IC. Ce 300 fools gold or not

[cofrari]

How BIG is BIG?

my son is a mechanic with his own 3 lift shop - he classes 'bullet proofing' as a big job - he must do a good job because the customers he's done it for rave about how good their trucks are after the bullet proofing was done - 'BIG" = 'expensive'

Is BIG like $3,000? $10,000? $20,000?

 

[cadillackid]

couple things about this one..



1. EGR cooler and oil coolers at 100k miles arent unheard of.. in fact a somewhat common occurance.. ..



2. why is a school selling a 10-11 year old bus with only 100k on it? thats an awfully short life for a school bus.. unless it has issues or is Rusted out..



3. how do you know it currently runs perfect? (seller tells you?) or a certified navisytar mechanic put it on his computer and drove it around with no EGR, Turbo, or other codes set and the oil temp stays within 10 degrees of the coolant temp, and no mixing of water / oil..



what I mention about the VT is I just plain assume if I buy one im going to replace the EGR cooler or delete it.. and replace the oil cooler.. if i buy one of those engines im going to pretty much tear it apart the day I get it home.. thats the difference netween it being a good engine and beiong a bad engine..







what has your mind set on a new model bus? theory of newer is better doesnt apply always to commercial vehicles.. just ask those who run Bluebird visions or thomas MVP ER's in their fleets...

 

[Sleddgracer]

Is BIG like $3,000? $10,000? $20,000?

I didn't ask - I just took it as being expensive - he's not one to exaggerate - I'll ask him

 

[cadillackid]

on the fords with the head studs, i believe Bill hewitt at power stroke specialties in atlanta area charges around 8900 buckls I believe but he does all kidns of stuff for that... works the heads, radiator and trans cooler I believe as well.. on FORD trucks he does this..


to buy the gear for a full ford 6.0 bulletproof including EGR hardware and oil cooler rebuild is a 2000-2500. then you have labor to install it if you arent doing it yourself.. again these kits are for doing fords including ARP head studs..



in my opinion tje 2 main issues on the international VT365 are the oil cooler and EGR cooler.. there are of course all kinds of other things you CAN do that are upgrades..



you can bulletproof your oil and EGR coolers for less than a grand in the coolers themselves but then you need all the peripheral pieces.. gaskets and what not to do the install.. I havent researched each and every part just because i dont own one..

if i ever buy one then I'll likely learn every nut bolt and wire about it (and post here about it when I do)..



Labor adds huge costs to these things.. so ultimately big money asctual numbers depends on your own skills, tools, and amount of labor you put into it vs amount of hired labor..



some engines have more you need to do than others by year as well.. early 6.0's had turbo failures because the VGT was a new thing.. that got fixed later.. the 6.4's had piston issues in some batches of serial numbers.. obviously changing pistons is a big endeavor.. to do it right you need to pull the engine and do a full rebuild..



ultimately EVERY engine has some sort of Achille;s Heal...

DT360/408/466 /466E if you get em hot the liner seals go T444E's had issues with injector cup cracks, leaking coolant into the cylinders.. aftermarket non OEM glowplugs had a tendency to break off and trash the piston tops.. all HEUI engines were subject to injectors going "rogue" and dumping fuel in the oil washing out the bearings.. Cummins 5.9s had the '53' block and killer dowel pin.. cummins 8.3 with dual A/C had issues with the front covers fracturing.. CAT ACERT engines could essentially Nuke themselves.. certain MBE's liked to eat oil faster than EC's subaru..





the cost to fiux any of the above and more really depends again on your ability to provide the Labor and gain the knoeledge to do it..



I personally spend alot of time learning deeply about the busses i have so I can hopefully fix things before they break.. when im safe at home in my storage unit with all my tools handy.. rather than out on a dark road in the freezing rain of january at 3am..



granted thats not always possible but any knowledge you can gain about your drivetrain is knowledge you can use to help fix it when it breaks. . or at least to not get taken advantage of by shady mechanics out there that see a pretty colored skoolie and say "oh yeah!!! lets rip em dry"....

-Christopher

 

[cofrari]

Thoughts on 2005 IC CE300 with DT466?

couple things about this one..



1. EGR cooler and oil coolers at 100k miles arent unheard of.. in fact a somewhat common occurance.. ..



2. why is a school selling a 10-11 year old bus with only 100k on it? thats an awfully short life for a school bus.. unless it has issues or is Rusted out..



