Is this my unicorn?

[EastCoastCB]

The wonderful world of hub-piloted wheels.[emoji849]

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

Enlighten me, please.
The closest thing I've had are Accuride's with ball seat. Still technically stud piloted, though, right?

 

[BennysTire]

Enlighten me, please.
The closest thing I've had are Accuride's with ball seat. Still technically stud piloted, though, right?

So, there's stud piloted wheels, AKA "Budd" wheels. They typically have a beveled nut that fits a beveled stud hole. The rear wheels are bolted on with an "inner nut" (cap nut) and an outer nut. The nuts are left-hand thread on the left, right-hand thread on the right.
Then there's hub piloted wheels. This setup is where the nut has a flat washer that lays against a flat stud hole. The rear wheels are sandwiched together, and held on with a single set of nuts on the outside.
But it's not just the nut style that comes into play. It's about how the wheels bear the load of the vehicle. In a stud-pilot scenario, the wheels are piloted by the studs (I wonder where the name came from?...) The weight of the vehicle is transferred to the wheels THROUGH the studs. So for each wheel position, there are 10 relatively thin studs responsible for both the weight of the vehicle AND the spinning/lateral/turning forces of the vehicle. It's a lot to ask of such small components, especially you skoolies that build homes that are at or even ABOVE the GVWR of the bus.
In hub piloted wheels (wanna guess what bears the load?) The center hole of the wheel is "identical" (there's enough clearance that you don't need to press the wheel on hydraulically...) to the size of the hub on which it rests. The studs only provide clamping force, and only deal with the spinning/lateral/turning stuff. The weight is directly transferred to the hub, which is far more stout than the studs.
The way these wheels work can be best demonstrated by loosening the nuts on your wheel. In a stud piloted setup, the wheel will drop "off center" when the nuts are loosened, showing that the wheel relies on the nuts to "stay up"
In a hub piloted setup, the wheels rest upon either the large bearing housing of the hub on the rear or a set of "fingers" on the front hub that in each case directly transfer the load...
There's also Dayton wheels (the "open center") that is a whole other story unrelated to why I'd pass on the OPs bus...

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[EastCoastCB]

You're the tire guy, so I'll have to defer to your knowledge when it comes to this stuff. REALLY nice to have you on the forum, man!
On these Accuride's there is a center flange that the wheel rests on, too, right?
My fronts-

FWIW I think most school buses have stud piloted wheels. All 4 of mine have had them. 85 Thomas, 92 Ward, 98 AmTran, and now the 2004 IC.

 

[BennysTire]

You're the tire guy, so I'll have to defer to your knowledge when it comes to this stuff. REALLY nice to have you on the forum, man!
On these Accuride's there is a center flange that the wheel rests on, too, right?
FWIW I think most school buses have stud piloted wheels. All 4 of mine have had them. 85 Thomas, 92 Ward, 98 AmTran, and now the 2004 IC.

Your 04 is not hub piloted?[emoji848]

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[EastCoastCB]

Your 04 is not hub piloted?[emoji848]

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

Nope haven't seen an AmTran/IC with hub piloted. Maybe even newer ones than 04?

My 98 had the same-

 

[BennysTire]

Huh. Go figure. Well, you can buy a BRAND NEW import cabover (Isuzu, GM, Mitsubishi FUSO) and it still has stud pilot...

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[Twigg-SKO]

Just a small note.

Skoolie conversions usually weigh a lot less than the max vehicle weight.

To begin with, we aren't carrying the 2 1/2 tons of rugrats that a full size School Bus is rated for. Then there is the ton of seating that comes out, so the payload possible is enormous, and much bigger than the weight we add back with the build.

 

[jdawgsworld]

Huh. Go figure. Well, you can buy a BRAND NEW import cabover (Isuzu, GM, Mitsubishi FUSO) and it still has stud pilot...

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

I don't think I've seen any thing but stud pilot...I wonder if that's why I've seen hotrods with sheared studs? Hmmm...thx for this conversation...

Sent from my VS500PP using Tapatalk

 

[jdawgsworld]

Just a small note.

Skoolie conversions usually weigh a lot less than the max vehicle weight.

To begin with, we aren't carrying the 2 1/2 tons of rugrats that a full size School Bus is rated for. Then there is the ton of seating that comes out, so the payload possible is enormous, and much bigger than the weight we add back with the build.

I concur...but there are some exceptions...me, lightness is my friend...

Sent from my VS500PP using Tapatalk

 

[BennysTire]

I'd be curious to see the scale receipts for some of these busses.

My Chevy MicroBird has a 10,000 GVWR and weighed around 14k...

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[BennysTire]

My Bus, the truck I'm working on at the moment... Both hub piloted...

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[Tango-SKO]

Kwik note re: hub piloted rims...

It is highly recommended to apply a small amount of anti-sieze on the hub when remounting. These suckers can (and have) rust welded themselves to many a rim.

One more note...

NEVER apply anti-sieze to lugbolts!

 

[Tigerman67]

Just curious in the first photos in this subject, the back windows aren't even there, or they are covered over. What did the fire department use the back for? Garage, sleeping space?

