INTRO: New Full Timer - Please Help Me Choose The Bus

[fadderall]

Got approval for comprehensive insurance today through State Farm in TN. And my understanding of the DL issue is very different based on my TN experience.

You will never need a CDL for a vehicle that is owned for personal (not commercial) use. Some states require a state endorsement for GVWR Vehicles above a certain weight, but at least in TN, this is also a mostly licensing thing. I never had weighted tags for the bus so it don’t think it ever applied.

If it did, once titled as a motor home that put an end to it. In most states (not all) any kind of motor home (regardless of brake type or GVWR) can be driven with a normal license (no endorsements).

All of that to say that in my understanding based on dealing with TN DMV, it is nearly entirely an issue of classification and not at all about the physical characteristics of the vehicle. There is reciprocity between states so if you are legal at home you are legal in all.

Seems likely some lobby money went into the requirements for RV drivers to be so lenient.

Did you get yours registered as a motorhome? Is that the way that State Farm insured it?

Sorry if my post was misleading, but your right no one needs a CDL for a private vehicle (even if it was a commercial bus). I just put in the Federal standards for CDL since that is what states use to determine their rules regarding large vehicles in the hands of private citizens. They can do something or nothing but whatever they do seems to come into play based on the weights outlined in the Federal CDL standards. The 26,001 # delineation.
TN sounds like a good state for this and I think you are right about the lobbying. Just like Arizona, once a vehicle is classified as an RV or Motorhome it is exempt from all weight classifications and you can drive it with a regular license. In Nevada its different. They make you get what they call a NON COMMERCIAL CDL based on the weight class rules of the CDL. So, even if you have a store bought RV, if it is over 26,000 then you need the special licenses.
Its kind of surprising since Nevada is a pretty relaxed state in most legislation. We have hookers, gambling, pot and machine guns, but for some reason they require a lot more for RV licensing then most other states. I guess with no state income tax, they gotta find new ways to generate revenue from us citizens.

Hows the trip going David? Hows the bus holding up? Wish you well, hope to see you on the road someday.

 

[fadderall]

Bus found

I guess I am now officially a bus guy! No more dreaming, found and purchased a bus!!!!!!!

Thanks to all on here that helped me in this decision and put up with my long winded ranting. It really helped me get this bus.

Time to close this Introduction Thread and start a build thread.

SIRI set a timer for 3 months.............

 

[brokedown-SKO]

Aweome! Make sure to link your new thread here.

 

[Gustav]

We will be watching. CONGRATULATIONS!! The agony is over and the fun begins, I think.

 

[2martins]

Just updated the profile. Trying to figure out how to put a picture up. Thanks for the heads up on that.

I was thrilled when I verified that my transmission was an MT643 instead of an AT545. It's not the BEST, but it does have lockout and I live in the mountains, so that's important. I'll be going slow in the mountains, but I hope not to be overheating while doing so.

For the emissions it's more like pre-2002 or 3 I think. The mechanical engine is the first half of 1997 for International. Mine is second half and the plus side of that is that I should be able to use my scangauge D to read the codes and know what's going on with the engine.

Good luck!

 

[2martins]

The 5.9 in a bus is mostly the same as the 5.9 in a Dodge truck. There are tuning differences for sure, and Dodge trucks generally don't have air compressors. Dodge trucks will be tuned for much higher peak power, the engine in a bus is set up for a longer service life.

I really don't see the T444E as being any less capable than the 5.9, and I own one of each.

I have a T444e. I'll be in the right lane, but hopefully I will be GOING in the right lane and not broken down on the shoulder. For a 40' bus I would think an 8.3 would be significantly better. I'm not in a hurry, so this was an acceptable tradeoff for me.

I thought it was supposed to be easy to get parts for this engine because it was really common. That really hasn't turned out to be the case for me so far. I could not find a fuel filter in Sparks, NV until I went to the International dealer and EVEN THEY gave me the wrong one the first time. And I had my VIN number. WTF?!?

