Manual swap: big trans to dt466 mechanical

[Mr P]

I've got an International 3800 w/dt466 (mechanical) and an Allison at545. I'd like to swap to a manual. I'm looking at a local and cheap 10 speed, which leads to many questions:

1) Has anyone here done such? (Big truck trans to dt466 mechanical.)

2) The Allison is the SAE #3 housing, does that make my flywheel housing a #3, or is it a #2 with a removable #3 adapter?

3) Was there a #1 flywheel housing made for the dt466 mechanical? If so, what's the part number?

4) Getting rid of the Allison will get rid of my parking brake. Has anyone adapted the brake onto a "big truck" transmission? Or has anyone used a pinion (or other) brake? (I have hydraulic brakes so I need a parking brake.)

5) Where can I find brake/clutch pedals and linkage? (Someone mentioned a 4700 series International...true?)

Thanks for any helpful info, especially any links to great documentation.

 

[s2mikon]

I have never seen a 10 speed with a parking brake. The high/low range box is air shifted so you will also need air. I have seen a lot of 5 speeds with parking brakes but not 10 speeds.

 

[Mr P]

Wow. It's crickets when talking about driveline mods....anybody put a big trans behind a mechanical dt466?

 

[Albatross]

That's a little bit beyond most of the folks here. Off-hand, I'd say I can only think of a handful of people here who might have the experience and/or capabilities and willingness to try something like that.



I would try it, but then I'm kind of stupid like that.

 

[cadillackid]

from what ive seen, all of the DT466's mechanical and otherwise are SAE2 housings with an SAE3 adapter.. if you have 2 rings of bolts around your bell then you have a 2 to 3 adapter..


the 1994-97 mechanical DT's use the newer style flywheel to crank mounting.. (same as the DT466E).. 12 bolt mounts so finding flywheel and any hub spacers should be easier since it went for many years with the same crank.


ive never done a big manual swap... have a friend who has done a 5 speed spicer swap from a 545 on his so its going to be different..


the parking brake is always an issue.. you may be able to diff mounted parking brake. some differentials supported a park brake mounted on them.. not sure what axle you have.



as others have mentioned you may eed air for the splitter on the 10 speed


another option is twin stick..


my buddy did his swap with a 5 speed spicer and then a divorced 4 speed slave box.. the 4 speed slave box has 1 overdrive gear in it... instead of shifting with a splitter he can shift either box.. the 5 speed is syncro and the 4 speed brownie box is not..



theres not 20 unique gears as some are redundant but he has pretty much a gear for every condition including cruising down the highway nicely...

 

[nikitis]

from what ive seen, all of the DT466's mechanical and otherwise are SAE2 housings with an SAE3 adapter.. if you have 2 rings of bolts around your bell then you have a 2 to 3 adapter..

Looking under my T444E, I believe it uses the adapter.

 

[Mr P]

Caddykid, your interchange info is exactly the kind of thing I want to know. How did you find out....got any links to sites with that kinda info?

So the last few years of mechanical were made like some or all "E" models?

 

[cadillackid]

Caddykid, your interchange info is exactly the kind of thing I want to know. How did you find out....got any links to sites with that kinda info?

So the last few years of mechanical were made like some or all "E" models?

as far as the crank hub and housing.. the rest of the engine on an E is different..



in 1994 International released the NGD (next generation diesel).. the crank was different on this engine from the older variants..


the crank uses 12 bots instead of 8 at the rear for mounting the flywheel.

at the front, the balancer was different and its a complete serp belt system as well as the tiing gear drive changed to incorporate the Air brake compressor.



the DT466E built upon the NGD short block... the 'E' has completely different heads and timing setup compared to the mechanical as theres now an HPOP instead of a Bosch Pump... but the rear crank hub and flywheel housing remains the same.



since your bus is a 3800 series conventional chassis then most things mechanical when related to the chassis such as engine / transmission / driveline are swappable from the 4700 series truck (very common).. the cowl forward was almost the same.. even pedals and clutches are largely the same... of course some differences like floor boots and the length of the stick itself are different on a bus..



do you need 10 speeds or is it just a nicety? alot of what you can put together is a package of rear gear and transmission as well as engine horsepower... if your 466 is P-pumped you can definitely tur it up some pretty safely.. maybe you could get away with a spicer 7 (6 +1 OD).. and then gear accordingly in the rear.. ive seen spicer 7s with park brakes..



granted its not nearly as strong as an eaton 10 if you are planning to crank your engine power way up...

not sure what your plans are..

