Manual swap: big trans to dt466 mechanical

[Omnibot2000]

Losing transmission mount parking brake poses the problem. Possible solutions:

1) Adapting said parking brake to the larger transmission.
2) Adapting a pinion brake
3) Adapting mechanical calipers IN ADDITION to the calipers in the rear. There is plenty of space and several flange bolts to mount to..

Just thinking outside the box.

It could be possible, generally there is a smallish tail housing depending on the transmission, you may need to reconfigure your brake drum to mount as the yoke/flange is likely different. By the time you get into machining and cost you may just find a whole different different diff with pinion brake. Maybe something with a different gearing that can roll in and out.

When I left the bus garage all the CE200's moved the brake to the diff. They did come with that dumb air apply system that replace the hand cable but that would be easy enough to get a cable made up, be long though. Nice thing you could regear to something nicer.

 

[Omnibot2000]

Just a thought....

You could also go with a 7 speed eso66-7b transmission, synchronized and they can come with park brake hanging off the rear. That is also an overdrive unit. might be less invasive and more of a bolt in. Have not looked at the specs of it.

 

[Mr P]

Does anyone know if a semi transmission is supported by a mount/crossmember?

My Allison weighed 300 lbs and just hung from the engine, the 10 speed weighs about 600. I figure it needs some support (if I can get it shoehorned into the clutch).

 

[Omnibot2000]

Does anyone know if a semi transmission is supported by a mount/crossmember?

My Allison weighed 300 lbs and just hung from the engine, the 10 speed weighs about 600. I figure it needs some support (if I can get it shoehorned into the clutch).

They do and don't. It depends who manufacture of the truck is.

Often when they do; it is a spring seen attached. Often they break without notice by the driver but I have changed them when I find them broken on clutch jobs. The point is the transmission does not fall out.

See pic. This spring would be off a Kenworth.

 

[Mr P]

Thank you very much.

My 10 speed is taller, enough so that a large crossmember is in the way of trans installation into the clutch. I lifted the front of the engine to tilt it and allow a tilted trans to install, then raise up in front of that crossmember. My trans jack is leaking making accuracy nearly impossible.

I'm probably gonna cut out the section of floor above the trans due to lack of clearance with the top of the trans, and the fact it will need a hole for the shifter tower.

Oh, the muffler was in the way of install too. Will it fit if I can get the trans in? Time will tell.

Moral: after finding the correct clutch housing, flywheel, flywheel bolts (M12-1.25 x 40) I thought I could bolt it all together in a few hours. WRONG. Still fighting it.

 

[Omnibot2000]

Thank you very much.

My 10 speed is taller, enough so that a large crossmember is in the way of trans installation into the clutch. I lifted the front of the engine to tilt it and allow a tilted trans to install, then raise up in front of that crossmember. My trans jack is leaking making accuracy nearly impossible.

I'm probably gonna cut out the section of floor above the trans due to lack of clearance with the top of the trans, and the fact it will need a hole for the shifter tower.

Oh, the muffler was in the way of install too. Will it fit if I can get the trans in? Time will tell.

Moral: after finding the correct clutch housing, flywheel, flywheel bolts (M12-1.25 x 40) I thought I could bolt it all together in a few hours. WRONG. Still fighting it.

send pics, it will be very cool to see this all in. you will have a crazy cool set up with 10 gears.

in the end the SAE housing is a pretty beefy piece of iron. Now was yours designed to hang 600lbs of it with no support. I cannot say. I have never crossed part numbers to see if international had a housing designed specifically for what your doing.

Other thought that comes to mind is the engine mounts, is your current mounts designed to support the extra 600lbs hanging off the back? I don't know.

It may sound like I'm back tracking here but to answer your question, do transmissions have supporting members. They do and they don't. It all depends on the powertrain set up and manufacturer.

To be better safe then sorry, you could make a member to support the extra weight.