 

[2martins]

I have read so many threads going back so many years on insurance and title that I cant keep up. I need some 2018 wisdom.

INSURANCE - Wow, more threads on this going in more directions then I can keep track of. Most info seems to be 2016 vintage with a little 2017 and a spat of 2018. What the hecks the deal?
Skoolieinsurance.com is dead.
General is dead but maybe a zombie?
State Farm maybe if you say the right thing in the right state?
USAA (my insurance) said no more RV sent to progressive who said no to everything.
AIS says on site no one likes school buses.
It seems to go on and on with different companies. In 2018, is it still the prevailing wisdom that I go to an agents office and tell them I want Commercial Vehicle for Private Use insurance? Anyone have luck with this in 2018 in Nevada? What company? Agent info by chance?
If I am going down tomorrow and drive back next day or two, I wont have time for that. Or will I? How long did it typically take for them to approve?Should I get temporary (I think its 3 day) commercial truck insurance?

CDL - No way I can get nor do I want a CDL by tomorrow. If I drive the bus from Arizona to Las Vegas and get pulled over, what exactly or typically happens? One dealer told me that the trooper will not let me drive the bus and give me a ticket. A good portion of the road from AZ to NV is in the middle of nowhere. Not even cell service. Dont want to be pulled over there. I will have all the school stuff off, lights and even the seats out before I drive back. Yes the seats will be out not pipe dreaming, found a hook up. Does doing all this help with the LEO? Any suggestions on what exactly to mention or not mention to the good officer? I only got one buddy with a CDL and he lives in Oregon dammit. Oh well, if I just white knuckle it, any suggestions on the route least likely to be a problem?
DIRECT ROUTE 93

A NICE QUIET ROAD BUT THAT STRETCH BETWEEN CONGRESS AND I40 IS EMPTY WASTELAND. LOOK IT IS EVEN CALLED NOTHING. I DONT WANT TO BE CAUGHT BETWEEN NOTHING AND BAGDAD!

THE LEISURELY ROUTE. UP THROUGH SEDONA GET MY VORTEX ENERGY TUNED UP THEN UP THE HILL TO FLAGSTAFF AND DOWN I40 93 UP. MIGHT BE A NICE SHAKE DOWN FOR THE BUS, SEE HOW IT HANDLES THE MOUNTAINS. NO MIDDLE OF NOWHERE BUT A LOT MORE INTERSTATE AND POPULATED LEO AREAS.

I know no one knows for sure but just looking for some opinions. Straight shot through the badlands or scenic drive through the mountains?

TITLE - Man oh man what a pain the paper work side of this is. Totally not clear. The Nevada DMV apparently needs the toilet, bed, kitchen etc stuff and an inspection. What about this VERMONT REGISTRATION thing? Sounds like JJ did that in this post and they still called it a bus (based on VIN I imagine). WAREWOLF claims all you have to do is call the DMV and they will send another corrected Vermont title, but this just happened so I dont know if thats right.
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f18/h...bus-as-an-rv-without-conversion-15292-49.html
Still, I wonder if I have that Vermont Title that says MH will I have to still jump through the Nevada hoops to get it registered Nevada MH?
Then, there is the whole issue of De-Rating the GVWR....ah well get a bus first kid, right?
I guess I can worry about title later main thing now is get it home.
Thanks guys.

NV LAW does NOT require all that stuff. One person posted that after talking to one guy at the DMV, but the LAW does not say anything about an RV having all that stuff, not inspections, and I did not have to get an inspection to title mine, which had been titled RV in Oregon before I got it. I'm not sure that part really mattered. I live in rural NV so I don't have to deal with smog. I did have my local community officer come and inspect my VIN number only and fill out and sign a form for me before I went to the DMV.

 

[2martins]

I think you are both right. I was looking into insurance, registration and DL today in order to get bus in AZ and bring to NV. I looked at the rules in AZ and NV and Federal.