3. how do you know it currently runs perfect? (seller tells you?) or a certified navisytar mechanic put it on his computer and drove it around with no EGR, Turbo, or other codes set and the oil temp stays within 10 degrees of the coolant temp, and no mixing of water / oil..



what I mention about the VT is I just plain assume if I buy one im going to replace the EGR cooler or delete it.. and replace the oil cooler.. if i buy one of those engines im going to pretty much tear it apart the day I get it home.. thats the difference netween it being a good engine and beiong a bad engine..







what has your mind set on a new model bus? theory of newer is better doesnt apply always to commercial vehicles.. just ask those who run Bluebird visions or thomas MVP ER's in their fleets...

CadillacKid: between your comments and 2 calls to local truck repair facilities (one of them the local International repair facility), I have successfully been talked out of the MX7 and the VT365. It kills me because the 2008 has such an pristine body and frame on it and new tires.


About 3 hours from me I found a place with two 2006 IC CE300 both with the DT466. One has a manufacture date of Sept 2005 and one with May 2005. What are your thoughts on a DT466 with a 2005 manufacture year? One bus has 140k and one has 105k mileage. Bodies look good; frame has rust behind back tires, but from photos doesn't look like it is flaking rust (I would of course drive out to see them first). Where seats are bolted to the floor is rusty looking (not sure if that is an indication of hidden problems). These buses are both $7,000 (compared to $4,000 for the 2008 ).

 

[musigenesis]

Where seats are bolted to the floor is rusty looking (not sure if that is an indication of hidden problems).

That is absolutely an indication of hidden rust problems.

 

[cadillackid]

back door bottom, step-wells.. ribs.. all places I look for rust.. if the seat legs are rusty.. to me that indicates the bus has water leak issues and ends up with a LOT of trapped humidty whuich causes mold and rust on the floors underneath...

 

[cofrari]

2008 IC CE with MaxxForce DT

back door bottom, step-wells.. ribs.. all places I look for rust.. if the seat legs are rusty.. to me that indicates the bus has water leak issues and ends up with a LOT of trapped humidty whuich causes mold and rust on the floors underneath...

I went back to the dealer this afternoon that had the 2008. They now have an additional five 2008 IC CE buses with the MaxxForce DT. Once again these buses are in amazing body and frame condition. Even engines look clean. Price is $3,500 each. All are in the 100,000-110,000 mileage range.


Bus Photo:
http://66in2weeks.com/bus/photos/busfleet.jpg



Reason for the low pricing is that they are contracted by local school districts for 10-years. At the end of the 10 years, the buses have a book value of $1,000. All they need to do is sell them for $1,000 to break even. So their is goal is to make a $2,500 profit on all their buses regardless of age, model, condition.


In the engine photo below, they mentioned that the blue "bar" represented it being a more desirable model engine that other MaxxForce engines. Does that make sense?



Engine Photo:
http://66in2weeks.com/bus/photos/engine_dt.jpg





These being DTs versus VT365s: what is your thought? And the buses started right up without any issue or hesitation.



Thanks again!

 

[cadillackid]

for those prices.. id likely still want to read the computer and blackstone some oil..



for reference.. the "blue bar" has nothing to do with the engine.. its the collapsible steering column shaft.. all busses have it... some are blue some arent...



the Maxxforce DT is the lesser of evils of Maxxforce engines.. Ive seen more MFDTs run long lives than I have MF7's by a long shot.. while they are based on the concept of the DT466E they are a whole different animal..


just remember 08 was the first year of the enhanced emissions systems..


since you seemn to be most interested in newer busses.. I will go with the fact that these are much better than the V8s.. assumin g they are good runners now.. and maintained well.. a mechanic inspection might be worth it.. and of course not by the dealer.. esp nbot a dealer that says the steering shaft makes the engine more desirable.. unless he can explain himself for a valid reason of stating that..
-Christopher

 

[cofrari]

for those prices.. id likely still want to read the computer and blackstone some oil..



for reference.. the "blue bar" has nothing to do with the engine.. its the collapsible steering column shaft.. all busses have it... some are blue some arent...



the Maxxforce DT is the lesser of evils of Maxxforce engines.. Ive seen more MFDTs run long lives than I have MF7's by a long shot.. while they are based on the concept of the DT466E they are a whole different animal..