That spring that I showed a picture of, each end sits on bracket in the shape of a piece of angle iron that is bolted on the inner side of the frame rail. on each end of the spring MIGHT have wearable plastic wear pad. occasionally they get replaced but they were cheap and easy. In the center of that spring there would be two 3/4 inch holes. One would take some 3/4 inch bolts(15/16 wrench head) and run that spring down into the trans housing. the spring would flex essentially carrying weight off the sae housing and rear engine mounts. The spring would deflect when bolted down to the housing at least an inch if not more but that is thinking back 20+ years ago. Everything I work on now has Alison 4000 series transmissions for the most part.

If you look on top of your transmission housing, do you see 2x3/4 national coarse threaded holes on top? if you do you can incorporate this spring I refer about to pick up some of the weight.

For the spring that I am referring about, search a 1998 Kenworth T800. The fleet I worked on back in the day had Cummins N-14's with 13 speed transmissions. I'm sure they came with other set ups but we ran the same powertrain on the 150+ trucks we had.

Hope this helps and makes sense.

 

[Omnibot2000]

Here is a picture to where your trans MIGHT have these threaded holes to mount the support spring.

On another note, these springs come in different designs depending on the height of the transmission when installed in the truck. I have seen these springs also resting each end on the top frame flange as well. Just do a google search for transmission support spring

 

[Mr P]

Sorry, I'm pic free.


My trans does have those bolts holes, and I'm thinking about the things you mentioned. I'm planning to give it some flexible support in the neighborhood of a few hundred pounds worth.

But first, I've gotta get the trans in. Due to it's nearly interference fit against the floor board braces, I'm planning to remove that section of floor. For that, I'm now removing the electrical/switch panel and heater box (that I had planned on not touching).

Mission creep. Urrghh.

 

[cadillackid]

the allison MT643 is about 700 lbs with the torque converter.. on the DTA360 and DT466 engines using SAE2 bell it is designed to be supported solely by the bell housing mounts (at least on a conventional bus). so weightwise on the engine mount you should be fine.. the manufacturer of your transmission would likely have guidelines on whether the transmission is designed to be bell-supported or requires a secondary brace..

 

[cadillackid]

Sorry, I'm pic free.


My trans does have those bolts holes, and I'm thinking about the things you mentioned. I'm planning to give it some flexible support in the neighborhood of a few hundred pounds worth.

But first, I've gotta get the trans in. Due to it's nearly interference fit against the floor board braces, I'm planning to remove that section of floor. For that, I'm now removing the electrical/switch panel and heater box (that I had planned on not touching).

Mission creep. Urrghh.

on some busses you can slip the heater box out from under the switch anel and the panel stays in.(you have to of course fish the wires for the motors in that box through).. my carpenter and superior are both that way.. bluebird is not..

 

[Omnibot2000]

the allison MT643 is about 700 lbs with the torque converter.. on the DTA360 and DT466 engines using SAE2 bell it is designed to be supported solely by the bell housing mounts (at least on a conventional bus). so weightwise on the engine mount you should be fine.. the manufacturer of your transmission would likely have guidelines on whether the transmission is designed to be bell-supported or requires a secondary brace..

Hmmmm.....Good thought that never crossed my mind. The SAE housing maybe fine but the bell on the transmission not so. That would explain why the trans. housing incorporated the threaded holes to support some weight off the bell. The wonderful world of figuring out why engineers did what they did and for what reason.

 

[Mr P]

I pulled the switch panel and heater box. Pulled the "flooring" to expose the metal floor. I had initially intended to leave all that alone.

Getting ready to cut the floor above where the trans will be. I rigged some new seals into the previously leaky trans jack that frustrated me yesterday. It's down to a small leak now, gonna cut the floor and try to stab the transmission while the shop and bus are warm.