The Federal law is 26,001 weight + is a CDL vehicle, but states can make their own exception laws for commercial vehicles (by weight) but used for non commercial use. Thats were personal use, RV, farm, off road and such comes into play.

In Arizona if you have something recognized as a motorhome (store bought RV or conversion as long as "for private pleasure" and not Commercial purpose) then you don't need a CDL or Any special license even if 26,001+ GVWR regardless of passengers.

In Nevada if you have something recognized as a motorhome (store bought or converted) you don't need a CDL but you may need a Class A, B, C, NON CDL and/or ENDORSEMENT. Its basically CDL RV license added to your DL but not a REAL CDL.

I think the 16 passenger thing is part of the Federal law and that is under the CLASS C Federal designation that says to the effect vehicles not meeting CLASS A or CLASS B but can carry more than 16 passengers require CLASS C CDL. If it is a commercial vehicle then the weight of most buses would negate the CLASS C anyway regardless of passengers. I suppose if you had a shortie 16 passenger that you wanted to use commercially (maybe hotel shuttle) and you took out a seat and it wasn't in the weight of CLASS A or CLASS B then you could operate it without a CDL (provided you also were not transporting hazardous material). Of course this stuff is only applicable to commercial vehicles anyway.

Each state is different and where each of you is located I am sure the rules are different. I am not even sure I have this totally correct, just learning as well.

So the bus might not always be a bus if its titled/registered a motorhome and 16 passengers may or may not come into play depending what your using it for and what states everyone is in.
Each state can require what they want to make it qualify as an RV. So once it does, for registration, title and Insurance (in terms of complete or in process coverage) the bus can cease to be a bus. But, the VIN I believe will always come up Bluebird or Thomas etc. BUS. That is also what the insurance companies ask for is only the VIN not reg or title.
So, to Ricky at the insurance company a bus is always a bus or converted bus. But to the DMV/State a bus is sometimes not a bus anymore but a personal pleasure mobile AKA Recreational Vehicle.

All the states accept the laws of the registration state of your vehicle in reciprocity, so you can drive around the country and not worry about different licensing or titling. The Federal law is for commercial to give one set of rules and grease the roads of interstate commerce. Sure would be nice if we were allowed to title our vehicles in the most advantageous state. Sort of how business opts for Delaware or Nevada corporation status. Of course it wont ever happen because our states need that tax dollar.

Federal CDL Rules
https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-license/drivers

Arizona Rules
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/03102.htm
Number 5 exempts weight over 26,000 if it is for "Private Pleasure". How much solar would I need to run that marital aide?

Nevada Rules
Nevada Driver Licenses and ID Cards

So, if I get my bus and take off all the school stuff it will be on Arizona title from Arizona dealer and sold to me for my Private pleasure, then I should be able to drive on a regular license. At least just to get it home. Once in Nevada I would get the Nevada NON commercial License and appropriate endorsements as needed.

Just for fun, I think the GVWR can even be changed. I havent gone too far down that rabbit hole yet but it seems theoretically possible.

GVWR is the max weight a vehicle can carry (including towing and the weight of the vehicle itself). Its the MAX loaded weight.

CURB WEIGHT is the weight of the bus with everything in it (options, fluids, fuel, etc) except for passengers and cargo.

Anyway, in a School Fleet post someone says that their Thomas Freightliner has a GVWR 28,999 and a CURB WEIGHT of 18,070. That means that there is 10,929 PAYLOAD pounds for those 72 kids or what all you are packing in the bus before you are illegally overweight (like my Saturday night after the Vegas buffet).

The GVWR is set by the manufacture as an engineering limit to what the particular chassis can safely move around. De Rating the GVWR would not defy the engineering limit but actually increase the margin of safety.