just remember 08 was the first year of the enhanced emissions systems..


since you seemn to be most interested in newer busses.. I will go with the fact that these are much better than the V8s.. assumin g they are good runners now.. and maintained well.. a mechanic inspection might be worth it.. and of course not by the dealer.. esp nbot a dealer that says the steering shaft makes the engine more desirable.. unless he can explain himself for a valid reason of stating that..
-Christopher

In the engine photo:
http://66in2weeks.com/bus/photos/engine_dt.jpg
The shiny silver box on the top: I'm assuming that is the EGR Cooler? One of the other buses next to it (same year and about same mileage) has a rustier box. My assumption is that the bus pictured must have recently had the EGR Cooler replaced. Does that sound like a valid assumption based on the photo?


If that is the case, could that in any way be an indicator of some of the major repairs being already taken care of?


I definitely would get an outside mechanic to review the bus before purchasing just to be safe.


Thanks again!

 

[cadillackid]

its certainly possible and somewhat likely that in 100k miles and 11 years that the EGR cooler was changed on this engine.. the engine bay is certainly clean on this one.. I think those are a $1000 or more to buy so if its a recent replacement thats definitely a positive..



and like I mentioned before the MaxxForce DT is the better of the 2 platforms used in school busses.. the maxxforce 7 was a complete disaster.. the DT tends to fair better.. and even moreseo if you quickly take care of any issues you run into.. and also stay up fully on maintenance.. as well as fully pre-trip regularly..



I cant say whether that DT will break or not.. you may run it 200k without issues.. or it may break in 2 weeks,,



you may also be able to get the dealer to tell you what aschools it came from and contact them and ask them for any records they have pertaining to the units you are looking at..



maintenance intervals and any repairs made can be a good indicator of what the future brings... since the bvusses were sold to the dealership or traded in, the trans director has no reason to tell fibs .. some here have been handed large stacks of records for their busses..



EGR coolers replaced in the last couple years by dealer will likely mean its an updated unit.. TSB's performed on an. engine are updates that the manufacturer puts out as suggested service to fix a known defect.. they arent recalls because they dont affect safety but they are things that are learned later.. navistar calls them TSI's or "campaigns"..



running the computer can be tattle-tale on whether there have been over-heat events or oil-pressure loss events as these are stored and only "god-mode" software can delete them,, even dealers dont legally have God-mode software..



if the current dealer wont tell you what schools they came from, then you may see an original dealer badge inside the bus.. if they are still in business they may well tell you who they sold the bus to originally..



-Christopher

 

[cofrari]

Not buying from a dealer...

its certainly possible and somewhat likely that in 100k miles and 11 years that the EGR cooler was changed on this engine.. the engine bay is certainly clean on this one.. I think those are a $1000 or more to buy so if its a recent replacement thats definitely a positive..



and like I mentioned before the MaxxForce DT is the better of the 2 platforms used in school busses.. the maxxforce 7 was a complete disaster.. the DT tends to fair better.. and even moreseo if you quickly take care of any issues you run into.. and also stay up fully on maintenance.. as well as fully pre-trip regularly..



I cant say whether that DT will break or not.. you may run it 200k without issues.. or it may break in 2 weeks,,



you may also be able to get the dealer to tell you what aschools it came from and contact them and ask them for any records they have pertaining to the units you are looking at..



maintenance intervals and any repairs made can be a good indicator of what the future brings... since the bvusses were sold to the dealership or traded in, the trans director has no reason to tell fibs .. some here have been handed large stacks of records for their busses..



EGR coolers replaced in the last couple years by dealer will likely mean its an updated unit.. TSB's performed on an. engine are updates that the manufacturer puts out as suggested service to fix a known defect.. they arent recalls because they dont affect safety but they are things that are learned later.. navistar calls them TSI's or "campaigns"..



running the computer can be tattle-tale on whether there have been over-heat events or oil-pressure loss events as these are stored and only "god-mode" software can delete them,, even dealers dont legally have God-mode software..



if the current dealer wont tell you what schools they came from, then you may see an original dealer badge inside the bus.. if they are still in business they may well tell you who they sold the bus to originally..



-Christopher

The buses we are looking at are actually coming direct from the bus company that contracts with the local cities. In this case they had a 10-year contract with East Hartford CT Public Schools. They owned, operated, and maintained the fleet. I will be able to get the full maintenance records. They just sell the buses for $3500 regardless of condition. There is no price negotiation and no commission to the sales manager. These buses were used in the 2018-2019 school year and then used for a summer camp. So they just came out of service: they have only been sitting on the lot for about a week.


