Filter, not sure when.
And then the good ol’ Diesel Engine Fluid, not sure when that was either.
Hey, i’m all for “let’s have clean air to breathe”. But seriously, some of the stuff they do is just pure insanity.
I might have a few busses getting lined up. But it takes so long for them to text back, don’t know when I’ll go look at them.

 

[Omnibot2000]

I might have a few busses getting lined up. But it takes so long for them to text back, don’t know when I’ll go look at them.

I know the pain of people not getting back to you.

Last week today I hit a deer/buck. When I hit it; it left a big hole in my windshield on the driver side. Hit the thing at 80kph/50mph.

I knew the car was going to be a total loss. I started car shopping next day, saved 20 cars I was interested in. I messaged 12 or 13 people. only got 8 responses. I was getting so frustrated with people.

One person I messages said "text me next week" another said after we set a time and date said he could not make it 20 minutes before the meeting to "help a friend with something" another lady I messaged never responded for 24 hrs, I sent another message asking her "are you selling this car or not" She responded "are you interested" another 24 hrs after that. Told her "not no more, purchased a car". Another said "car not available"......then why list it?

I understand people have lives, just follow up with a message or take the ad down.

 

[DeMac]

Nothing Learned, Ignorantly Hopeful

Do you plan to do the work yourself or hire it out? Not sure what I can contribute. Never worked on an IH engine. Only Chevy, Ford & AMC. But I have a helluva Engine stand I built about 40 years ago. Get it balanced and you can spin the engine with one hand.

Precision ground guide pin and bushing from a metal stamping die.

have you diagnosed it further down at all? id hoped to have made your event but I missed the timeframe so I didnt get down to help you work on it.. maybe next event you have i can make the time schedule. just wondered if you had pulled the belts or looked at the clutch through the inspection holes etc t osee if in fact the motor broke. have you joined the Loadstar 1600 facebook group?

---------------------

I must have missed these posts.

Yes, Kentucky. I intend to do the diagnosis & repair work myself and also hire out if necessary.

Since I returned from my extended adventure I l've been inundated with family responsibilities and engulfed in post hurricane clean up. My grandkids (newborn included) have been coming to our house every day. So far I've been able to sterilize my hands & maintain clean appearance before I hold the baby.

I'll probably have more time available for myself in the coming weeks. I'm most efficient when I engulf myself into a particular task from start to finish.

I expect to repair or replace several faulty, damaged or missing items throughout the IH chassis & Thomas body. I don't intend to purchace any parts or components which do not need to replaced. Particularly the oversized engine, 5 speed transmision or 2-speed differential. The previous owner nailed it when he upgraded the driveltrain from a larger IH 1853 Schoolmaster.

In 1976 Thomas offered the (IH) Mighty Mite with a 304 or optional 345. The 392 wasn't available. The Loadstar 1600s came standard with two straight sixes, a 304 & 345 V8, (maybe a small diesel?) I'm not sure if any of the 1600s were offered with a 392 in 1975. I believe that would make it a 1700 or larger. (IdK squat)


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Also, in regards to the EPA topic:
The first set of emission standards for heavy-duty engines that became effective at the federal level in 1974 included only two standards, one for CO (40 g/bhp·hr) and one for HC+NOx (16 g/bhp·hr)

 

[cadillackid]

I’ve seen quite a few 1600s with 392s . Does make sense that the mity mite wasn’t offered as a 392 as it’s a lighter weight chassis. The 1600 series seemed to encompass a lot of different weight ratings.. when I was in ndianapollis a couple years ago at a party I met the guy who built parts of my engine.. a lot of his engines ended up in 1600 school busses.. one of the museum superiors .. a 5 window is a 392.. from the labeling on the chassis it appears to be factory original. That bus is a heavier axle than your Thomas.. it has 10 bolt hubs(stud pilot ).. there’s just so many variations out there . My 7 window DEV bus.. 1990 3800 is rated at a higher GVWR than my 11 window superior loadstar 1600…

 

[BlueBoy-SKO]

Well boys,
Here is the latest.
I found a bus! Drove out to Kentucky on Friday 5.5 hours one way. Looked it over and bought it. The plan was to take a Greyhound out and drive it back. Got the Ins and all.
Slight problem getting a ride out so I wouldn't be driving back at night. So I'm having it hauled.
It's a 1999 Freightliner Bluebird with a Cat engine, 72(?) passenger 12 windows. Got 266K on it so it was probably their long road trip bus. Should be here Tomorrow.
Got some pics so stay tuned.

 

[nikitis]

Congrats. Look forward to the pics.