So in the above example, if we get the Thomas Frieghtliner MotorHome to be de rated to 26,000 pounds, then we would have 7,930 payload pounds for Passengers, 800 pound water/waste tanks, bunks, kitchen, etc. Of course it would be more because the weight of all the seats would be deducted from the curb weight.

So, as I understand, if we have a scale weight stripped, then add only weight to about 23000 or so pounds with modifications, water and such we still have 3000 pounds of cargo capacity for bikes, food, passengers and the drivers rear end. Legally, as long as we never load above that 26,000 we would be in legal compliance with the de rating. If we happened to load over by accident, it would never be a safety issue since the chassis can actually support an additional 3000 pounds. I wonder what the seats weigh does anyone know what a typical seat weight is?
Of course towing would be out of the question unless your towing a segway.

The thing is in Nevada if its under 26,000 then no special license is needed. I have read some people on here and elsewhere discussing this, but I cant say that anyone has been successful in practice. Does anyone have a confirmed case where they or someone they know was able to successfully get the GVWR DERATED to under 26k?

It may be more trouble then its worth. But, I hate the idea of wasting days with the DMV and testing and spending money for nothing but a letter on my DL.

BTW Page 5 of the Skills Study Guide shows that you need to take the following written and drive tests for the non commercial Nevada license. How you supposed to take a drive test without a license? How do you get the vehicle there? Under 26k starting to sound good.
Section 1, Driving Safely
Section 2, Transporting Cargo Safely
Section 4, Combination Vehicles
Section 5, Securing a Trailer
Section 6, Pre-Trip Inspection; A & B
Section 7, Basic Control Skills Test; A & B
Section 8, On-Road Driving Test; A & B
http://dmvnv.com/pdfforms/dlbookabj.pdf
Oh and there is also a Section 3 Air Brake endorsement. I better get studying.
:hide:

I didn't get my GVWR de-rated, but I got my bus weighed on the way home and took that paper in with me when I registered the bus in NV. The woman filled out my title using the weight on my weigh slip but lowered it even more for no apparent reaso. Perhaps using some formula? I have no idea. I didn't question it because I didn't want to have to get the non commercial class B license endorsement. I DID study the DMV info on the endorsement because I DO need to know the information. It's just a PITA to drive over the mountain to GET it.

 

[boojiewoojie]

Congratulations! Now, is your new thread up? If not, are you going to hold us in suspense or properly close this thread out with the details??? LOL

In TN the commercial tag for a school bus depends on the physical number of seats in the bus with the price going up of course for more seats.

And the (usually) civil discourse on this forum is one of the main reasons I keep this site on my front page. Always nice to see how people fix their ride up!

On the 466/530 I'm also assuming something has to be adjusted with the computer because of the different limits on the revs. Don't know if it's worth having a thread on this....

 

[david.dgeorge07]

Did you get yours registered as a motorhome? Is that the way that State Farm insured it?



Sorry if my post was misleading, but your right no one needs a CDL for a private vehicle (even if it was a commercial bus). I just put in the Federal standards for CDL since that is what states use to determine their rules regarding large vehicles in the hands of private citizens. They can do something or nothing but whatever they do seems to come into play based on the weights outlined in the Federal CDL standards. The 26,001 # delineation.

TN sounds like a good state for this and I think you are right about the lobbying. Just like Arizona, once a vehicle is classified as an RV or Motorhome it is exempt from all weight classifications and you can drive it with a regular license. In Nevada its different. They make you get what they call a NON COMMERCIAL CDL based on the weight class rules of the CDL. So, even if you have a store bought RV, if it is over 26,000 then you need the special licenses.

Its kind of surprising since Nevada is a pretty relaxed state in most legislation. We have hookers, gambling, pot and machine guns, but for some reason they require a lot more for RV licensing then most other states. I guess with no state income tax, they gotta find new ways to generate revenue from us citizens.



Hows the trip going David? Hows the bus holding up? Wish you well, hope to see you on the road someday.