My hope is that I can get a local truck mechanic to go out on Tuesday and hook up to all 5 so I can hopefully pick the best of the 5 based on the results. If that works out, I'm sure I'll have questions based on what data comes back!


For what its worth, they have some MaxxForce 7s for sale. The sales manager told me he couldn't in good conscience sell me one of those. His hope is that they just sell them for scrap versus stick someone else with those. I'm hoping that means he is a decent guy and not trying to screw anyone.



Thanks again!

 

[cadillackid]

3500 is a tall price for a MF7 scrapper. since he likely wont get much for the engines..

 

[EastCoastCB]

3500 is a tall price for a MF7 scrapper. since he likely wont get much for the engines..

Agreed.

 

[cadillackid]

now if they got A/C and he wants to sell em in running order for $500 ill listen lol

 

[cofrari]

Maintenance History on 2008 DT

3500 is a tall price for a MF7 scrapper. since he likely wont get much for the engines..

I got the Maintenance History this morning on the 2008 MaxxForce DT. These were the major issues over the past 3-years:


- 01/17/2019: Coolant Leak = Water Pump Replaced

- 09/24/2018: Replaced Clearance Light Relay
- 07/18/2018: Replaced Brake Lines
- 02/01/2018: Stop Engine Light - Replaced DPF & 2 Gaskets
- 02/07/2018: Replaced Throttle Body - Inlet Throttle Kit
- 11/14/2017: Replaced Both Body Solenoids
- 10/04/2017: Replaced Throttle Body
- 07/12/2017: Stop Engine Light - Replaced EGR Cooler
- 05/03/2017: 4 Rear Tires Retreaded
- 09/27/2016: Replaced Blown Heater Hose


Additionally in May 2019, they had to "retorque the trans tail shaft flange" to repair a leak.



The vehicle was inspected every 3-months and in most cases everything was fine. It also received oil changes approximately every 3,000 miles (which tended to be about every 3-4 months).


-----------


On the comment about scraping the MX7: $750 is what they are scraping them for. $3500 is for the sale price for 2008 DT above.


-----------


Thanks again!

 

[cadillackid]

Now we are talking about a bus worth looking at.. the big ones.. DPF and EGT cooler are real recent and likely done with the updated parts. Brake lines at 10 years is a little unusual so I’d want to verify rust which o think you said WAsnt too bad
Christopher

 

[o1marc]

The reason a perfect 05-08 is going for $3500 is not because they cap their profit at $2500. Why would you sell a bus that is much newer and far better condition for less than it's worth and the same as an older one? The reason is everyone educated knows there are gremlins with the EPA stuff added after 04. These issues are problematic in diagnosing and expensive to repair and are quite common. They know this, so dump them as fast as they can.

 

[Tmy8ster]

The one I almost got was a 2009 ic. Ce 300 with 169000 miles For 3800$ the guy was uninformed on trans or engine
Looked nice but that don’t pay da bills so to say

Hah! Was this a eBay bus from Maryland??? Sounds way to familiar... I bought that bus. The bus is in amazing condition physically. I drove it back and had to regen twice though. I’m so torn on what to do about the reputation of these buses. The condition, ceiling height,, and low miles seemed perfect on the surface to me.

I need to unbolt the DPF filter and have it cleaned. I haven’t really touched the bus since driving it back.

 

[cofrari]

Hah! Was this a eBay bus from Maryland??? Sounds way to familiar... I bought that bus. The bus is in amazing condition physically. I drove it back and had to regen twice though. I’m so torn on what to do about the reputation of these buses. The condition, ceiling height,, and low miles seemed perfect on the surface to me.

I need to unbolt the DPF filter and have it cleaned. I haven’t really touched the bus since driving it back.

We got it from a local bus company that operates the buses for the local school districts. Their service department was super helpful in going over the entire bus with me. And since it had new tires, new EGR cooler and new DPF, and visually looked great, I figured I would take a shot at it. And we can continue to get it serviced by them when needed.



The bus company told me to stay away from their MaxxForce 7s. The guy said he would rather scrap them then sell them to a customer. But he felt that the DTs weren't too bad with proper maintenance.