 

[cadillackid]

Hmmmm.....Good thought that never crossed my mind. The SAE housing maybe fine but the bell on the transmission not so. That would explain why the trans. housing incorporated the threaded holes to support some weight off the bell. The wonderful world of figuring out why engineers did what they did and for what reason.

whats interesting is engineers had to build transmissions and bell housing to mount up to all kinds of engines.. for instance all of the allison transmissiopns have secondary threads at the back of or just behind the bell.. gasoline engines were never mounted on a cradle like the diesels.. they were old school.. the motor mounts only supported the front and middle of the engine but not the back.. so it was up to the transmission to hold up the rear..



both of my diesel busses original AT545's hung by the bell.. my 1978 Superior wit ha gas engine.. (still SAE3).. requires secondary mounts.. thus the holes in the rear side of the bell for bolts on All At545's.. engineers wanted to make one case that could be used for all..



and ultimately the only real way to tell what was intended is to look at the service manual for a vehicle that uses said engine and transmission..



custom building leaves a lot to be figured out.. ive done it my whole life.. reverse and re-engineer.. after all a 2008 ford F350 was never built with a DT466 mechanical and a 6 speed allison.. yet guys are building them..


so often its a case of educated guessing and common sense..

 

[sportyrick]

Allison 3060

I removed the DT466 with transmission still attached and installed it in my bus exactly the same way as in the IH truck. Mid mounts on bellhousing and front mount on engine. It did have a helper spring on the rear of the tranny so I installed that also because that dang 3060 Allison is bigger than the engine. I just guessed how much weight to pull off the bell housing joint, I probably put a couple hundred pounds on the spring. If you consider frame flex any help is better than nothing. You can see in the pic that the whole thing is hanging by the mid mounts, the rear spring is not in pic and bolts up to three top bolts in the tailhousing, also you can see my potentiometer that has a cable running to it from the throttle WTec 2.

 

[cadillackid]

the mid mounts are on the engine housing and not on the trsnsmission bell. the transmission separates from the engine behimd those mounts (the 12 bolts on the SAE2 bell)..

 

[Mr P]

I did get the input into the pilot bearing...finally. Trans is "bolted up" and hanging from the engine until I can get a rear mount (flexible, rubber mounted hopefully) fabricated. The neighbor has a semi with a 10 speed with no rear mount. But I'll feel better with something back there to hold up a few hundred pounds.


I'm working on clutch linkage. I bought the pedal and all other linkage from a mid 80s International truck. Had to mod the pedal pivot and it's offset, and now it appears the stroke of the clutch fork is a little short. Gotta double check clutch adjustment, then "regear" the linkage.

Also starting to ponder on how to adapt from a 2.75" output shaft yoke to a little school bus driveshaft.

I've also got kids pulling the bolts out of the seat mounting tracks while the bus is in a borrowed shop with concrete floor and heat when we work. Might as well take full advantage of the situation!

 

[cadillackid]

a good driveshaft shop shou;d be able to fit a new yoke on the driveshaft side so you can bolt it up to the 10 speed yoke..

 

[Mr P]

This Meritor 10 speed uses electric soleniods to control air to shift the "high/low" range. My trans came with the solenoids, but not the shifter or harness. I bought a single pole/double throw switch, brought power to the neutral switch, to the SPDT switch, then to the solenoids, to ground. I briefly powered it up and...smoke. The solenoid connector was beginning to melt, obviously too much current.

Upon looking at the diagram of the system, the shift handle may have a solenoid in series with that power supply. I cannot find any description of the handle or electric specs, other than "12 volt".

Frustrating. I think I can put a resistor in the circuit to keep the amperage down.

https://graphicvillage.org/meritor/TP-0776.pdf

 

[Omnibot2000]

Looks like you need a dtdp switch but can't see why a spst can't work.

Just run a ground to the B on each solenoid. Your switch will have power and send it to the solenoids.

With that said. Even up till 1.5 years ago. The trucks I worked on was only air operated.

You have a shorted shift solenoid?

 

[Mr P]

The solenoid is not shorted. I'm wired like you suggest, which caused smoke. My SPDT switch is fine....but I ASSUME the factory shift handle includes a winding in series with the switched power. I hate ASSUMING, but I can't find any good diagnostic info (other than plug up a special tool to the shifter in order to test it).