Bus and trip are going great! Insurance was based on photos that a local agent took.

 

[fadderall]

NV LAW does NOT require all that stuff. One person posted that after talking to one guy at the DMV, but the LAW does not say anything about an RV having all that stuff, not inspections, and I did not have to get an inspection to title mine, which had been titled RV in Oregon before I got it. I'm not sure that part really mattered. I live in rural NV so I don't have to deal with smog. I did have my local community officer come and inspect my VIN number only and fill out and sign a form for me before I went to the DMV.

I think your right, I have done a fairly exhaustive search on the NRS and NAC and do not see where any of that is addressed. You came in with an Oregon title that said RV or Motorhome already. I think the problems happen if you want to get it converted from bus and the DMV people have no idea what to do. Thats why I was interested in the VERMONT title thread. If I can get a Vermont Motorhome title/registration, then I think I can breeze through the Nevada DMV as you did. While, I might enjoy the fight, I really dont have the time to argue with them about statute and code. It can be very frustrating and non productive because even though we are right they dont have to listen or accept anything we say.

How did you get the Oregon title on your bus? I assume you bought it that way, but do you have any insight into the process?

Anyone actually get a Vermont RV title just by mailing in the form?

Here is what I found in Nevada NRS codes.

NRS 482.071  “Motor home” defined.  “Motor home” means a structure:

1.  Attached permanently to a self-propelled motor vehicle chassis;

2.  Designed as a temporary dwelling for travel, recreational or camping use; and

3.  When assembled for the road, has a maximum body width of 102 inches.

(Added to NRS by 1973, 229; A 2001, 1725)

--Clearly, nothing involving toilets, tanks, electrical, kitchen, etc.


ADDITIONALLY, I found this regarding "BUS DEFINED"
NRS 484A.030  “Bus” defined.  “Bus” means a vehicle owned by the State, a political subdivision or a private school or nursery, designed for carrying more than 10 passengers and used for the transportation of persons, or a vehicle, other than a taxicab, designed and used for the transportation of persons for compensation.

(Added to NRS by 1969, 1476) — (Substituted in revision for NRS 484.021)

WHAT, WHAT, WHAT?? This would seem to support what 01marc was saying about passenger count and commercial use.

You're wrong, it depends on if it's set up to carry 16 passengers or more. Once the seats are gone it can't carry 16 passengers it is still a bus, but not a school bus requiring a CDL to drive if it is not being used for business. Buses are not like cars as they can be set up in different configurations. You can make a bus an RV, you can't make a car an RV.

So, according to this Nevada Statute, if I take out the seats I am no longer a bus. Well they could say "it was still DESIGNED to carry more than 10" but I would argue that it says "designed to carry more than 10 passengers AND used for transportation of passengers". I do not plan to use it for transportation of passengers (other than my family) its for camping. Also, I am not the State, a political sub, or a private school or nursery so none of it applies. According to this, my bus is not in fact a bus.

You're wrong, it depends on if it's set up to carry 16 passengers or more. Once the seats are gone it can't carry 16 passengers it is still a bus, but not a school bus requiring a CDL to drive if it is not being used for business. Buses are not like cars as they can be set up in different configurations. You can make a bus an RV, you can't make a car an RV.

FURTHER, Here is the NRS definition of a commercial vehicle

NRS 484A.055  “Commercial vehicle” defined.  “Commercial vehicle” means every vehicle designed, maintained or used primarily for the transportation of property in furtherance of commercial enterprise.

(Added to NRS by 1969, 1477; A 1973, 448) — (Substituted in revision for NRS 484.037)

So, I am clearly not a commercial vehicle.

I am also NOT A SCHOOL BUS

NRS 484A.230  “School bus” defined.

1.  “School bus” means every motor vehicle which is designed or used to carry more than 10 passengers in addition to the driver and which is:

(a) Owned by or under the control of a public or governmental agency or a private school and regularly operated for the transportation of children to or from school or a school activity; or

(b) Privately owned and regularly operated for compensation for the transportation of children to or from school or a school activity.