 

[jordan76]

Just curious in the first photos in this subject, the back windows aren't even there, or they are covered over. What did the fire department use the back for? Garage, sleeping space?

Maybe a cell for arsonists?

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[BennysTire]

Kwik note re: hub piloted rims...

It is highly recommended to apply a small amount of anti-sieze on the hub when remounting. These suckers can (and have) rust welded themselves to many a rim.

One more note...

NEVER apply anti-sieze to lugbolts!

THANK YOU!

I'm CONSTANTLY smashing people's Neversieze bottles so that they stop slopping it all over things that shouldn't have it!
It has little effect on the hub/wheel area though.
Absolute best thing for the hub AND the studs is heavy oil (80/90 gear oil, bar and chain oil, motor oil in a pinch...) That, and keeping it CLEAN has effective results...

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[ShagNasty-SKO]

Jordan,
There are certain things that you should consider when looking at this "Unicorn". the first thing you stated was.

(Quote) What I've found is a 36' 1982 International with 188k (not sure of the hours but it was previously owned by a volunteer fire dept so I'm guessing not a lot of idling hours

Any and all "Volunteer" fire departments that I have seen and dealt with beats the ever-loving S@#t out of anything they drive.

With that it probably has spent many miles of bone jarring, bolt breaking, spring crushing, Dukes of Hazard river jumping Fast and Furious dirt road drifting all things hold my beer while I try this driving.

Probably worth poking around the underside and maybe taking it for a spin if possible if you haven't already done so.

Just saying.

Dan

 

[o1marc]

Kwik note re: hub piloted rims...

It is highly recommended to apply a small amount of anti-sieze on the hub when remounting. These suckers can (and have) rust welded themselves to many a rim.

One more note...

NEVER apply anti-sieze to lugbolts!

When offering advice to NEVER do something you should always explain why and not just an opinion.

 

[Twigg-SKO]

When offering advice to NEVER do something you should always explain why and not just an opinion.

When buggering around with lugnuts torqued to 500 ft lbs, you should know the basics or leave it to someone who does.

There is "teh Google" which has a wealth of information on this matter. Seeing a "NEVER" just makes me go check for myself.

 

[BennysTire]

When offering advice to NEVER do something you should always explain why and not just an opinion.

I'll add my own experience that "teh Google" may not yield...
Never-seize is a rather thick substance. Even thicker once exposed to the elements over time. Wheel stud threads (Especially those on stud piloted wheels) are a fine pitch and not too deeply cut. This leaves a very tight channel in which there is room for the never seize to fit. When the lug nuts are removed, especially with an impact gun, the never seize will actually create a hydraulic "lock" within the threads, greatly increasing the amount of force required to remove them, and greatly increasing the likelihood of stripping/wearing/crossthreading the stud or nut. All things that could happen immediately or gradually after repeated removals, but will inevitably happen.
Then there's the matter of "contamination"... You're thinking that painting this magical paste on your parts is going to seal in the freshness of the coated metal underneath, making in impervious to the elements. Great. Maybe it does. But what keeps the paste clean? When you take the nuts off, are you always doing it in a spotless garage with a polished black and white checkered floor? Or are you in dirt, grass, asphalt, concrete? When you set the nuts down, hundreds of tiny fragments of the motherland stick to the magical paste that you've gooped all over your nuts. When it comes time to reinstall the wheels, where does all that sand end up? In the threads. You could save time and just take a grinding stone to your wheel studs...
This is all in addition to the many (mostly) correct Google-able facts about friction/torque/clamping force that can be found.
I work in New Hampshire. I'm not going to claim we have the harshest conditions a vehicle can sustain. But I'm going to say we have our fair share. Many of my customers have tried varying amounts of anti-seize to keep their wheel studs and nuts both serviceable and long-lasting. In my nearly 20 years doing this I can confidently say that the proper amount of never seize to use is ZERO.

Sent from my E6883 using Tapatalk

 

[o1marc]

Okay, let me play Devils advocate. Anti seize has been used on millions of wheels studs over the last 50 years. there are very few "documented cases" of stud failure due to the anti seize only as the culprit. Studs and bolts have a "safe range" of clamping force. Using anti seize changes it, but it is usually still with in the safe zone. I raced cars for 20 years and always used anti seize on my studs and NEVER had a failure, usually torquing to slightly more than advertised spec. NAPA sells an anti seize product and specifically states to use it on wheel studs. Would a major corporation take on the liability of recommending this procedure if it was prone to failure, I think not? I see bolt clamping force chart where they show dry value and lubricated values (usually about half). Yes, if you're pig mechanic and work where you're picking up sand and dirt in your work, then you have other issues creating problems besides the proper use of anti seize. I think a much more prevalent problem in the real world is people who use a 200psi impact driver to put your lug nuts on, most often massively over torquing them. Most people use torque wrenches improperly.
Benny, in your 20 years dealing with tires, how many lug nuts have you removed and replaced and how many of them had issues pertaining to the use of anti seize? How many of those studs or nuts had other issues not relating to anti seize. I imagine it is a very small fraction of a percentage.