Need advice - bus at risk in Canton, OH.

[mleinbach]

Hey folks -

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm a van guy and don't convert busses in the traditional sense. That said, I also run a nonprofit that does convert buses. We turn them into mobile adventure programs and use them to take kids and groups of all kinds camping. So we keep some seats, but put in a ton of storage and a little work space and the like. Y'all have kept us on the road many a time with posts here around wiring, insulation, basic repairs, and lifestyle - we're on the road a lot.

What we do is pretty in demand, so we found ourselves in need of more buses this year. We got some at an auction out in NC - the bodies were awesome, rust free, under 70,000 miles. Both 2004 International ICs. One made it back to Wisconsin, but not the other.

After a solid day of driving, above 55mph the other would peter out and decel until the engine shut down. We traced it to a fuel pump leak. Got that fixed, went to pick it up - same issue. Bus was now blowing blue smoke every time the issue kicked in. Brought it back to the shop.

They transferred it to another shop that's declared it dead. Piston issue, apparently. They're quoting $26K for an engine replacement, which seems wild. It's a bummer. The bus body is in great shape, it's a good transmission, but it's states away and we're a nonprofit and can't stomach that cost. Looks like we may have to scrap it - but I figured I'd come here first. What would you do? Any tips? Anyone near Canton with a local mechanic who might do it for cheaper, or who would want it yourself? Seems a shame.

Just looking for advice (or commiseration).

 

[Mr P]

I'm a 30 year car mechanic, with some diesel experience. Have you described an intermittent problem? Piston damage is NOT intermittent.

 

[mleinbach]

Started intermittent, but by time we went to pick it up after the first fix it would go for about 10-15 minutes before puttering out again. First time we drove it it was fine for several hours over two days, then it started to give us trouble. That's when we found the fuel leak. That got fixed, we picked it up a few weeks later, and still had the decel issue every 15 minutes - but that only kicked in after an hour of issue-free driving. Then it wouldn't go away, and we limped it back to the shop.

 

[nikitis]

Do the blow by cap test. Unscrew the top oil cap turn it upside down and lay on on the hole Does the cap blow off? (Not vibrate off but blow off) Sometimes they vibrate off and that's not an indication, it has to blow off. If it sits there and does not blow off, you shouldn't have blow by.

It could be some bad injectors as well potentially which is a much cheaper fix. Many shops just replace now, they don't inspect or fix as often anymore. I would always get a second opinion or maybe a 3rd and 4th opinion today with the way these shops operate. And let them know you want a fix, not a replacement up front before they do their analysis, cause otherwise they are always gonna suggest the replace because it's less hours for them.

 

[Mr P]

And blow by from a single piston/cylinder will be a puff.....puff.....puff....noticeably different than if all cylinders are leaking which would be a much more steady volume of blow by.

 

[nikitis]

The reason I suggested injectors because with the smoke it could be the cylinders filling up more than they should flooding it causing the excess smoke.

 

[ewo1]

You forgot to tell us all what engine your problem bus has so I am making the assumption it is a DT466E.
I looked at the EGES-215 diagnostic manual and pulled 2 sheets for you to read. It give a bit of an overview on certain conditions that can make an engine smoke.

I do not want to accept right now your engine is toast because you have provided no info that says it is true.
You also indicated that this is an intermittent issue (smoke blowing) when the engine derates and not a constant issue as in it happens ALL the time while engine is running.

Also helpful are codes...did the shop pull codes and if so, what are/were they ? Codes help tell a picture.

Here are the pages for the manual and if you want a copy of the manual go to this link -> International Engine Manuals.

 

[mleinbach]

Thanks folks, this is helpful. I've fiddled on engines, but not a mechanic by any stretch, and suspect we're getting a "we just don't want to do it" price. Trying to figure out if I can get it elsewhere and save the bus, or if scrap is my best bet. This will give me some good ammunition for the conversation as I call around.

Engine is the DT466E.

 

[cadillackid]

sounds to me like an injector was overfueling, dropped the rail pressure to the others.. broke or melted a piston... just surmising here.. a compression test is the real thingto do.. piston issue will show up as low compression in a cylinder

 

[Mr P]

Cranking sound would reveal a catastrophic piston failure....even compression on all cylinders results in the typical ruh ruh ruh ruh cranking sound. One cylinder with less compression and one "ruh" becomes quicker (because cranking speed increases).

Disable injectors and crank over.

Compare cranking sound to your bus that runs well.

 

[ewo1]

I would ask the shop to be specific in there answers, explain to you the test procedures used that moved them to say engine is toast. Just saying we have seen this before or or even heard a mechanic say " I know what I am doing" only to find out, he don't!

Don't get caught up in the "I am in a jam" moment because when you say that in the heat of the moment you might NOT be thinking clearly on a way forward.

How much blue smoke is it pumping out?
Only on engine de-rate or all the time?
What codes did they pull?
Pull codes again, refreshed not historical.
Does it smoke at idle, before you begin driving it around?
Have they ruled out injector cups, o-rings and anything else that maybe would let oil pass when it shouldn't?

Have they tested and inspected the injector assembly for that cylinder and if so, do they have any pics for you to look at?
Several issues can cause blue smoke, however, the most common ones would be worn valve guides, valve seals or piston rings/cylinder seal being broken.
A compression test as suggested by Cadillackid would for sure be helpful in diagnosing the engine.

It is hard to trust a mechanic shop when you are in a bad spot. Hard to tell if they are just taking advantage of you in hopes you dump the bus in there laps. think about it, you dump it, they fix it real cheap, sell the bus and pocket the money! Real sad to say this but this does happen.... !

$26 grand for an engine swap is just insane.... for that kind of money I would have it transported to a shop/mechanic your familiar with and then address repairs more calmly.

 

[mleinbach]

Thanks all - this has been super helpful. I'm getting one of my go-to mechanics to call in and dig into the testing they did based on your guidance.

We have a salvage option that works, but think we have a plan to get it to a trusted shop a few hours away, who will fix it slowly over time at low cost. If they can't do it, we'll go ahead and retire this guy. Bummer for us, but all part of the process.

Appreciate all the insights so far!

 

[Mr P]

If you could give an update in the future that knowledge could benefit others.