 

[Mr P]

First, I'm a veteran car/light truck mechanic. I sought out the dt466 mechanical so I can avoid all HUEI problems. Personally, I love a stick shift. Also, after 400+ miles home, I dislike the non lock at545.

I have access to a cheap, "trustworthy" ZF Meritor 10 speed. Hurdles that I know I stated in the original post. I'd consider "turning it up", but as a mechanic and gas engine "hotrodder", I understand there will be trade offs...but my focus is reliability, so I'm very hesitant to mod the HP.

Please tell me: how you know/how I can verify this great interchange info you gave me? (If I go off to search out parts, I'd like more than one source of info.
(No disrespect to you intended.)

Thanks for the info.

 

[cadillackid]

First, I'm a veteran car/light truck mechanic. I sought out the dt466 mechanical so I can avoid all HUEI problems. Personally, I love a stick shift. Also, after 400+ miles home, I dislike the non lock at545.

I have access to a cheap, "trustworthy" ZF Meritor 10 speed. Hurdles that I know I stated in the original post. I'd consider "turning it up", but as a mechanic and gas engine "hotrodder", I understand there will be trade offs...but my focus is reliability, so I'm very hesitant to mod the HP.

Please tell me: how you know/how I can verify this great interchange info you gave me? (If I go off to search out parts, I'd like more than one source of info.
(No disrespect to you intended.)

Thanks for the info.

I dont have any type of verification.. ive picked up my info from experience with my and other people's builds as well as vehicles ive driven. so unfortunately i dont have part numbers for you either.. I dont have parts books.. RepairLink online is sketchy when it gets older than about 1998.


alot of this ends up being custom Fab and build esp if a ZF 10 never was put in a 4700.. things like how heavy is it, how long is it and what will it do to your pinion angle etc.. , will it need a cross brace.. things i cant answer as I havent worked on a ZF 10 swap...



100% agree with getting rid of the AT545! I swapped away 2 545's on my own busses!!

 

[Mr P]

I expect some custom fab, the parking brake being one high hurdle that I must figure out before committing to the 10 speed.

 

[Mr P]

Upon talking to a few knowledgeable truck salvage yard folks, Caddilackid's advice was spot on.

And Meritor is Rockwell, Rockwell clutch housings should fit. A #2 is available, so I'm trying to buy the trans.

Thank you Caddilackid for the info. It helped me ask good questions and not look like a noob with a school bus. Thanks!

 

[s2mikon]

Also make sure you get a pull clutch. Otherwise you won't get a clutch brake IIRC.

 

[bluebird90]

Forget the 10 speed. most Spicer and eaton 5 and 6 speeds can be got with a parking brake. I have a spicer 5 speed in my ihc 3800 and it works fine. Make sure to get the drive shaft, all pedals etc too. another way to go is an allison MT643.

 

[bluebird90]

Are you sure the engine is a mechanical? by 1996 all dt466 engines were electronic.

 

[cadillackid]

Are you sure the engine is a mechanical? by 1996 all dt466 engines were electronic.

Not so.. Amtran offered a mechanical 466 up through the 98 (bus model year) (97 chassis year) in their branded busses


ive personally driven a 97 Amtran Genesis with a mechanical 466

 

[Mr P]

by 1996 all dt466 engines were electronic.

Wow. FALSE!

Google NGD dt466. P pump. 12 bolt flywheel flange. Kinda the best of both worlds, still mechanical and yet has more modern (and more common) flywheel housing and flywheel.

 

[Omnibot2000]

In a pinch, find a diff with a pinion brake and all the cables.

That 10 speed would be cool.

Double check the model number. Alot of transmissions can come direct or overdrive in the highest gear.

 

[Mr P]

I am researching pinion brakes, but don't even know what vehicles had them.

Trans numbers indicated a .74 OD in 10th. Seller has agreed to $300 for it.

Salvage yard wants $350 for the clutch housing, $75 for the shift tower.
Rock auto has the flywheel for $180.

Looking for deal on a pull type clutch....

 

[Mr P]

In a pinch, find a diff with a pinion brake and all the cables.

Losing transmission mount parking brake poses the problem. Possible solutions:

1) Adapting said parking brake to the larger transmission.
2) Adapting a pinion brake
3) Adapting mechanical calipers IN ADDITION to the calipers in the rear. There is plenty of space and several flange bolts to mount to..

Just thinking outside the box.