2.  “School bus” does not include:

(a) A passenger car operated under a contract to transport children to and from school;

(b) A common carrier or commercial vehicle under the jurisdiction of the Surface Transportation Board or the Nevada Transportation Authority when such vehicle is operated in the regular conduct of its business in interstate or intrastate commerce within the State of Nevada; or

(c) A multifunction school activity bus whose purposes do not include transporting students to and from home or school bus stops.

(Added to NRS by 1969, 1480; A 1997, 1619, 2007; 2017, 2177) — (Substituted in revision for NRS 484.148)

I did find one troublesome reference in NRS 706 MOTOR CARRIERS chapter. I do not meet any of the sections defining motor carriers. But, in this section they define commercial vehicle with reference to USC 49 (Federal Code)

NRS 706.675  “Commercial motor vehicle” defined.  “Commercial motor vehicle” has the meaning ascribed to it in 49 C.F.R. § 350.105.

(Added to NRS by 2005, 1351)

BUT, that is under "Limitations on Hours of Service for Certain Drivers" and 706.672 states the meanings are ascribed to the sections pertaining to those limitations. So, probably doesnt apply to registration.

But, CFR 49 305.105 defines a Commercial Motor Vehicle s having a GVW, GVWR, GCW or GCWR of 10,001 or more.
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2014-title49-vol5/xml/CFR-2014-title49-vol5-subtitleB-chapIII-subchapB.xml#seqnum350.105

One last thing. I just tried to get an estimate of Registration Fees online at the NV DMV. Based on the VIN, it would not let me register as Passenger Vehicle/MotorHome selection. It came back saying that according to VIN it is a TRUCK selection. If I select Truck then I have to put in GVWR and if I select over 26,001 then it says I must go to motor carrier division. If I select under 26000, then it gives me an estimate (about $700). So, it seems that they go by VIN. I need to get my title to say RV or Motorhome like you did 2Martins. I will look into the Vermont thing and I suppose call the DMV at some point and see what they want me to do out here. I am envious of your Oregon title

 

[fadderall]

New Bus Build

I will post the thread here and I am not trying to build suspense. The bus will be here tomorrow (Tuesday 7/3/2018). I was just waiting until I have it in possession so I can do a proper introduction with pictures and everything. **SPOILER ALERT** it is a mechanical beast 8.3 and 643......I wont be able to sleep tonight. More to come!

 

[yfrank14]

I remember reading somewhere, might have been my state of CT, that did require anything that was converted into an RV, have permanently attached to the vehicle a toilet, sink, something to cook with, holding tanks, plumbing and a way to drain the holding tanks.
They said if it had a portable camping toilet or BBQ grill for cooking, it would not be considered an RV.
So, some places do require it.

 

[o1marc]

I remember reading somewhere, might have been my state of CT, that did require anything that was converted into an RV, have permanently attached to the vehicle a toilet, sink, something to cook with, holding tanks, plumbing and a way to drain the holding tanks.
They said if it had a portable camping toilet or BBQ grill for cooking, it would not be considered an RV.
So, some places do require it.

Most states have 6-7 requirements to make it an RV. Most require only 4 of the requirements be met. So in many cases you could have 4 and not have a working toilet.

 

[fadderall]

Conversion thread now up

Bus is here and I started the conversion thread.
I am live streaming the entire build process LIVE at
www.twitch.tv/faderall
Every morning at 6am PST LIVE.

Here is the conversion thread on skoolie. I will keep this updated as well. Thank you all for the helpful advice. I have learned so much and have so much more to know. Already got the seats out. Tune in tomorrow to help me decide whats next!
CONVERSION THREAD-
http://www.skoolie.net/forums/f11/emilee-our-1999-bluebird-tc2000-full-conversion-23234.html#post278816

:Thanx: